I want to use 2H backbar on my Tank, help

MrBrownstone

Ok here are my issues:

I hate using a staff on my Tank. I also can't bother with grinding every skill line since it's not my main character. I just want to use a 2H axe on backbar. It's already maxed because PvP. This character already gave me tons of trouble since I want to use him in PvP too. I put all my points into Stamina instead of Health and then struggled reaching 35k hp.

Now I want to frontbar Yolnahkriin (Yeah I hate Alkosh and want to stop using that DD set). I don't push scores so I don't think I have to chase the perfect build. But still I do serious content like Vet HMs and I want to be as efficient as possible while also using the build I like.

Stampede is getting buffed to become a reilable way to apply Crusher so I feel like backbarring a 2H weapon will no longer be the noob move. I also have a nice Stamina pool and I was hoping that I can use the Maelstrom 2H to provide a little more damage for the group.

Can anyone compare their advantages/disadvantages? As far as I know I'm losing only two things: Off-balance support and instant mob pull.

Thanks.

Cavedog

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Olupajmibanan

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Any solid tank is S&B + Destro staff. Usually Frost, but more confident tanks tend to run Lightning.

And for OP. It is possible to run 2H as back bar weapon,but don't do that with anything other than DK or Warden. Since you are running dungeons, you will need reliable AoE immobilize or snare. Since you won't be running Frost Staff, you don't have acces to Blockade of Frost, so you have to be a DK or Warden in order to have acces to class AoE immobilize (Talons, Gripping Shards). Sorc has his class AoE immobilize as well, but the class itself has other serious tanking issues.
Also, both warden and DK have their own class mob pulls that cost magicka, which is very big advantage.

Also don't worry with off balance because it is provided by healers anyways. Unless you run 3DD + tank run, it won't be a problem.

Ahashra

I've got a sorc tank from launch and a warden tank. Have dabbled at points with various back bars - they just don't work unless it's 1h or frost staff.

Tanks in general are in a strange place ATM IMO because I think it's very easy to gear up and max out a good tank build, but there's not a lot of variety.

You can afford to dabble so far away, for example with warden, but not as far away as using 2h. I'm talking reaching the point where you can comfortably tank anything and then investing points into, say, extra damage, etc.

Point being, all the time you spend dabbling as a tank is pointless because it will never multiply up to what a DPS can do. Most you can hope for is killing things half as fast solo or reflecting some damage back whilst blocking.

darkblue5

New Stampede morph puts a ground AOE DOT... which will proc Crusher while you're on your front bar.

msalvia

Cavedog wrote: »

Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

This hasn't been true in almost a year. You NEED a 2h weapon to apply the full crusher, ideally a frost staff.

And tanks are hybrid toons. You use mag and stam, and you're not using any abilities that scale to stam/mag in a meaningful way. This post comes across as either 1) inexperienced, or 2) someone who hasn't tanked in the past 12 months.

And I don't know if stampede is gonna replace Wall of ELements. WoE applies maim, can immobilize and keeps crusher up. Bow keeps crusher up better, but doesn't apply maim or immobilize. 2handed melee is just straight-up a bad choice for tanking. What benefit does it grant? You sure aren't doing damage as a tank, so why have a damage weapon?

msalvia

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

zvavi

@MrBumblefoot ok. Dont listen to party poopers. Tank the way you want. The only reason i swapped to dk tank in vCR is the fire breath that buffs all the dds, if not for it they would never make me go off my frost/resto nb.

Cavedog

msalvia wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

This hasn't been true in almost a year. You NEED a 2h weapon to apply the full crusher, ideally a frost staff.

And tanks are hybrid toons. You use mag and stam, and you're not using any abilities that scale to stam/mag in a meaningful way. This post comes across as either 1) inexperienced, or 2) someone who hasn't tanked in the past 12 months.

And I don't know if stampede is gonna replace Wall of ELements. WoE applies maim, can immobilize and keeps crusher up. Bow keeps crusher up better, but doesn't apply maim or immobilize. 2handed melee is just straight-up a bad choice for tanking. What benefit does it grant? You sure aren't doing damage as a tank, so why have a damage weapon?

You contradict yourself multiple times in the same post.

Elwendryll

I personally use Lord Warden, Perfected Yolna and Alkosh. 1h/shield front and Bow backbar. You could use Stampede where I use endless hail. Endless hail is nice because it applies crusher on the closest target to its center. I don't know how it works with stampede, what I do know however, is that this ability moves you back to the edge of the enemy hitbox when you use it, and it's really annoying.

You have to be aware that playing like that requires extra management, as you don't want to be caught blocking on your backbar.

You'll not be able to get magicka back from your heavy attacks, so you may want to have a build with an higher magicka regen.

Other than that, your 2H weapon provides a reliable source of crusher enchant, and brawler may possibly be useful on packs of mobs, if you have the bar space.

I personally think that using 2H or bow instead of frost or lightning staff does not make you automatically a noob. If you're a good tank, you know what you're doing, and you're willing to change your playstyle a bit for something funnier and a bit more challenging, I don't see the issue. It may be easier on some classes, because you'll lack some of the tools you get from a destro back.

Cavedog

My guilds kick tanks that show up for trials with a bow or two handed weapons. We talk to them about how to properly tank first, but we don't let them run the trial with a bow or a two handed weapon.

Elwendryll

Cavedog wrote: »

My guilds kick tanks that show up for trials with a bow or two handed weapons. We talk to them about how to properly tank first, but we don't let them run the trial with a bow or a two handed weapon.

Oh, yes, add that to my comment, do whatever you want for dungeons, but not in vet trials, unless you have the agreement of your group.

RavenSworn

Not too sure about all the rest of the people but a 2hander can be used as a back bar, there is now an all access fear which will act as a group aoe CC, Turn Evil. It also gives you minor endurance and You also have Silver leash so you can use both of these abilities to CC and group up mobs.

2handers also have Brawler which gives you a bigger shield when hit with more mobs. Stampede is absolutely able to consistently proc your weapon enchants. It's also a gap closer, good for some (not all, some) Vet HM.

Soul Splitting Trap will do tremendous aoe dot damage and uses magicka. This will help with resource management. Range taunt is already available with Inner Fire.

So lets recap: Inner Fire, Stampede, Turn Evil, Silver Leash, Soul Splitting Trap / Brawler. That's already a full bar, using 2handers with a ranged taunt, aoe cc, chains, aoe dot / damage mitigation. The whole bar also doesnt use a single class ability which means that you can use these on any class.

I have no issues gear wise, use what ever you like. Since you already stated you dont want to be pushing scores, even basic stuff like Imperium or Ebon will work. Also, different classes will give you different ult choices which varies on how you want to play your tank. a Necro ult gen res tank? go for it. A DK warhorn ult gen tank? go for it.

MrBrownstone

Ok then I decided to carry both the staff & 2H. When I'm in serious content, I'm gonna use the staff and when I'm just pugging with randoms I'm gonna use the 2H.

idk

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Top tanks often have a staff on the back bar. They do not put points into the tri-focus passive so it would use magicka for blocking, but they do put points into Ancient Knowledge to improve blocking.

A main reason tanks use a staff back bar put down WoE to keep crusher up full time and now get the full effect of the enchant. I also like having access to Crushing Shock for some trials like vHoF.

The 2H sword and bow are lacking in the same benefits so any serous group would not be very accepting of their use by the tank unless they are an off tank with a dps build. In the same token, OP will be asked to wear certain sets if they are with a decently run group. I have seen groups replace tanks that are more focused on what they want vs what is best for the group because they refuse to change their sets.

MrBrownstone

Which Staff do you recommend? I prefer a frost staff because I don't want to get caught on my backbar and Lightning staff mitigation won't save me. I mean which set? I'll be frontbarring Yolnahkriin so I can be flex about my backbar staff. I don't think there are any arena staves that are useful for tanking tho.

Maybe Willpower for extra pool.

MrBrownstone

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Apparently you don't know how tanking works in this game.

idk

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

Which Staff do you recommend? I prefer a frost staff because I don't want to get caught on my backbar and Lightning staff mitigation won't save me. I mean which set? I'll be frontbarring Yolnahkriin so I can be flex about my backbar staff. I don't think there are any arena staves that are useful for tanking tho.

Maybe Willpower for extra pool.

If you are with a decent group you will use whatever sets you are asked to. I have quite a collection of sets and wear what I am asked to

In other words, I would not get hung up on wearing what you want. It is best to be flexible to what the team wants. Being there are two tanks and you will not always be the main tank you will have to adjust. In other words, I would suggest making sure you have alkosh.

RavenSworn

idk wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Top tanks often have a staff on the back bar. They do not put points into the tri-focus passive so it would use magicka for blocking, but they do put points into Ancient Knowledge to improve blocking.

A main reason tanks use a staff back bar put down WoE to keep crusher up full time and now get the full effect of the enchant. I also like having access to Crushing Shock for some trials like vHoF.

The 2H sword and bow are lacking in the same benefits so any serous group would not be very accepting of their use by the tank unless they are an off tank with a dps build. In the same token, OP will be asked to wear certain sets if they are with a decently run group. I have seen groups replace tanks that are more focused on what they want vs what is best for the group because they refuse to change their sets.

There is no difference in putting down a WoE with a Stampede or EH imo. But, i will say taht having a lightning staff is better for the Concussive debuff, which is much more useful. both Stampede and EH do not reduce the amount of the enchants going on for them, in fact, with the new update coming up, a DW/2H dps can match a DW/bow dps. So take that as you will.

idk

RavenSworn wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

Top tanks often have a staff on the back bar. They do not put points into the tri-focus passive so it would use magicka for blocking, but they do put points into Ancient Knowledge to improve blocking.

A main reason tanks use a staff back bar put down WoE to keep crusher up full time and now get the full effect of the enchant. I also like having access to Crushing Shock for some trials like vHoF.

The 2H sword and bow are lacking in the same benefits so any serous group would not be very accepting of their use by the tank unless they are an off tank with a dps build. In the same token, OP will be asked to wear certain sets if they are with a decently run group. I have seen groups replace tanks that are more focused on what they want vs what is best for the group because they refuse to change their sets.

There is no difference in putting down a WoE with a Stampede or EH imo. But, i will say taht having a lightning staff is better for the Concussive debuff, which is much more useful. both Stampede and EH do not reduce the amount of the enchants going on for them, in fact, with the new update coming up, a DW/2H dps can match a DW/bow dps. So take that as you will.

@RavenSworn

There is a huge difference that I even mentioned in what I posted. You seemed to have glossed over my mention of Ancient Knowledge and that it enhances blocking.

So yea, a tank trying to get into a serious raid group and suggests they can do more dps as you seem to be indicating will get laughed at and kicked to the curb pretty fast. Yes, I do understand not everyone is into vet trials but that is the context of this thread.

Suddwrath

You can absolutely tank with a 2H on your backbar. You can tank with any weapon on your backbar. Want to run DW on your backbar? Go for it! Want to run a resto staff on your backbar? Go for it! When I first started tanking I ran double S&B and tanked vet trials just fine. Never once was I kicked by a group or asked to run a staff on my backbar.

The only time running a lightning staff is encouraged is if your group is going for a high score. But if you and your group are simply going for a clear, then feel free to run whatever you want on the backbar.

“But how will the tank apply crusher to the boss if he’s running a resto staff on the backbar?!” Easily. If they are a DK tank they can apply crusher via Eruption. If they are a warden tank they can apply it via Gripping Shards. If they are a NB tank they can apply it via Twisting Path.

If you do end up going the 2H backbar route, I would suggest that you use the Asylum’s 2H on your backbar for the ulti gen.

Cortimi

Cavedog wrote: »

If the toon is running a two handed weapon, that toon is not a tank. Tanks are s&b both bars in almost all situations.

Hybrid toons in this game don't really work. It's much better to specialize than to try to do more than one role with the same toon.

In the words of our orange overlord: wroooong.
I roll 1h/s and 2h on most tanks. The 2h bar is where my heals are, and I want them have the most WD possible.

It's obvious you have missed the utility of the line, the extra Stam from kills, the antisnare, the burst heal, and the anti stun from the ulti.

Using 2h back bar on a Stam based tank has far more utility than a staff. Literally the only reason "the meta" is to use a staff is for Infused Crusher proc, which....the 2h can do.

kringled_1

SaltySudd wrote: »

“But how will the tank apply crusher to the boss if he’s running a resto staff on the backbar?!” Easily. If they are a DK tank they can apply crusher via Eruption. If they are a warden tank they can apply it via Gripping Shards. If they are a NB tank they can apply it via Twisting Path.

None of those skills will apply enchants. Only weapon skills (for dots, only ground based) and light/heavy attacks.

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

MrBumblefoot wrote: »

Ok here are my issues:

I hate using a staff on my Tank. I also can't bother with grinding every skill line since it's not my main character. I just want to use a 2H axe on backbar. It's already maxed because PvP. This character already gave me tons of trouble since I want to use him in PvP too. I put all my points into Stamina instead of Health and then struggled reaching 35k hp.

Now I want to frontbar Yolnahkriin (Yeah I hate Alkosh and want to stop using that DD set). I don't push scores so I don't think I have to chase the perfect build. But still I do serious content like Vet HMs and I want to be as efficient as possible while also using the build I like.

Stampede is getting buffed to become a reilable way to apply Crusher so I feel like backbarring a 2H weapon will no longer be the noob move. I also have a nice Stamina pool and I was hoping that I can use the Maelstrom 2H to provide a little more damage for the group.

Can anyone compare their advantages/disadvantages? As far as I know I'm losing only two things: Off-balance support and instant mob pull.

Thanks.

As long as you have S&B on front bar for Pierce Armor & Heroic Slash, make sure on the backbar you have Carve with Battle Axe and reduce armour & spell resistance glyph.

Funny enough the effect is the same as by using staff with the same glyph only that the staff has 18m range instead of 7m range. Which is trivial in boss fights. But again, many do not understand how various skills work, and they just blindly play someone else's character/build.

Other skills you might need on back back is razor caltrops for AOE Major Fracture in case there are no stamina DDs in your group using caltrops (that skill got major buff right now), and Inner Beast for range taunt.

Suddwrath

kringled_1 wrote: »

None of those skills will apply enchants. Only weapon skills (for dots, only ground based) and light/heavy attacks.

LOL I was thinking of status effects. You are correct. I think it’s time for some Monday morning coffee

p_tsakirisb16_ESO

msalvia wrote: »

Started a new one direclty responding to OP.

2hander is the sign of a noob tank for a few reasons:

1. It does not proc crusher well (even if stampede applies it, it's worse than both bow and destro staff).
2. Your snb heavies restore stam, you want something that can restore mag (i.e. a frost staff). 2hander brings nothing to your sustain.
3. Blocking with snb (and to a lesser extent frost staff) is doable in hard content. If you get caught blocking on your 2hander bar, you're dead in most hard vet content.
4. 2hander is a damage weapon. Tanks do no damage, and if they do, they're not real tanks. Tanks need utility. Frost staff and SnB offer this UTILITY. Remember a tank needs CC or it's not a tank.
5. Sometimes healers suck, and the tank needs to apply ele drain.
6. Looking at the 2hander skills, I see absolutely nothing that helps a tank. It's all DPS skills. So if you're a serious tank, what is the possible strategic benefit of running a 2 hander? If it's all aesthetics, I can't speak to RP issues.
7. You mention that you want to add damage to the group by using a 2hander. But you don't want to seriously increase group damage by running Alkosh. Are you sure you want to play a tank? You could always just dps...

If I missed something please add. I can see no persuasive reason that 2hander on a tank is anything more than a noob alert (or a pvper).

Few things. Crushing is activated by Carve bleed, and the Heavy Weapons passive if using Battleaxe.

Alkosh is a pile of poo, even for average guild premade groups. As tank you won't get the amount of synergies needed to use Alkosh. And with the nerf to the orbs, and the tedency to run groups with no healer (dungeons) and more DDs in trials these days, you will be lucky to pick 1 synergy per boss. Except if you are Necro where you can trigger your own synergy.
And you contradict your point about Alkosh also on (5) when some healers aren't that good.

You have to be in a serious leaderboard chasing guild to benefit from Alkosh.

As for Elemental Drain, any MA DD worth his salt is using it in rotation, like Sta DDs using Razor Caltrops (Major Fracture).
Also Major Breach is obtained by Tank's Pierce Armour by default.

True 2H while trying to block vet bosses isn't good, but I doubt that matters in this case.
As for staff, I hate them on my tanks hence I do not use it. The missing crushing is pitiful and only for leaderboards chasers, as it shaves off 1 second on boss fights at best. Assuming the DDs are not noobs doing proper 45K rotations

idk

kringled_1 wrote: »

SaltySudd wrote: »

“But how will the tank apply crusher to the boss if he’s running a resto staff on the backbar?!” Easily. If they are a DK tank they can apply crusher via Eruption. If they are a warden tank they can apply it via Gripping Shards. If they are a NB tank they can apply it via Twisting Path.

None of those skills will apply enchants. Only weapon skills (for dots, only ground based) and light/heavy attacks.

True, They have acknowledge it since. But it is why the 2H sword would not work. Bow would but you lack the block cost reduction and damage reduction while blocking which is why the staff is what we tend to use back bar.

But all of this really only matters if you are running with a decent group. Even in training guilds that are serious about helping players develop I still find they ask for this when I fill into help them. If I am doing a fun run in an older trial with skilled players we often do not care much but it is usually a group that can clear it with ease.

D0PAMINE

@idk Have you run the new caltrops on your tank at all? Is WoE still the better option for Crusher b/c of maim or concussion?

idk

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Have you run the new caltrops on your tank at all? Is WoE still the better option for Crusher b/c of maim or concussion?

I cannot see what you are getting to Caltrops should not proc the weapon enchant so it could not be better that the use of any weapon skill.

If you are speaking of fracture being added to Razor Caltrops then it is still missing Breach which is important if you happen to have magika dps in the group. If it is for the increased snare it still would not replace WoE due to the enchant and outside of the enchant proc it is a personal choice outside of what the OP was interested in. Most content none of this really matters as I have seen all sorts of builds successfully tank content like vet dungeons.

If I missed something please say so.

Commancho

Personaly I use 2H asylum for ultimate regeneration.

D0PAMINE

idk wrote: »

D0PAMINE wrote: »

Have you run the new caltrops on your tank at all? Is WoE still the better option for Crusher b/c of maim or concussion?

I cannot see what you are getting to Caltrops should not proc the weapon enchant so it could not be better that the use of any weapon skill.

If you are speaking of fracture being added to Razor Caltrops then it is still missing Breach which is important if you happen to have magika dps in the group. If it is for the increased snare it still would not replace WoE due to the enchant and outside of the enchant proc it is a personal choice outside of what the OP was interested in. Most content none of this really matters as I have seen all sorts of builds successfully tank content like vet dungeons.

If I missed something please say so.

Thanks. I was just confused and thought caltrops would proc crusher as well. I forgot it needs to be a weapon ability. Seems like my setup will do fine with the new update. Appreciate the reply.