Frustrated with the combat system

GrimMauKin · April 2014

I've never played a MMO before, so I'm probably stuck in FPS mode (I'm a huge Skyrim fan), but I am becoming increasingly frustrated with the combat system. Enemies seem to be able to strike whilst visibly out off range and once engaged it seems impossible to break off combat; if you turn and run you continue to be struck (again whilst apparently well out of range), it seems impossible to outrun anything as everything seems to run at the same rate irrespective of size, weight, armour etc. (so enemies continue to strike as you run) and your enemies never seem to run out of stamina, while of course you do, so always catch you up. Despite skill lines etc. hand to hand combat really just seems to boil down to standing toe to toe swiping at each other; if you make a mistake and pick on something too powerful, you are going to get killed.

Missile combat is a bit odd too as it appears to be apparently impossible to miss with a bow.

Another frustration is use of terrain (a key part in tactics). In Skyrim I played a Ranger type character, skilled with a bow) and spent time learning how to climb cliffs and acquire a secure platform for shooting; in TESOL if I do this and shoot from a high point my target's health simply regenerates to full after a couple of hits and becomes impossible to kill (and if you shoot from stealth mode, irrespective of skill, cover or the way the enemy is facing, you target instantly knows where you are and coming charging towards you after the first hit which gets us back into the "you can't outrun anything" issue). I've had similar issues in hand to hand combat where I've backed up a hill to gain an advantage, if the enemy 'decides' that it can't/won't make it up the hill, its health returns to full again and it wanders off.

The combat experience is not enhanced by the fact that TESOL occasionally seems to ignore key strokes/mouse clicks during combat leaving my character unable to fight or defend for several seconds.

I am really enjoying TESOL and hopefully, as I become more attuned to the system (which feels more turn based like Dragon Age that FPS) I'll begin to develop TESOL tactics, but currently I can't help feeling that combat feels far too much like an arcade game and lends itself to tanking rather than tactical thinking.

Tiyamel · April 2014

sorry got halfway through that wall of text and my eyes began to bleed, lol, anyway it would seem you get this issue in PvE mainly? i know exactly how you are playing as i played skyrim same way, trying to hide up a rocky hill so melee mob cant hit you but you can with range? problem is with an MMO things are a bit different, the mobs have to have an "area" that it fights in, if you run it follows so far and then has to give up, other wise you could train mobs to wipe out other players, not very nice, that and it would be hard on the game if all mobs could follow you wherever you run, imagine how much processing power that would take, point is, you need to change tactics, you just cant play this game like skyrim

Xionar · April 2014

There are some escape abilities in the game that exist...however they're not entirely common. Sorcerers have bolt escape, which should give them a rather large head start when trying to escape any combat situation. Nightblade has stealth, though not sure entirely how well it works to get away, even though it could be chained together for quite awhile. Templars and DK's I think are usually screwed when it comes to escaping, so they always feel a bit more like they have to tank...because they're likely not getting away from anything anytime soon.

I consider the game more of an fps than turn based :P, if the skills had actual cooldowns I'd consider calling it turn based. Since they don't...if you manage your resources well, there is no "turns" really. If you don't manage them well, you have to wait for your resources to return before you do more, which could make it feel almost turn based. Part of the skill however is managing this to best efficiency, and takes time to learn and build around it.

In regards to PvE..the only tactical thinking you'll really find is key use of interrupts, dodges and movements, and not, find ground where the mobs can't path to me. While you can stand there and take their damage if you want...moving, interrupting, and ccing is often the better strategy, and does require some thinking and awareness.

Missile combat I dislike as well, since everything curves quite a bit, I understand why it does have some auto aim...as most people aren't going to have good aim in an mmo...however to completely change directions and still hit an npc after it dodged is very bad and should be looked at. The same happens with you dodging npc missiles, just not good...even though I still like using them.

I think you'll be fine once you get used to the different nuances of the system

Rev Rielle · April 2014

Yes (and in addition to what's already been said above), unfortunately a lot of it is simply due to the nature of MMOs and the fact that you're playing online on a server - sometimes - several 1000's of kilometers away. That brings with it latency, which in turn lugs a full suitcase of assorted problems and mechanical impossibilities that you simply don't experience when playing a single player game.

Altheina · April 2014

Many of the problems TS stated could have been avoided if TESO was utilizing non targeting system for its combat(just like the single player counterpart).

However, since this is not going to happen, I would suggest TS to improvise and try getting use to the combat mechanics. LOSing behind rocks work provided you hide behind the rock before the enemies execute their ranged projectiles as I believe that the hit detection happens the moment a skill is triggered instead when it lands on the target.

UrielX · April 2014

Leashing (mobs returning to spawn point and/or regening) is to prevent ledging. Some of the older MMOs (for a while) had ledging... where you were able to kill mobs much much higher level by just shooting them with a bow, from a spot they couldn't hit you.

In single player games that's not much of an issue, but in an MMO it's a pretty obvious a balance requirement.

DanteYoda · April 2014

While i echo a lot of what players are saying here and agree, the combat in this game is honestly turning me away, i've played hundreds of mmo's and obviously nearly all the TES games but the combat in this is very bad.

Its hard to explain why but i'll try, the targeting arrow is diagonal from the character so when i attack the target tends to leave the target over and over so i cannot actually hit the stuff until i realize its not targeting, another thing is multiple mobs get in the way so its almost impossible to hit the one you started on and they can all hit you at once..

On top of all that there seems to be some odd delay to my skills and lag of some sort in instances and phase areas, being Australian i enter a blue circle to kill say a boss or loot something and i instantly feel a delay sometimes up to 2sec.. on skills and attacks..

Many deaths and money wasted, i almost wish for tab targeting..I thought id get used to the combat by now but its just not been the case.

Meogi · April 2014

I found the dodge double tap to be a hit and miss before I discovered that I can change the waiting time between the two strokes in settings.

You might want to look at the sorcerer class; you can have a -somewhat- tanky pet to take the hits for you, while you can be away from melee combat. In addition, sorcerer has some nice CC skills, so that you can keep one mob out of action while you and your pet beat their friend to a pulp.

I also advice you to start with easier quests at the beginning; I don't know whether you discovered that you can go to the original beginner zones from your starting area?

Gaudrath · April 2014

Practice. Before long you'll get used to it and will be happily dancing around 3 mobs at a time, stunning and interrupting, knocking them down and slicing them into little bits.

My first day I couldn't hit a melee target half the time. You get used it though - I hardly ever miss now.

As for escaping, that's what CC is for. Always have some sort of CC on your bar. Hard CC is best, since it allows you to run well outside their range by the time they get back up. Soft CC, like snares also allows you to run away from your enemies.
CC is also immensely useful in every fight. If they can't hit you, all the better, right?

Use quickslot items.

If you have problems with surviving harder fights, consider restoration staff in the secondary weapon slot. Or if you're a Templar, put a healing spell on your bar - I always have one handy.

Not 100% sure about this one, but it seems mobs hit you harder from behind than front. Don't let them get behind you. Might be just my imagination on the damage thing, but it's good sense not to allow yourself to be surrounded.

And finally, openers. Now, I sometimes just charge into a clump of mobs if I want a bit of a challenge and a harder fight, but if you sneak and use a bow or backstab, a nice opener will save you a lot of gems. Opening from range is an obvious advantage.

Khazaad · April 2014

@GrimMauKin‌ lol. dude, just play. most of the things you're asking about wouldn't be very valuable in explanation but are priceless in practice.

You could give an explanation to someone on how to swim (or how not to drown) but it's meaningless without the personal experience in the water.

Mobs in MMOs play by different rules because allowing them to be exploited (like you probably did trying to snipe them while making AI pathfinding confused) would make the game unviable.

I'm very happy to hear you're just picking up MMOs. If you don't love them already, you will and soon you'll be here bitching about the imbalanced stat theory involved with top tier pvp grear or what not.

Censorious · April 2014

OK, practical advice:-

First and most important, go to 3rd person view. First person is useless for combat, especially against multiple enemies. Read on to see why.

Don't EVER run away directly. Once your enemy is out of sight behind you you have no idea when to block or dodge. You can't outrun anything, don't even try. Most enemies have some way to slow you down anyway.

Second most important: Learn to kite. You run away sideways. The mob (or a human player for that matter will not be able to turn at the same rate and you can dance in circles, leading him on. He won't be able to hit you while you are doing that but you will be able to make little turn-ins and loose off a shot. You can kite several mobs at once with practice. It's tricky where there are things in the way but you can learn to use stuff to run around.
This came favours kiting to the left because of the offset target point, but you should practice both left, right and figure-of-eight moves.
Another version of that involves running through enemies - but that's been screwed in this game by the collision mechanic. (stupid RP-ers

) (still works in Cyrodiil against players though)

MMOs are designed so that you can't 'cheat' in combat by getting into an unreachable position and killing from safety. If you retreat to a safe position, the mob is entitled to restart the encounter by resetting. It's only fair.

knightblaster · April 2014

As others have said, MMOs are designed so that you can't kill a mob if you are in a position where they can't fight back effectively -- like a sniper position. This is done for game balance reasons. The mobs will generally reset their health quickly if you are attacking them that way. So if you're deadset on using sniping as one of your main tactics, you'll be frustrated in an MMO setting.

Otherwise, a key to this game is CC. This is a very heavily CC-oriented game from the combat perspective. You need to have at least one CC on your hotbar at all times, and preferably a "hard" CC like a stun or knockdown, rather than a "soft" CC like a snare. You absolutely need to become proficient at applying and reapplying CCs while on the move and attacking the non-CC'd mobs. Takes a bit of practice, but can be done.

GrimMauKin · April 2014

I get the idea that sniping from a unreachable position can be abused (but would it be too much to expect the AI to disengage or respond with missile attacks) but any game can be abused if that's your intention. There's nothing to stop high level characters repeatedly dispatching respawning foes; I've already seen threads complaining about players 'camping out' to repeatedly dispatch bosses to harvest treasure and experience.

I can't help feeling that the way the system limits the use of terrain, cover and positioning limits certain types of play and biases everything even more towards heavily armoured tanks.

Meogi · April 2014

GrimMauKin wrote: »

I get the idea that sniping from a unreachable position can be abused (but would it be too much to expect the AI to disengage or respond with missile attacks) but any game can be abused if that's your intention. There's nothing to stop high level characters repeatedly dispatching respawning foes; I've already seen threads complaining about players 'camping out' to repeatedly dispatch bosses to harvest treasure and experience.

I can't help feeling that the way the system limits the use of terrain, cover and positioning limits certain types of play and biases everything even more towards heavily armoured tanks.

well, if your objective is to kill stuff without taking damage, then yes.

If your objective is to enjoy the story, any build will do. Personally, I have opted for a healing/dps hybrid Nightblade. I do fine, but I need to watch how many mobs I pull and where I go. Sneak attack and block is my friend, and I use it, a lot. I enjoy the challenge and I don't really care that the tanky type can just run in and don't need the bonus from the sneak attack/potion with extra crit.

Personally, I don't camp a boss spawn for loot. It seems like the most silly grind, again, the benefits (more loot to learn traits from/gold) doesn't out weight the disadvantage: boring.

About bots, they are another story, and I report them when I discover them in action.