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Vigor on PTS
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Muzzick✭✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Ragnaroek93 wrote: »My tooltip on live server: 12,4k
Tooltip on pts: 10,7k
Glad to see that medium armor got compensated for the nerf to Rally... oh wait...
Meanwhile dots are in the 30k tooltip territory
Yeah this is crazy @ZOS_GinaBruno can we get some kinda dev statement on this? Normal builds are showing at best about a 6% increase in healing. Something really isn’t right. Medium armor is going to be trashed even more than it is now?
This happens when you listen to some crybabies who cheese tooltips with Cyro keep buff, Mending, Vitality etc but never show up to test their actual trash builds in a realistic environment. Medium armor was far away from being op before the vigor nerf already but whatever...
Devs listen to them because they can't bother to play the game themselves. They just read the forums then throw crap at the wall hoping something sticks.3 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.7 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.
And now you do the same. Quite obviously if devs won't fix current imbalance between RR, Vigor and unavoidable overpowered dots, PVP will be unplayable and corrective actions will be hastily taken to nerf your precious templar, like only class which can both purge those dots by clearly overloaded ability and protect themselves against onslaught combos through another OP ability, which existence looks very strange after wings were ditched for similar effect.8 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.
And now you do the same. Quite obviously if devs won't fix current imbalance between RR, Vigor and unavoidable overpowered dots, PVP will be unplayable and corrective actions will be hastily taken to nerf your precious templar, like only class which can both purge those dots by clearly overloaded ability and protect themselves against onslaught combos through another OP ability, which existence looks very strange after wings were ditched for similar effect.
Cry more. I've never asked for anything to be nerfed. I've always just taken changes as they come. Not happy about them, but I made them work. But you Stamina players were relentless this time. So I engaged in your same behavior. Karma at its finest. Take your changes and make them work same as us magicka players.
p.s. If you think templars are going to be so overpowered, then roll one. Grass is always greener, isn't it.2 -
labambao✭✭✭✭Did you guys watched their dueling tourney from quake fest?
ZoS just average pvp potatoes who play game once a month. And you talking about understanding etc1 -
LoreToo✭✭✭This is good change. Finally we will see some non-tanky meta. Vigor+rally+vitality pots was too op. Medium builds had toooooooo hight survivability with HoTs, so they nerfed it. And its good.5 -
labambao✭✭✭✭
Absolutely!
P.s. never used pets cause they are useless.
I remember you zerfing me and then call for 1v1 in phisyque necro sorc with matriarch slotted, little liar
Anyway, why you think crop Stam healing twice while boost maghealing almost twice is good change? Can you explain?Edited by labambao on August 7, 2019 6:28AM3 -
RealPhoenix✭✭✭The change to vigor (5.1.0) and the overall change to healing is the right direction. It ensures that overhealing in cyrodiil gets nerfed, helps server performance and discourages faction stacking. However, the nerf to vigor in 5.1.4 is completely overtuned. I do not understand why you (ZOS) first give a statement that "echoing vigor is not performing quite as you want it to" and then you nerf not only echoing, but both morphs into the ground. 28% less healing is a huge nerf and completely overtuned.
I agree that the vigor ticks shown on the forums were very high and maybe a bit overtuned (even though most screenshots obviously were completely unrealistic with major + minor mending, keep buffs, etc etc) - but nerfing by TWENTY EIGHT percent plus taking away the group healing capabilities of resolving vigor is a huge turn-around from what we´ve seen in PTS week 1. Please revise these changes. I think people do not realize how much it will affect small-scale group play aswell by making resolving a self-only option. As I´ve said, I am not against this change in general - but the numbers on PTS 5.1.4 are too low (especially with rapid regen still operating at the same level, while magicka has access to other stuff such as shields, burst heals and various other HoTs). I would have been fine with a 10% nerf for both morphs but 28%? Come on now.
Disclamer: No, I am not a stam-only player.Edited by RealPhoenix on August 7, 2019 8:33AMPC EU - @RealPhoenix | Cyrodiil´s FIST | 1500 CP | Dedicated PvP Player | 36k Achievement Points2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.
And now you do the same. Quite obviously if devs won't fix current imbalance between RR, Vigor and unavoidable overpowered dots, PVP will be unplayable and corrective actions will be hastily taken to nerf your precious templar, like only class which can both purge those dots by clearly overloaded ability and protect themselves against onslaught combos through another OP ability, which existence looks very strange after wings were ditched for similar effect.
Cry more. I've never asked for anything to be nerfed. I've always just taken changes as they come. Not happy about them, but I made them work. But you Stamina players were relentless this time. So I engaged in your same behavior. Karma at its finest. Take your changes and make them work same as us magicka players.
p.s. If you think templars are going to be so overpowered, then roll one. Grass is always greener, isn't it.
I have fully grown fatty breton magplar, not my main, but still I love it for jabs and group utility, I simply don't wanna it becoming OP because this will immediately bring nerfs.
You understand that magplar was blooming last year being amazing class just one small step behind sorcs or nigthblades in various endeavors and so avoided nerf hammer and now it will be in crosshair?
P.S. that "karma at its finest" sounds weird. Sounds like dancing over burnt house of your rich neighbor and so on, cheap way to feel better about yourself looking how others were stomped by circumstances. One of the most pitiful behaviors human being can demonstrate, just ditch it, it looks really bad.
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maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »You understand that magplar was blooming last year being amazing class just one small step behind sorcs or nigthblades
So people said. And yet, after running Cyrodiil day after day, I really didn't find all that many Magplars. But I don't mind, I've played Magplar as my main forever. Through thick and thin, I've adjusted to every change. Time for you to adjust, too. Best wishes.MartiniDaniels wrote: »P.S. that "karma at its finest" sounds weird. Sounds like dancing over burnt house of your rich neighbor and so on, cheap way to feel better about yourself looking how others were stomped by circumstances. One of the most pitiful behaviors human being can demonstrate, just ditch it, it looks really bad.
Thanks! You're a real charm
Very good person. 1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.
Except that I supported magicka builds in this PTS until they droped the 5.1.4 bomb.
Anyways, whoever thinks that medium armor is fine now can gladly come to PTS and proof me wrong (I'll come with magplar, a class which I don't play on live server so it shouldn't be hard to beat me, right?).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.8 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is good change. Finally we will see some non-tanky meta. Vigor+rally+vitality pots was too op. Medium builds had toooooooo hight survivability with HoTs, so they nerfed it. And its good.
Medium armor had too much survivability. That's a good one.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.5 -
maxjapank✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »The changes to vigor are completely acceptable. So funny to see the same Stamina players supporting the nerfs of magicka shields and heals...now going nuts about their own precious vigor. We’ve all be nerfed now. Karma at its finest.
Except that I supported magicka builds in this PTS until they droped the 5.1.4 bomb.
Anyways, whoever thinks that medium armor is fine now can gladly come to PTS and proof me wrong (I'll come with magplar, a class which I don't play on live server so it shouldn't be hard to beat me, right?).
Is it all doom and gloom now? Are stamina in medium armor not viable anymore? May as well quit the game. Nah. I suspect that there will be plenty of players on all classes in all armors doing their thing as always. Chin up!3 -
LoreToo✭✭✭
Absolutely!
P.s. never used pets cause they are useless.
I remember you zerfing me and then call for 1v1 in phisyque necro sorc with matriarch slotted, little liar
Anyway, why you think crop Stam healing twice while boost maghealing almost twice is good change? Can you explain?
I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.
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Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Absolutely!
P.s. never used pets cause they are useless.
I remember you zerfing me and then call for 1v1 in phisyque necro sorc with matriarch slotted, little liar
Anyway, why you think crop Stam healing twice while boost maghealing almost twice is good change? Can you explain?
I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.
How does Dodge Roll prevent you from 30k Entropy and Soul Trap tooltips? Don't pretend that you can dodge every ranged dot spammed on you I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
ku5h✭✭✭✭✭
✭Vigor isnt much different on live vs pts atm, i mean, its just slightly more bursty heal and slightly cheaper, wich would be fine if not for the fact that the HoT from rally is gone and theres gonna be so many dots that are in the 20-30k tooltip dmg that you simply can not heal through anymore, are you trying to murder stamina(medium armor) gameplay ZOS? because thats what you are doing atm..
For comparison my magsorcs rapid regen heals me for 23k health over 5s, my stamblades vigor heals me for 13k over 4s. Add in the fact that this is basicly the only heal (apart from rally wich is available every ~17 seconds) that my stamblade has. My sorc can shield (lol nerfed too) and use healward and dark exhange.
Well you can still Shade, Dodge roll, Block and Cloak (new meta suppressor) compared to your magSorc, that is.
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LoreToo✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
Absolutely!
P.s. never used pets cause they are useless.
I remember you zerfing me and then call for 1v1 in phisyque necro sorc with matriarch slotted, little liar
Anyway, why you think crop Stam healing twice while boost maghealing almost twice is good change? Can you explain?
I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.
How does Dodge Roll prevent you from 30k Entropy and Soul Trap tooltips? Don't pretend that you can dodge every ranged dot spammed on you
This 2 skills can be overheal even with 5.1.4 vigor and trollking and class healing abilities. Lets be realistic - You will never catch more then 9k dot in pvp if you are not potato player. Same as you can overheal poison injection now on live.1 -
artal✭✭✭
Medium armor that potentially can dodge roll will die like flie from 2 undodgeable dots. Heavy armor in which we are being pushed this patch don't have luxury of dodging and blocking wont do anything vs dots.I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.
On mag char class dot + soul trap and entropy is around 90k tooltip range can you enlighten me how medium armor can survive this? To be honest i have no idea how heavy can survive it vs competent mag player.
GDB for healing? Yea its used in such awesome dk builds, only best of the best dks run that skill. Thank you for opening my eyes i just slot that and voila.
Here is proposition, come on pts on any stam class and ill come with mag dot build and show me how well can you heal with all those skills you mentioned.
@artal
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Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »
Absolutely!
P.s. never used pets cause they are useless.
I remember you zerfing me and then call for 1v1 in phisyque necro sorc with matriarch slotted, little liar
Anyway, why you think crop Stam healing twice while boost maghealing almost twice is good change? Can you explain?
I never call ppl 1v1, only zergpush. And yeah,after 5 years i still dont have IP for city runs->sry, but you made a mistake.
Stam healing reduction is good cause current numbers of healing is too high in combination of troll king+vigor+rally+optional class healing ability(such as surge/mushrooms/gdb ect..). This allows stamina users wear standart medium sets(and save medium armor passives/dmg) and still have good survivability by HoTs.
In general there is different sources of dmg mitigation: mag have shields(count it as +hp bar) and some healing from abilities. Stamina have roll dodge, allowing them to mitigate 90% of incoming damage. And lets be honest-rolling nightblades/dks/wardens are too annoying nowdays. Combine this with good amount of self-healing and decent damage=overpowered spec.
How does Dodge Roll prevent you from 30k Entropy and Soul Trap tooltips? Don't pretend that you can dodge every ranged dot spammed on you
This 2 skills can be overheal even with 5.1.4 vigor and trollking and class healing abilities. Lets be realistic - You will never catch more then 9k dot in pvp if you are not potato player. Same as you can overheal poison injection now on live.
Did you test medium armor in 5.1.4 by yourself or are you talking out of your *** right now?I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
artal✭✭✭Ragnaroek93 wrote: »Did you test medium armor in 5.1.4 by yourself or are you talking out of your *** right now?
Well since those two skills combine is 60k+tooltip I don't know what medium armor can do.
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apri✭✭✭✭
Not from me but I can throw in my thoughts about it - it's just thoughts, so take my words with a big grain of salt.^ can we please get an explanation?
I think this whole discussion is too single-sided in this thread. It's merely lead by solo/small-scale PVP players. From my point of view, we must see the changes in a bigger context. ZOS got trapped in their own nerf pit. With the nerf to healing springs and orbs while (initially) buffing vigor same time on PTS, the healing balance in the whole game - not only but in particular in PVE - got out of hand. In several threads was highlighted how much (in particular PVE) healing as a specialized role would suffer under this change. Reports got that far to point out that such a change would terminate the need for healers across the whole game. To save the role of the healer on a grand scale, vigor needed an adjustment.
So I must assume this final vigor change was not introduced with the intention to break PVP or bring it in line with other PVP-oriented heals. It must have been introduced to protect the role of healers against a too easy to use and in relation to other heals too efficient healing ability, casted by any build but the healer who should be the prime provider of heals. And now, now ZOS is in the awkward position to figure out how to deal with PVP next but it's hard to imagine how that might end without several other balance shifts.
ZOS created this dilemma and does not find a quick way out. I understand this change to vigor as a measure of damage control for the game as a whole.
What can be done about it in PVP? If healing becomes an issue, maybe small-scale instead of solo is the answer. With a pocket healer helping out. That might actually be fun, tho I know that it won't please everyone. It might be a workaround for time being tho.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Not from me but I can throw in my thoughts about it - it's just thoughts, so take my words with a big grain of salt.^ can we please get an explanation?
I think this whole discussion is too single-sided in this thread. It's merely lead by solo/small-scale PVP players. From my point of view, we must see the changes in a bigger context. ZOS got trapped in their own nerf pit. With the nerf to healing springs and orbs while (initially) buffing vigor same time on PTS, the healing balance in the whole game - not only but in particular in PVE - got out of hand. In several threads was highlighted how much (in particular PVE) healing as a specialized role would suffer under this change. Reports got that far to point out that such a change would terminate the need for healers across the whole game. To save the role of the healer on a grand scale, vigor needed an adjustment.
So I must assume this final vigor change was not introduced with the intention to break PVP or bring it in line with other PVP-oriented heals. It must have been introduced to protect the role of healers against a too easy to use and in relation to other heals too efficient healing ability, casted by any build but the healer who should be the prime provider of heals. And now, now ZOS is in the awkward position to figure out how to deal with PVP next but it's hard to imagine how that might end without several other balance shifts.
ZOS created this dilemma and does not find a quick way out. I understand this change to vigor as a measure of damage control for the game as a whole.
What can be done about it in PVP? If healing becomes an issue, maybe small-scale instead of solo is the answer. With a pocket healer helping out. That might actually be fun, tho I know that it won't please everyone. It might be a workaround for time being tho.
And yet magicka is allowed to have good self healing and shields. Even with nerfed shields, at least magicka has lots of skills to work with: Rapid Regen, Dampen, Healing Ward with a black rose weapon for example, every mag class has access to these and that's at least something they can work with. Stamina has Vigor and Rally. Both nerfed, not alternatives available. That's nothing you can work with. If they want to trash selfhealing for the sake of PvE healers so let it be. But then make sure to trash selfhealing for literally everyone so that we finally can play another game instead of hoping for ZOS to fix their game.I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.2 -
apri✭✭✭✭
As I said, i doubt that's the root of the changes. I may be wrong but it's sadly true that vigor as it was on PTS would have brought the game into serious trouble in other portions of the game.Ragnaroek93 wrote: »And yet magicka is allowed to have good self healing and shields. Even with nerfed shields, at least magicka has lots of skills to work with
Maybe that would actually be an interesting idea.If they want to trash selfhealing for the sake of PvE healers so let it be. But then make sure to trash selfhealing for literally everyone so that we finally can play another game instead of hoping for ZOS to fix their game.0 -
artal✭✭✭@apri healing ward as it was on PTS would have brought game into serious trouble, yet is not nerfed into oblivion. Rapid regen is double vigor now.
I play both mag and stam and like to see both styles playable, but right now stam is in serious trouble, specially medium armor which just can't outheal this undodgeable dots2 -
Nerftheforums✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As I said, i doubt that's the root of the changes. I may be wrong but it's sadly true that vigor as it was on PTS would have brought the game into serious trouble in other portions of the game.Ragnaroek93 wrote: »And yet magicka is allowed to have good self healing and shields. Even with nerfed shields, at least magicka has lots of skills to work with
Maybe that would actually be an interesting idea.If they want to trash selfhealing for the sake of PvE healers so let it be. But then make sure to trash selfhealing for literally everyone so that we finally can play another game instead of hoping for ZOS to fix their game.
The first vigor they proposed was op af, the one the are trying to pass now is worse than live. We went from op to *** in 3 weeks. Nobody asked for these retardedly super high dots, nobody asked for changes to vigor. Yet here we are, with 30k tooltip dots and 12k tooltip vigors, without any more heals from rally/momentum. What are stamina players supposed to do to heal? We shall all slot troll king, a cancerous piece of set thst isn't exactly the definition of healthy gameplay?
Because honestly I don't see other options rather than crutching on cheese to survive in pvp.Edited by Nerftheforums on August 7, 2019 1:30PM5 -
SilverPaws✭✭✭✭✭@Ragnaroek93 don't bother with @LoreToo... He is zergling that got 2vX by me often
No game knowledge there. 7