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Cheating vs exploits vs addons
worrallj
✭✭✭✭✭
There've been a couple thought provoking threads on what constitutes cheating, and I wanted to clarify some terms that might help us all think about the different gradations of dubious advantage seeking behavior, because I see some inconsistency in how we all think about it.
In particular, I get a little annoyed when folks equate these two terms:
Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
In particular, I get a little annoyed when folks equate these two terms:
Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
6
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daemonios✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This discussion has been going on since 2014. ZOS have said basically nothing on this topic except to confirm that animation cancelling is not considered an exploit. There is no centralised or easy to find place to look up information on what is currently considered a cheat or exploit. Treatment of cheats and exploits is opaque and discussion of disciplinary actions is not allowed. Therefore, and sadly, I don't think it's worth discussing any of this, really. Or rather, I think it's worth discussing, but I don't believe anything will be achieved.6 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭I personally think add-ons are cheating and they just dumb the game down to help people who couldn't otherwise play at that level, but then again I'm a console pleb so I'm totally biased.11 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The difference between the two terms is splitting hairs and really comes down to what Zos says in the end. Some things are pretty obvious and when you exploit something that is pretty obvious not intended then it is usually cheating.
Most players are not dumb. They just try to use excuses when they get caught using something that is pretty obviously an exploit that is cheating. Great example is the vAS+2 exploit. The people even advertised it. Hopefully the ring leaders and those that ran multiple characters through with the exploits are still banned as they deserve it.
But yes, AC is not exploiting and is formally blessed by Zos though some players still falsely try to call it exploiting merely because they do not like it1 for one reason or another.4 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭@idk I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. The difference between them as I defined them is like the difference between not calling up your bank when they make an error in your favor verses hacking into their accounts and cleaning them out. Neither is good but I think that's a huge difference.0
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SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
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Look up the definition of the word "but."
Why mention AddOns in this at all if you didn't think they were related?
Oh, i know, because you think they are, which is wrong. So there's that ...
12 -
Kalante✭✭✭✭✭
✭This discussion has been going on since 2014. ZOS have said basically nothing on this topic except to confirm that animation cancelling is not considered an exploit. There is no centralised or easy to find place to look up information on what is currently considered a cheat or exploit. Treatment of cheats and exploits is opaque and discussion of disciplinary actions is not allowed. Therefore, and sadly, I don't think it's worth discussing any of this, really. Or rather, I think it's worth discussing, but I don't believe anything will be achieved.
With the influx of horrible lag you can barely do animation cancelling so what does it matter lmao. Console barely works as it is. All you can really do in eso in console is to just buy stuff from traders or become a casual showing off their crown crate mounts in cities.Edited by Kalante on August 6, 2019 8:01PM0 -
Thorvik_Tyrson✭✭✭Donny_Vito wrote: »I personally think add-ons are cheating and they just dumb the game down to help people who couldn't otherwise play at that level, but then again I'm a console pleb so I'm totally biased.
I'm sorry, but I do not agree here. I do not consider mod's to be cheating. The ones that I use are mainly quality of life types of issues to me. Most of my mods help with Gathering and crafting, and not actual in game combat.
For example: the mod that I installed last night allows me to filter for what is in my bank or bag when at the crafting table. This is basic functionality that I think the Devs should have put into the game to begin with.
people make mods because of these and similar quality of life issues. It's faster for some people to write the mod themselves (Thanks to all the MOD creators! Much appreciated!) than to wait for ZOS to get around to coding it into the game.
ZOS is finally allowing Multi craft as part of the game.
So Donny, in your book, was the Multi-craft mod a cheat before? but now that ZOS is adding it to the game, it now OK? It was always Ok in my book.18 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The difference between the two terms is splitting hairs and really comes down to what Zos says in the end. Some things are pretty obvious and when you exploit something that is pretty obvious not intended then it is usually cheating.
Most players are not dumb. They just try to use excuses when they get caught using something that is pretty obviously an exploit that is cheating. Great example is the vAS+2 exploit. The people even advertised it. Hopefully the ring leaders and those that ran multiple characters through with the exploits are still banned as they deserve it.
But yes, AC is not exploiting and is formally blessed by Zos though some players still falsely try to call it exploiting merely because they do not like it1 for one reason or another.
I don't think it's because they don't like it, but rather because they think that as most people use it and ZOS condone it then by labeling it as cheating/exploiting that in itself provides the justification for whatever cheating/exploiting they're getting up to.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@idk I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. The difference between them as I defined them is like the difference between not calling up your bank when they make an error in your favor verses hacking into their accounts and cleaning them out. Neither is good but I think that's a huge difference.
I put the key point of your comment in bold. it is your definition and I still stand by it is splitting hairs.
I have no idea why you are using hacking into someone's account as an example to defend your comments. That is something that is illegal beyond the boundaries of Zos.- You run through a dungeon to the next boss, all the trash whiplashes back/evades.
- You find a way to move outside of the intended path of a trial instance to get to the last boss and able to stand where the boss nor any adds can do any damage to you.
Both are considered exploits. The first is not going to get you banned while you are taking a huge risk with the second option. So yes, you are splitting hairs with your definitions. Most exploits that will get you banned are pretty obvious.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭
Look up the definition of the word "but."
Why mention AddOns in this at all if you didn't think they were related?
Oh, i know, because you think they are, which is wrong. So there's that ...
I do think they're related. I only meant to say those qualifiers are why I assume they don't normally get put into the cheating bucket. But as the rest of my post argues, they still give substantial advantage.0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭@idk I wouldn't call it splitting hairs. The difference between them as I defined them is like the difference between not calling up your bank when they make an error in your favor verses hacking into their accounts and cleaning them out. Neither is good but I think that's a huge difference.
I put the key point of your comment in bold. it is your definition and I still stand by it is splitting hairs.
I have no idea why you are using hacking into someone's account as an example to defend your comments. That is something that is illegal beyond the boundaries of Zos.- You run through a dungeon to the next boss, all the trash whiplashes back/evades.
- You find a way to move outside of the intended path of a trial instance to get to the last boss and able to stand where the boss nor any adds can do any damage to you.
Both are considered exploits. The first is not going to get you banned while you are taking a huge risk with the second option. So yes, you are splitting hairs with your definitions. Most exploits that will get you banned are pretty obvious.
One is passive, the other is active. In one case you are actively hacking the system, in essence creating a bug, just for you, where there wasn't one before. In the other case you are using a bug that you didn't put there - zenimax did - and it's available to everyone. That's a HUGE difference.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players
!
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.5 -
vamp_emily✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I actually got "hacked" last night.
Someone encrypted all my files on a server and wanted me to put money in their bitcoin account ( a.k.a. ransomware ).
On topic, If ESO is providing an API for developers to use then it is not considered cheating when making/using addons.
If you want a friend, get a dog.
AW Rank: Grand Warlord 1 ( level 49)4 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What the two (cheating and exploiting) have in common is both are against the ToS and doing either could cost you your account.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Add-ons are not cheating because they use the game's API only. ZOS dictates what functions the API opens up. Anything that changes the game is cheating. Add-ons don't change anything, they just enable features in the game that ZOS has deemed fine.
Weaving was never considered an exploit. ZOS has said it was allowed from day 1 and has embraced it as a combat mechanic.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 6, 2019 8:21PM7 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭What the two (cheating and exploiting) have in common is both are against the ToS and doing either could cost you your account.
...In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is).
0 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?9 -
rothtwinsdad✭✭I wouldn't consider add-ons cheating. They do however give an unfair advantage to PC vs console. As a console user I would love to have cool down timers and mechanic notifications, if any pc user thinks this not an advantage I would love for them to explain!PS4/NA
Ace Ventura: Magsorc pve dps
Bodacious Brutality: Stamblade pve dps
Freezer Pops: Magden pvp DC
Nature Boy: Stamden pvp DC
Tramp Stampler: Magplar pve dps
Sargent Slaughterfish: Magblade
Unbreakable: Stampler pvp DC
Combustible: DK pve tank
Romancing The Bone: Stamcro pve dps/tank1 -
Thorvik_Tyrson✭✭✭There've been a couple thought provoking threads on what constitutes cheating, and I wanted to clarify some terms that might help us all think about the different gradations of dubious advantage seeking behavior, because I see some inconsistency in how we all think about it.
In particular, I get a little annoyed when folks equate these two terms:
Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with your definition of "Cheating" as you laid it out in your post. There are several quality of life mods that I use to play the game that to me actually makes the game playable instead of the cumbersome system that ZOS put out.
For Example: the Lazy writ mod and other related crafting mods. To me they make the game usable and much less time consuming that the junk that the unmodified game gives you. Before I installed mods, it was taking me around 3 hours to do crafting writs and riding training on 18 characters. After installing the mods, that time was reduced to around 90 minutes. IMO, most of that functionality should have been put into the base game. Like why cant I see what the crafting writ is that I am working on when I am in the crafting table? The crafting writ UI covers the quest information UI. It's facts like this that make you wonder if the devs even play their own game, and why I think that mods are necessary to make the game playable.
I agree that mods fall into a grey area, but most major MMO's that I have played have some sort of interface so that mods can be created. I think that the Devs see the value and time savings to them that the modding community provides to their product at little to no cost to them. (They need to write/provide the API, the modding community does the rest for them) But why should ZOS waste their time coding it into the game when they can get the Mod creators to do the work for them?
Some mods can be cheats. I knew of speed hack mods that I saw players using to cheat in PVP events in other games.
The TOS is legal boiler plate to basically say that you cant sue ZOS for anything. You see similar verbiage in all MMO's. I do not think that the TOS does not allow mods. Seriously, If they did not want to allow mods, all they would need to do is disable the API. The fact that the API even exists says to me that they want the assistance provided to them by the modding community to make their game playable.
That is my opinion on the subject.
Thorvik0 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?
Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.1 -
Tandor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?
I didn't refer to addons as cheating, I specifically referred to "use addons or cheat/exploit". So no, like you I don't consider the use of addons to be cheating.
So far as them allowing you to play the game in unintended ways is concerned, I stand by that. Lorebooks and skyshards are intended to be found through exploration, and the fact that ZOS allow the use of addons to show you where they are doesn't alter that in my view. The fact that they allow the use of short-cuts doesn't mean that the use of those short-cuts represents the way they intended the game to be played. There's a difference between "allow" and "intend".
As for my point about addons diminishing enjoyment, you only have to look at those who complain about chapters being finished inside a day to realise the effect their use of short-cuts had on their potential enjoyment.Edited by Tandor on August 6, 2019 8:52PM3 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »There've been a couple thought provoking threads on what constitutes cheating, and I wanted to clarify some terms that might help us all think about the different gradations of dubious advantage seeking behavior, because I see some inconsistency in how we all think about it.
In particular, I get a little annoyed when folks equate these two terms:
Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella, but typically we're talking about things that either modify player movement, player stats, character actions, or provide information that is meant to be hidden. Still as far as I know, this is the most serious cheating grey area. Is a mod that gives you cool down timers, or alerts you when a dungeon mechanic goes off, cheating? I actually think it should be. Players who don't download that third party software to manipulate the information the game gives them are at a genuine disadvantage.
Exploiting= using the standard ESO software & UI, utilizing an either unintended consequences of ESO code or an overt coding mistake, in a way that improves competitiveness but is open to anyone with an ESO account. For a long time weaving was considered in this category though it's now on firmly "legal" ground.
Both could be considered bad but they're not the same thing at all. In one case your deliberately hacking the system. In the other your just playing the game zenimax sold you, but in a way some folks won't like (and yes in a way that violates the TOS. Just remember the TOS isn't necessarily fair or good customer service... It just is what it is). But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
I'm sorry, but I do not agree with your definition of "Cheating" as you laid it out in your post. There are several quality of life mods that I use to play the game that to me actually makes the game playable instead of the cumbersome system that ZOS put out.
For Example: the Lazy writ mod and other related crafting mods. To me they make the game usable and much less time consuming that the junk that the unmodified game gives you. Before I installed mods, it was taking me around 3 hours to do crafting writs and riding training on 18 characters. After installing the mods, that time was reduced to around 90 minutes. IMO, most of that functionality should have been put into the base game. Like why cant I see what the crafting writ is that I am working on when I am in the crafting table? The crafting writ UI covers the quest information UI. It's facts like this that make you wonder if the devs even play their own game, and why I think that mods are necessary to make the game playable.
I agree that mods fall into a grey area, but most major MMO's that I have played have some sort of interface so that mods can be created. I think that the Devs see the value and time savings to them that the modding community provides to their product at little to no cost to them. (They need to write/provide the API, the modding community does the rest for them) But why should ZOS waste their time coding it into the game when they can get the Mod creators to do the work for them?
Some mods can be cheats. I knew of speed hack mods that I saw players using to cheat in PVP events in other games.
The TOS is legal boiler plate to basically say that you cant sue ZOS for anything. You see similar verbiage in all MMO's. I do not think that the TOS does not allow mods. Seriously, If they did not want to allow mods, all they would need to do is disable the API. The fact that the API even exists says to me that they want the assistance provided to them by the modding community to make their game playable.
That is my opinion on the subject.
Thorvik
That's actually a fine exsmple. That one mod just doubled the amount of gold & crafting resources your able to earn in an hour and a half. Someone who"s not using that third party software is at a substantial disadvantage to you, based only on scripts you are running in the background to change the game zos sold you. I'm not saying you should get in trouble or anything, but I would think that should be way more sketchy than figuring out a quirk of how the game plays that lets anyone with a running copy of the game jump far.Edited by worrallj on August 6, 2019 8:56PM2 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭rothtwinsdad wrote: »I wouldn't consider add-ons cheating. They do however give an unfair advantage to PC vs console. As a console user I would love to have cool down timers and mechanic notifications, if any pc user thinks this not an advantage I would love for them to explain!
If the game were cross platform that would be a real issue. I played my first character through all the content with no add-ons. On all my other characters I use add-ons. They do make the game easier and more enjoyable.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella,
... But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
You are aware that all addons use an API specifically written and documented by Zenimax to enable add-ons to have those functions? They even have their own patch notes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484397/update-23-api-patch-notes-change-log-pts#latest
Calling add-ons cheating is exactly like saying using the base UI is cheating. Both the UI and API are written to be used by players.12 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?
Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.
I was responding to theI just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains.
Part of the comment I quoted.
But to respond to you directly. What unfair advantage? One, everyone on PC has access to add-ons, it's not like you have to pay money for it. Two, anything you can do with add-ons you can do without.2 -
worrallj✭✭✭✭✭Cheating= using other software to manipulate the way ESO code runs to give yourself an advantage. Technically most add-ons would fall under this umbrella,
... But to me, most addons are much closer to cheating than exploits. Your modifying the base game to give yourself an advantage. How is that not cheating, but using the regular UI in particular cases where zenimax screwed up is?
You are aware that all addons use an API specifically written and documented by Zenimax to enable add-ons to have those functions? They even have their own patch notes?
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484397/update-23-api-patch-notes-change-log-pts#latest
Calling add-ons cheating is exactly like saying using the base UI is cheating. Both the UI and API are written to be used by players.
Not saying you should have read every single post so not being snarky, but just to avoid typing the same thing over and over in slightly different ways...Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?
Didn't say it was unintended, said it was unfair advantage for people who don't want to install third party software. There's a lot of people who seem to equate "zos intended it this way" with "it's not cheating/it's fair." I'm taking a very different line and talking about exogenous (obtained outside normal gameplay) sources of player advantage.
Just because ZOS intended it doesn't mean it's fair, and just because they didn't intend it doesn't mean it's unfair. I realize we must all abide by the TOS, but we can still discuss what we think of them and if we want to advocate change.1 -
Ogou✭✭✭✭✭Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
As I don't play competitively it doesn't bother me if other players use addons or cheat/exploit (although I play on PC I do neither), I just think that either way they diminish the enjoyment they could get from the game if they played it fully in the way intended rather than looking for short-cuts and quick gains. Each to his own, however, subject to the ToS being fully enforced.
I played for about 3 years on PC without any add-on and I still didn't consider it cheating.
Can we also stop with the idea that add-ons allow you to play the game in unintended ways? Any function or resource available to the add-ons was intentionally put there by ZOS. How is it unintended?
I didn't refer to addons as cheating, I specifically referred to "use addons or cheat/exploit". So no, like you I don't consider the use of addons to be cheating.Those who don't think that addons are cheating would very quickly change their tune if they were playing on console on a cross-platform server with PC players !
This is what I was responding to.So far as them allowing you to play the game in unintended ways is concerned, I stand by that. Lorebooks and skyshards are intended to be found through exploration, and the fact that ZOS allow the use of addons to show you where they are doesn't alter that in my view. The fact that they allow the use of short-cuts doesn't mean that the use of those short-cuts represents the way they intended the game to be played. There's a difference between "allow" and "intend".
What's the difference between that and looking up a map of their locations? More importantly, how do you make the difference between what's allowed and what's intended, because right now it's sounding very arbitrary?As for my point about addons diminishing enjoyment, you only have to look at those who complain about chapters being finished inside a day to realise the effect their use of short-cuts had on their potential enjoyment.
Everyone enjoys the game in different ways. If you're not interested in getting first clears or finishing everything as soon as it comes out, that's fine, but that doesn't give you the right to declare that the people doing it are not having fun.
Besides, add-ons are not to blame for that. The PTS cycle allowing people to practice the content over and over again before it comes out is the only culprit.
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