Annulment and Morphs Need a Further Audit on its' Power Budget

Wuuffyy · August 2019

You don't sacrifice anything to get this huge max-health increasing "burst heal" except use the armor you were already going to run.

The self-healing version of vigor is going to be nerfed because it isn't attached to a weapon line (4 ones for stam). While rapid regen is behind a weapon line (of 2 choices), heals for the same if not more, and brings fantastic passives.

Therefore, according to the aforementioned logic the LA shield is overperforming and needs to be reexamined for those reasons.

It makes complete since because magic classes already have both an abundance of self heals and some even have other shields.

There is a huge DOT meta incoming in PvP and I imagine even more tenuous mechanics in PvE and while it seemed that one would need to retain the combative self healing and burst shielding power for this... The already pronounced vigor adjustment states otherwise on what is needed.

For those unaware of the upcoming RESOLVING VIGOR NERF. This a leading communication relaying dev's post in an audit(nerf) vigor thread past 7PM CST on THURSDAY, AUGUST 1ST:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As mentioned in this past week's PTS notes, we do feel Vigor's HoT enables too much healing. We're planning to have some adjustments in next week's PTS patch.

PS.-
My Suggestion for a Proper and Rightful Audit to the LA Shield and Morph:

Remove or radically change the way shield stacking works -ie ward and this, health shields and this, etc.- The more shields then the less total shield you get.

My Suggestion for a Proper Audit to
Resolving Vigor:

Cost Increase by 50%, Will heal only one friendly, non pet target within 7m for 10% less than current PTS value --- NOT ALWAYS A GUARANTEED HEAL ON YOU ---. Also re-audit rapid regen to heal 10% less to kept the standard the same.

LeHarrt91 · August 2019

Annulment the Light Armor Shield?

or do you mean Healing Ward?

Wuuffyy · August 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Annulment the Light Armor Shield?

or do you mean Healing Ward?

Nope I mean the LA shield.

LeHarrt91 · August 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Annulment the Light Armor Shield?

or do you mean Healing Ward?

Nope I mean the LA shield.

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

You don't sacrifice anything to get this huge burst heal except use the armor you were already going to run.

Then im confused by your burst heal statement.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Annulment the Light Armor Shield?

or do you mean Healing Ward?

Nope I mean the LA shield.

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

You don't sacrifice anything to get this huge burst heal except use the armor you were already going to run.

Then im confused by your burst heal statement.

Your right it isn't just a burst heal. It actually increases your total health. I'm citing the word 'burst heal' from our very own game-shaking developers.

LeHarrt91 · August 2019

Ok but to use Rapid Regen (which is not guaranteed to target the caster) and Annulment you need to slot a Resto staff and wear at least 5 light armor and they did nerf the size of annulment.

Vigor can be worn by medium and heavy armor, and has no weapon requirement. And you can use Evasion if in medium.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Ok but to use Rapid Regen (which is not guaranteed to target the caster) and Annulment you need to slot a Resto staff and wear at least 5 light armor and they did nerf the size of annulment.

Vigor can be worn by medium and heavy armor, and has no weapon requirement. And you can use Evasion if in medium.

Right. I did some editing on the main topic. Re-read now and my point should make since to you.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Also, would it matter to you if resolving would only guaranteed the 1 heal if you were the only one within lets say 7m and it had a cost increase from current PTS values by 50% rather than touching its' maximum effectiveness?

Wuuffyy · August 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

Ok but to use Rapid Regen (which is not guaranteed to target the caster) and Annulment you need to slot a Resto staff and wear at least 5 light armor and they did nerf the size of annulment.

Vigor can be worn by medium and heavy armor, and has no weapon requirement. And you can use Evasion if in medium.

Also annulment actually received a buff to its' maximum effectiveness and actually matches or is greater than -A CLASS SHIELD-.

Also, evasion isn't a shield. Or a heal. Just an okay very specific not dot related damage debuff and snare removal that matches universal snare removal and cost is similar to annulment for some reason.

ccfeeling · August 2019

What do you want ? Cut to 30% of max health ?

Wuuffyy · August 2019

ccfeeling wrote: »

What do you want ? Cut to 30% of max health ?

Thats up for the devs to decide. I would undoubtably say that the stacking mechanic needs to be removed or changed in a way that actually displays strong diminishing returns.

LeHarrt91 · August 2019

We will have to wait till next week to see what they do, they may just adjust the Echoing morph. but also they may nerf Rapid as well.
But annulment on classes that dont shield stack is already easy to remove.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

We will have to wait till next week to see what they do, they may just adjust the Echoing morph. but also they may nerf Rapid as well.
But annulment on classes that dont shield stack is already easy to remove.

Right. And the main reason I am bringing this all up now is because after next week... It will be too late.

ZOS_GregoryV · August 2019

Greetings all,

After removing some comments, we must remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of our rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Wuuffyy · August 2019

ZOS_GregoryV wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing some comments, we must remind everyone that all posts are to be kept civil and constructive, as well as within the guidelines of our rules. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-

Thank you! Lets keep this wonderfully constructive.

Iskiab · August 2019

Constructive would be to close the thread. How can you say that something needs to be adjusted because something ‘might’ change. Maybe vigor will be increased.

If you mean just look at the values... then yea, this is a balance pass on weapon/guild skill lines, so that means healing’s being looked at. That’s sort of the goal of PTS, everything should be looked at and put in context.

Austinseph1 · August 2019

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

That's the wonder of building shield. You don't have to build that wonderfully awesome to have an 8k shield even in non cp. Instantly. And with mag return on hits. Vigor, for example, has to crit and have high stats to get anywhere near that in 5 seconds.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Constructive would be to close the thread. How can you say that something needs to be adjusted because something ‘might’ change. Maybe vigor will be increased.

If you mean just look at the values... then yea, this is a balance pass on weapon/guild skill lines, so that means healing’s being looked at. That’s sort of the goal of PTS, everything should be looked at and put in context.

I agree with you on some points. I'm really after the standardization here.

Derra · August 2019

Do you feel annulment and morphs enable too much shielding?

Also shields are compared to burst heals not hots. So your call for standardization makes no sense in that regard.

Better pray that vigor will not be put up to those standards.

pieratsos · August 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

That's the wonder of building shield. You don't have to build that wonderfully awesome to have an 8k shield even in non cp. Instantly. And with mag return on hits. Vigor, for example, has to crit and have high stats to get anywhere near that in 5 seconds.

8k shield is a lot? Are you for real now?

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Derra wrote: »

Do you feel annulment and morphs enable too much shielding?

Also shields are compared to burst heals not hots. So your call for standardization makes no sense in that regard.

Better pray that vigor will not be put up to those standards.

No. I believe that in the very top of my opening statement, I actually referenced burst heals to shields.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

That's the wonder of building shield. You don't have to build that wonderfully awesome to have an 8k shield even in non cp. Instantly. And with mag return on hits. Vigor, for example, has to crit and have high stats to get anywhere near that in 5 seconds.

8k shield is a lot? Are you for real now?

It is when a vigor goes only right over that amount in 5 secs. My assumption is that a ST hot should be stronger than an a burst heal after both durations have ended.

Also 12k in PvE and again that is "effective health" which means your total resists effective hp is essentially increased.

Derra · August 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Do you feel annulment and morphs enable too much shielding?

Also shields are compared to burst heals not hots. So your call for standardization makes no sense in that regard.

Better pray that vigor will not be put up to those standards.

No. I believe that in the very top of my opening statement, I actually referenced burst heals to shields.

Yes and the power standard is evaluated relative to their strength.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Because that would make you realize it’s already the weakest by those standards.
Not really a reason to re-evaluate the weakest “burst heal” of all.

Whereas vigor is indeed the strongest hot in the game currently.
Compared to other hots.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Derra wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Do you feel annulment and morphs enable too much shielding?

Also shields are compared to burst heals not hots. So your call for standardization makes no sense in that regard.

Better pray that vigor will not be put up to those standards.

No. I believe that in the very top of my opening statement, I actually referenced burst heals to shields.

Yes and the power standard is evaluated relative to their strength.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Because that would make you realize it’s already the weakest by those standards.
Not really a reason to re-evaluate the weakest “burst heal” of all.

Whereas vigor is indeed the strongest hot in the game currently.
Compared to other hots.

Not really. Rapid regen, healing ward PASSIVE heal. Many heals are on par with this. However, vigor is unique as it is really the only reliable heal stam characters have now.

Derra · August 2019

Also y

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Do you feel annulment and morphs enable too much shielding?

Also shields are compared to burst heals not hots. So your call for standardization makes no sense in that regard.

Better pray that vigor will not be put up to those standards.

No. I believe that in the very top of my opening statement, I actually referenced burst heals to shields.

Yes and the power standard is evaluated relative to their strength.

Wouldn’t you agree?

Because that would make you realize it’s already the weakest by those standards.
Not really a reason to re-evaluate the weakest “burst heal” of all.

Whereas vigor is indeed the strongest hot in the game currently.
Compared to other hots.

Not really. Rapid regen, healing ward PASSIVE heal. Many heals are on par with this. However, vigor is unique as it is really the only reliable heal stam characters have now.

If you factor in combat and build implications of those two vigor is miles ahead.

I don’t think there is any hot on par with the complete package vigor offers.
I don’t think there should be for magica.

Still leaves us in a scenario where stam on pts is imo too durable.

Lord_Eomer · August 2019

Shields already took too much nerf this patch,

Light armor shields are used by all Classes so not recommended to nerf it or will turn into dust.

HM is already now weakest skill and any further nerf will make other morph useless too.

pieratsos · August 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

That's the wonder of building shield. You don't have to build that wonderfully awesome to have an 8k shield even in non cp. Instantly. And with mag return on hits. Vigor, for example, has to crit and have high stats to get anywhere near that in 5 seconds.

8k shield is a lot? Are you for real now?

It is when a vigor goes only right over that amount in 5 secs. My assumption is that a ST hot should be stronger than an a burst heal after both durations have ended.

Also 12k in PvE and again that is "effective health" which means your total resists effective hp is essentially increased.

No they are not comparable. Apples and oranges. And even if u were to compare them you still conveniently ignore their cost. Vigor costs half as much shields? And I highly doubt that new vigor heals for just 8k over its duration.

Insco851 · August 2019

pieratsos wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Austinseph1 wrote: »

Actually in a way the LA shield did receive a nerf for PvP, and to reach its actual cap takes about 60k magicka. So to effectively use it on any class but sorc to stack you need a resto staff and full light armor. It required you to give up a lot and they also raised the cost a lot. You can say in concept that shields are overpowered but in action in PvP its not sustainable. A more well rounded build would outperform simply building around a shield. The thing that unbalances this is the sorc class shield, and balancing on that class alone has hurt mag classes as a whole in the last couple of patches. You have to realize that light armor also gives up the resistances that come built int med and heavy armor and as such they assume you will shield to make up for that. I would rather have a massive hot for 2k resources than a shield that costs more than double the resources but fades away in 6s. Its hard to compare shields and a hot as they are apples and oranges but for the cost It just barely covers the effectiveness.

That's the wonder of building shield. You don't have to build that wonderfully awesome to have an 8k shield even in non cp. Instantly. And with mag return on hits. Vigor, for example, has to crit and have high stats to get anywhere near that in 5 seconds.

8k shield is a lot? Are you for real now?

It is when a vigor goes only right over that amount in 5 secs. My assumption is that a ST hot should be stronger than an a burst heal after both durations have ended.

Also 12k in PvE and again that is "effective health" which means your total resists effective hp is essentially increased.

No they are not comparable. Apples and oranges. And even if u were to compare them you still conveniently ignore their cost. Vigor costs half as much shields? And I highly doubt that new vigor heals for just 8k over its duration.

25-30k tooltips on regular builds lol... 8k tho!

maxjapank · August 2019

The guy is overreacting. He’s upset about vigor being nerfed, but he has absolutely no idea how it’s going to be nerfed. The fact is that vigor is over performing right now compared to everything else. But he’s whining and wants to take everything and everyone else down because “it’s not fair”. Honestly, they should close this thread.

Insco851 · August 2019

Also to be constructive here-

Heals can Crit and be modified by Minor and Major Mending And Vitality. There’s also way more passives for healing done/received in the game. Cons- major and minor defile. (And major defile sources have been heavily nerfed recently)

Shields do not crit. Can be critted on, and have basically 1 modifier attached to Cp pvp. All while being costly af to spam. Pros- can be used as a health extension. Act as a burst and a hot, can be stacked (and with the extension trait, stacking makes them strong)

These things don’t balance together well.