I think a lot of it has to do with the original concept they had for ESO leaking into the overhauled version we got. ESO was originally going to be a WoW clone and very cartoonish. So surprise surprise the Nords were going to be portrayed as stoneheaded morons that like to drink mead and fight. But Skyrim drops and they realize they have completely misread the demographic they hoped to net with this MMO and begin to change it. Somehow, that change did not flow over into all of the games development and characters like the Naked Nord and Rigurt came to be some of our first memorable Nord characters we interacted with. Five years on and we still occasionally run into Nords being used for comedic relief in stories and its become a bit tiresome. Not to mention characters like Rigurt continue to pop up reminding us of the original intent behind this game.

I did seem to find the Rift and East March to be more grounded, though it was still very stereotypical MMO playthrough. So I hope to see areas in the West to be much more rich in Old Nord Culture prior to the Imperial mixing we got in Skyrim.

It's just how you perceive the accent. *shrugs*

Much like the Southern Accent of the US, it's not that all southerners are dumb, we just perceive the accent as less refined and cultured giving the impression of being dumb.

It's just how it's received/perceived.

I don't see it that way and they've been smart, silly, etc. like many of the other races through the campaigns IMO. I grew up outside of the US, I think that Muppet tainted yah .

Huh, an entire single player RPG devoted to Skyrim does a better job with the Nords than ESO? Who'da thunk it?

Personally, I think there's character depth in the Nords in ESO if you want to look for it.

Take Bleakrock Isle. There's the personality clash between Tillrani the old commander and Captain Rana who replaced her - and Tillrani is proven correct by events. This also launched the story arc of Aera Earth-Turner who was one of the Nord characters I cared the most about. The final decision my Pact character had to make in the Rift, following on the decision in Bal Foyen, about gutted me.

Eastmarch had plenty of interesting family dynamics. As I mentioned above, I really enjoyed the quest exploring a very disillusioned priestess of Kyne. I also thought that the reluctance of Jorunn to kill his brother was a good representation of the importance of kinship to the Nords, while the whole "kill the king" plot is pretty accurate to historical nord politics. As much as the drunken carousing at the Konunleikar probably annoys some posters here, I thought it was a much better version of the Burning of King Olaf we got in Skyrim.

The Rift brought back some staples of Skyrim: dragon temples and the Companions. My favorite part of the Rift was that one of the Thanes is really annoyed that he used to be a war hero for fighting against the Dunmer, and now everyone wants to be buddy buddy and forget about the years of war. We see this xenophobia echoed in Irnskar, Jorunn's son, and its a pretty reasonable way for some Nords to react to the new alliance that ZOS didnt shy away from.

I'm not going to claim that ESO made a super deep game or that its got the same qualiry of worldbuilding as Skyrim. There's no better proof of ESO going for breadth over depth than their treatment of Vvardenfell.

But I do think there are good Nord characters in ESO - characters that stuck with me because they had understandable and even complex motives - and there were good stories being told with the Nord characters and Nord lands.

As with any RPG, what you get out is what you put in. If you go in thinking the Nords are interesting, chances are you'll find good stories and interesting characters if you go looking for them.

Orryn the Black doesn't sound like an 'imbecile' Nord.

Scythe_Mercer wrote: »

*cough* just gonna leave this here Incase -certain- people here just -claim- to know something without any research whatsoever and thinks this deity is solely of one race. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim

Talos is just one race. Anything else is fanfic. What his race is is up to debate, but he's most likely either Breton or Imperial.

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

@goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oZAwDjOS8Q

Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.

I know Nord culture. And because of that, I know Ulfric spits on said culture.

So why do you refuse to adress the fact that Ulfric fights to preserve the worship of an Imperial Deity? Shouldn't someone who claims to fight for the ways of the Nords also worship the deities of the Nords? Would you consider someone a Christian if he preached the ways of Islam? Would you consider someone a Muslim if he preached the ways of Christendom? Because I wouldn't.

I'm not willing to derail this with a full scale argument over Talos, but I don't see the evidence in Skyrim for your view of his worship.

For one, while in Morrowind we see the Talos Cult as the extremely imperialized invasive religion, that doesnt seem to be the case in Skyrim. Rather, 200 years later, Skyrim seems to have largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon in practice. We see a few distinctions like Kyne vs Kynareth, but otherwise everyone seems content with the Imperial Pantheon. No one tells Heimskr to shut up about that former Emperor, Talos used to be in the temple in Solitude before the WGC, there are shrines to Talos scattered around, Elisif says High King Torygg would have wanted an offering made to Talos, and so on. That's not entirely surprising - Skyrim was never as hostile to outsiders as Morrowind was and its people often served in the Legion. Even in Oblivion, we have 2 Nord members of the Knights of the Nine.

You can argue that this is Bethesda being lazy and not giving the Nords a distinct culture, but I'm going to go with what we see in game.

Moreover, by the time of Skyrim, we've seen a significant shift in the religious landscape with the rise of the Thalmor, preaching elven supremacy and that Talos, the man who became a divine, is not actually a god. While we can get all speculative on the actual nature of Talos, on the layperson level, he's become a symbol for human supremacy or, at least, a symbol that the Thalmor are wrong. The White Gold Concordat presumably didnt come out of nowhere, so its very likely that the worship of Talos was changing over those 150+ years to become more inclusive of all humanity in opposition to the elven supremacy of the Thalmor, as we see that doctrine of Talos more developed in Skyrim. After the Great War, worshipping Talos is defiance of the Thalmor, rejecting their ability to decide who humans can worship.

In that light, it makes perfect sense that Ulfric, who is adamantly opposed to the Thalmor, is a fervent Talos worshipper. Over two centuries, Talos, originally an imperial deity pretty much exported by the Legions, has become a symbol of humanity and is a huge middle finger to the Thalmor to the point they want him banned.


So to break it down:
1. I don't see any support in Skyrim for your assertion that Talos is an "Imperial" deity. He certainly started that way, but by the time we play Skyrim, he and much of the Imperial Pantheon is accepted and worshipped by the vast majority of Nords we meet. (No, I will not accept "Bethesda was lazy" as an excuse for what we see in gameplay, because...)

2. It makes sense the the Nords accepted Talos as their own. First, the Talos Cult was very strong in the legions, and we know many Nords from TES 3 through TES 5 have Legion experience, including those 2 Knights of the Nine, Ulfric, and many Stormcloak veterans.
Second, with the Thalmor preaching Elven supremacy and increasingly threatening the Empire (of which Skyrim was then a part), Talos as the man become divine becomes a natural counterpoint and point of conflict, to the point that the Thalmor seek to outright ban Talos worship in pursuit of their own goals. Nords, being human and opposing the Thalmor, worship Talos.
Third, whatever the actual origin story of Tiber Septim, there's still a lot of connection to the Nords. He had the Voice, the Greybeards recognize him as Dragonborn, etc. So unlike with the Dunmer, he's not quite a foreign deity imposed on them by an invading power. Talos at least has some connection to Skyrim that makes him a lot more palatable to the Nords. I note that Ulfric plays up those connections - maybe because he believes them sincerely or maybe because he's trying to draw parallels to his own Voice.


In the end, based on what we see in Skyrim, I'm not surprised to see many Nords worshipping Talos. Ulfric appears to be completely normal in that regard.

So he's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords right now as opposed to the very real and present threat of the Thalmor and the corrupt leadership of the Imperials.

He's not fighting to preserve the ancient Nord pantheon against the Imperial Pantheon, because that doesnt really seem to be an issue in Skyrim, which has largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon. That's very distinct from TES 3 where the Dunmer were defending their Tribunal vs the imperializing Talos Cult.

They sound like dummies because they're Nords, and Nords aren't exactly known for their culture or intelligence.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

@goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oZAwDjOS8Q

Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.

I know Nord culture. And because of that, I know Ulfric spits on said culture.

So why do you refuse to adress the fact that Ulfric fights to preserve the worship of an Imperial Deity? Shouldn't someone who claims to fight for the ways of the Nords also worship the deities of the Nords? Would you consider someone a Christian if he preached the ways of Islam? Would you consider someone a Muslim if he preached the ways of Christendom? Because I wouldn't.

I'm not willing to derail this with a full scale argument over Talos, but I don't see the evidence in Skyrim for your view of his worship.

For one, while in Morrowind we see the Talos Cult as the extremely imperialized invasive religion, that doesnt seem to be the case in Skyrim. Rather, 200 years later, Skyrim seems to have largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon in practice. We see a few distinctions like Kyne vs Kynareth, but otherwise everyone seems content with the Imperial Pantheon. No one tells Heimskr to shut up about that former Emperor, Talos used to be in the temple in Solitude before the WGC, there are shrines to Talos scattered around, Elisif says High King Torygg would have wanted an offering made to Talos, and so on. That's not entirely surprising - Skyrim was never as hostile to outsiders as Morrowind was and its people often served in the Legion. Even in Oblivion, we have 2 Nord members of the Knights of the Nine.

You can argue that this is Bethesda being lazy and not giving the Nords a distinct culture, but I'm going to go with what we see in game.

Moreover, by the time of Skyrim, we've seen a significant shift in the religious landscape with the rise of the Thalmor, preaching elven supremacy and that Talos, the man who became a divine, is not actually a god. While we can get all speculative on the actual nature of Talos, on the layperson level, he's become a symbol for human supremacy or, at least, a symbol that the Thalmor are wrong. The White Gold Concordat presumably didnt come out of nowhere, so its very likely that the worship of Talos was changing over those 150+ years to become more inclusive of all humanity in opposition to the elven supremacy of the Thalmor, as we see that doctrine of Talos more developed in Skyrim. After the Great War, worshipping Talos is defiance of the Thalmor, rejecting their ability to decide who humans can worship.

In that light, it makes perfect sense that Ulfric, who is adamantly opposed to the Thalmor, is a fervent Talos worshipper. Over two centuries, Talos, originally an imperial deity pretty much exported by the Legions, has become a symbol of humanity and is a huge middle finger to the Thalmor to the point they want him banned.


So to break it down:
1. I don't see any support in Skyrim for your assertion that Talos is an "Imperial" deity. He certainly started that way, but by the time we play Skyrim, he and much of the Imperial Pantheon is accepted and worshipped by the vast majority of Nords we meet. (No, I will not accept "Bethesda was lazy" as an excuse for what we see in gameplay, because...)

2. It makes sense the the Nords accepted Talos as their own. First, the Talos Cult was very strong in the legions, and we know many Nords from TES 3 through TES 5 have Legion experience, including those 2 Knights of the Nine, Ulfric, and many Stormcloak veterans.
Second, with the Thalmor preaching Elven supremacy and increasingly threatening the Empire (of which Skyrim was then a part), Talos as the man become divine becomes a natural counterpoint and point of conflict, to the point that the Thalmor seek to outright ban Talos worship in pursuit of their own goals. Nords, being human and opposing the Thalmor, worship Talos.
Third, whatever the actual origin story of Tiber Septim, there's still a lot of connection to the Nords. He had the Voice, the Greybeards recognize him as Dragonborn, etc. So unlike with the Dunmer, he's not quite a foreign deity imposed on them by an invading power. Talos at least has some connection to Skyrim that makes him a lot more palatable to the Nords. I note that Ulfric plays up those connections - maybe because he believes them sincerely or maybe because he's trying to draw parallels to his own Voice.


In the end, based on what we see in Skyrim, I'm not surprised to see many Nords worshipping Talos. Ulfric appears to be completely normal in that regard.

So he's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords right now as opposed to the very real and present threat of the Thalmor and the corrupt leadership of the Imperials.

He's not fighting to preserve the ancient Nord pantheon against the Imperial Pantheon, because that doesnt really seem to be an issue in Skyrim, which has largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon. That's very distinct from TES 3 where the Dunmer were defending their Tribunal vs the imperializing Talos Cult.

The Nords adopting the Imperial Pantheon doesn't make said Pantheon theirs. It's a part of the reason why Ulfric doesn't fight for the ways of the Nords. Froki makes it pretty obvious the Nords have become imperialized, while in the past they were far too stubborn to adapt to the ways of the Empire; even the Nords of Bruma refused to worship Talos in the late-Third Era, as they revered his Nordic aspect Ysmir.

The reason the Dominion demanded the worship of Talos banned is very logical. Something happened in the Fourth Era which turned the Nords of Skyrim into Colovians 2.0, with an incredible bias for Talos. Yes, the Thalmor didn't believe Talos became a divine, but it's pretty obvious why they demanded his worship banned, much like why they demanded parts of Hammerfell; tearing apart the Empire. Hammerfell seceded, Skyrim didn't. But Skyrim did enter into a civil war which weakens the Empire. Tell me, who gains from that?

Ulfric's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords ''right now''... Aka, the ways of the Colovians pre-White-Gold Concordat. Considering the fact that the deity is only one aspect of Nord culture Ulfric spits on. We haven't even talked about his dishonoring of the Moot, damnation of the Moot and the Jarls, refusal to let a fair Moot meet, dishonoring of duel customs, oath breakings to the High King and the Greybeards, and possibly even more that I can't place right now.

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.

Not so much that he doesn't follow the ways of the Nords. Rather that he and his Stormcloaks claim to preserve those ways, while they dishonor far more of it than the Empire does. Also, the Nords haven't worshipped Tiber Septim for 600 years, not even 500, hell, not even 300, it's only been 200, at best.

I suppose you do also argue that Mars and Neptune are part of Celtic religion. Arguing against this is pointless. Oh, and I suppose that football is also a global cultural thing and not an English thing, despite the English having created it, and being the first ones to practice it. And who am I kidding when I say Pizza is part of Italian culture, when everyone around the globe can buy it?

Culture doesn't work like that. If you literally copy another culture that doesn't magically make that part of yours. The Greek Pantheon didn't become Roman just because the Romans also created Roman Temples when they conquered Greece. This idea that it's anything else is baseless.

Just because the Nords of the Fourth Era are ignorant of their own ways and customs doesn't magically make their adaptation of the Empire ''Nordic''.

Carbonised wrote: »

Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?

Carbonised wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?

Your ridiculous "comparison" doesn't become any more true the more you repeat it. And that fact that you're harping on about this issue just proves how obstinate you really are. Varanis and I both proved you wrong, deal with it.

And why is that comparison invalid then? Care to elaborate? Or can't you elaborate? Because it's spot-on?

Bruccius wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Bruccius wrote: »

Carbonised wrote: »

@VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.

Not so much that he doesn't follow the ways of the Nords. Rather that he and his Stormcloaks claim to preserve those ways, while they dishonor far more of it than the Empire does. Also, the Nords haven't worshipped Tiber Septim for 600 years, not even 500, hell, not even 300, it's only been 200, at best.

I suppose you do also argue that Mars and Neptune are part of Celtic religion. Arguing against this is pointless. Oh, and I suppose that football is also a global cultural thing and not an English thing, despite the English having created it, and being the first ones to practice it. And who am I kidding when I say Pizza is part of Italian culture, when everyone around the globe can buy it?

Culture doesn't work like that. If you literally copy another culture that doesn't magically make that part of yours. The Greek Pantheon didn't become Roman just because the Romans also created Roman Temples when they conquered Greece. This idea that it's anything else is baseless.

Just because the Nords of the Fourth Era are ignorant of their own ways and customs doesn't magically make their adaptation of the Empire ''Nordic''.

And with soccer and pizza coming into the fray, I'm pretty sure we've full blown derailed into a discussion of culture, cultural adaptation, and how one defines "cultural purity".

I'm not interested in further derailing this thread over those things. Keep this on the lore if you want further discussion - I'm only gonna get hungry thinking about pizza. Nor do I care to really derail down the rabbit hole that is talking about how the Roman religion adapted a whole bunch of stuff from the Greeks and Etruscans or the whole process of Hellenization....

*Ahem. Down, history teacher! Back on topic. Stick to the actual lore.*

Nothing of what you've said disproves what Skyrim's gameplay shows: that the Nordic Culture of the time of Ulfric worships Talos sincerely and considers him to be a Divine, regardless of his worship's Imperial origins. By the standards of the Nords of Skyrim, Ulfric is not dishonoring their culture by fighting to perserve Talos worship. Those are the ways Ulfric claims to preserve - not the pre-Tiber Septim Nord Pantheon or whateber you define as "Nordic Culture"- and none of Ulfric's enemies in the game claim otherwise. In fact, we see prominent examples who disagreed with him on other issues, Torygg and Balgruuf, both wishing to honor Talos in secret.

If your "true" Nordic Culture doesnt worship Talos, I guess you just pulled a "No True Nord" on most of the Nords we meet in Skyrim. Which I find laughable. The Nords in Skyrim clearly regard worshiping Talos as something that is commonplace and valuable to many Nords enough that they were displeased with the WGC. Certainly, we meet very few Nords who explicitly venerate non-Imperial deities, like the few who worship Kyne rather than Kynareth.


So you can have in mind some idealized version of Nords where they don't worship some foreign imperial emperor propaganda god and anyone else is No True Nord...but that's NOT the Nordic culture we are shown in Skyrim, and that's NOT how the Nords in Skyrim view him. Since Skyrim is an actual TES game, its thus a far superior source than your musings about culture.

Like I said, if you have actual sources that contradict the gameplay of TES V Skyrim, I'd like to see them.

And if this is just you going "No True Nord worships Talos" despite that being exactly what plenty of Nords in Skyrim do...then I'm going to say we're going to have to disagree. Skyrim shows lots of Nords worshiping Talos sincerely and being treated as completely correct by other Nords for doing so - and I regard Skyrim's demonstration of 4th Era Nordic Culture as far more authoritative than yours.

@VaranisArano
The Nords of Skyrim follow the ways of the Imperials. Not the ways of the Nords. Nordic ''culture'' is practically extinct. The Nords following a culture which isn't theirs doesn't magically change that culture; it changes the Nords.

The things I've claimed are based on what ESO, the Pocket Guides, and years of Bethesda's lore-works show us. It is no mere coincidence that the Stormcloaks claim to preserve the way of life of the Nords, while spitting on Nord culture.

You just went and even proved my very point when you brought in the Greeks. The elements the Romans took but not adapted didn't become ''Roman''. The Roman Pantheon was greatly inspired by the Greeks, that is correct... But it was different, hence why it was Roman, and not Greek. Much like how the Nords had their own Pantheon. Or perhaps, in this case, how the Imperials had their own. Imperial Pantheon, combination of Aldmer and Nord, remember? It was adapted and changed.

Why is it so hard to admit the Nords, or rather, Stormcloaks, don't follow their own ways, but rather those of the Empire before the Great War?

If you don't want to continue, that's fine, but I'd really recommend you check how cultures work. Just because a society changes to do something else doesn't mean that ''something'' is part of their culture.