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Any reason why ESO Nords sound like complete imbeciles?

  • goatlyonesub17_ESO
    goatlyonesub17_ESO
    ✭✭✭
    Carbonised wrote: »
    There's a thing that has been bugging me a lot, many of the Nords in ESO sound like IQ 80 imbeciles, even going so far as referring to themselves in third person, a trait usually associated with idiots and other slow-minded people. I get that ZOS is trying to go with the "comic relief" card...

    Some of the Nords in some of the quests sounds like they have some smarts (think of the Eastmarch area quests), but you are right in the main. "Can I get a medal? I like medals." Heh.

    What we might be looking at here is more of the same influence from real-world political correctness that also brought us the "Towering Females/Cowering Males" phenomenon. (Think of the kept-husband in Glenumbra who was trying to dodge the over-protectiveness of his heroic warrior-wife.)

    I'm sure that if you think a bit, you can recall at least one other subject upon which ESO has been written to echo the sentiments of political correctness. In Glenumbra, yet again, the werewolf "couple." Mmmm-hmmm? In Grahtwood, the wood-elf pair of whom one had recently died, and you had to get just the right kind of flower for the dearly departed? In the Belkarth Plaza, the Shy Female Nord Merchant who informs you that her wife wants her to sell more stuff, or whatever.

    It's a PC pie-in-the-face every time you turn around. The Mudball Goblin is less annoying. Still, the game is fun, even with all the social justice nonsense. The interactivity of gaming is probably what saved it from going the way of Star Trek: Discovery and Star Wars: The Later Movies.
    "Argonians have fat, scaly tails." —Rissa Manyclaws.
    "Once upon a time there were three sisters: Delicious, Delightful, and Disgusting. Now, Delicious and Delightful were both very pretty girls..." —Brendalyn Jurarde.
    "I smell to the nobility." —Indrasa Avani.
    "The mudballs are especially disgusting today." —The Mudball Goblin.
    "Your armor looks like underwear." —Shuns-the-Knife.
  • robertbmilesb14_ESO
    It's just how you perceive the accent. *shrugs*

    Much like the Southern Accent of the US, it's not that all southerners are dumb, we just perceive the accent as less refined and cultured giving the impression of being dumb.

    It's just how it's received/perceived.

    I don't see it that way and they've been smart, silly, etc. like many of the other races through the campaigns IMO. I grew up outside of the US, I think that Muppet tainted yah ;).
    Edited by robertbmilesb14_ESO on July 16, 2019 4:28AM
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

    @goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

    Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.


    Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

    Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

    @goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

    Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.


    Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

    Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

    I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

    @goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

    Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.


    Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

    Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

    I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.

    I know Nord culture. And because of that, I know Ulfric spits on said culture.

    So why do you refuse to adress the fact that Ulfric fights to preserve the worship of an Imperial Deity? Shouldn't someone who claims to fight for the ways of the Nords also worship the deities of the Nords? Would you consider someone a Christian if he preached the ways of Islam? Would you consider someone a Muslim if he preached the ways of Christendom? Because I wouldn't.
  • Xaramasa
    Xaramasa
    Orryn the Black doesn't sound like an 'imbecile' Nord.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
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    *cough* just gonna leave this here Incase -certain- people here just -claim- to know something without any research whatsoever and thinks this deity is solely of one race. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭
    *cough* just gonna leave this here Incase -certain- people here just -claim- to know something without any research whatsoever and thinks this deity is solely of one race. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim

    Talos is just one race. Anything else is fanfic. What his race is is up to debate, but he's most likely either Breton or Imperial.
  • Scythe_Mercer
    Scythe_Mercer
    ✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    *cough* just gonna leave this here Incase -certain- people here just -claim- to know something without any research whatsoever and thinks this deity is solely of one race. https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Tiber_Septim

    Talos is just one race. Anything else is fanfic. What his race is is up to debate, but he's most likely either Breton or Imperial.

    Now is that fact or your personal opinion, seems to me you didn’t read jack squat here pal :^) Edit: Actually hol up his race is kiiinda up for debate, most of it is leading towards being born in Atmora tho :thinking:
    Edited by Scythe_Mercer on July 30, 2019 12:56PM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

    @goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

    Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.


    Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

    Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

    I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.

    I know Nord culture. And because of that, I know Ulfric spits on said culture.

    So why do you refuse to adress the fact that Ulfric fights to preserve the worship of an Imperial Deity? Shouldn't someone who claims to fight for the ways of the Nords also worship the deities of the Nords? Would you consider someone a Christian if he preached the ways of Islam? Would you consider someone a Muslim if he preached the ways of Christendom? Because I wouldn't.

    I'm not willing to derail this with a full scale argument over Talos, but I don't see the evidence in Skyrim for your view of his worship.

    For one, while in Morrowind we see the Talos Cult as the extremely imperialized invasive religion, that doesnt seem to be the case in Skyrim. Rather, 200 years later, Skyrim seems to have largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon in practice. We see a few distinctions like Kyne vs Kynareth, but otherwise everyone seems content with the Imperial Pantheon. No one tells Heimskr to shut up about that former Emperor, Talos used to be in the temple in Solitude before the WGC, there are shrines to Talos scattered around, Elisif says High King Torygg would have wanted an offering made to Talos, and so on. That's not entirely surprising - Skyrim was never as hostile to outsiders as Morrowind was and its people often served in the Legion. Even in Oblivion, we have 2 Nord members of the Knights of the Nine.

    You can argue that this is Bethesda being lazy and not giving the Nords a distinct culture, but I'm going to go with what we see in game.

    Moreover, by the time of Skyrim, we've seen a significant shift in the religious landscape with the rise of the Thalmor, preaching elven supremacy and that Talos, the man who became a divine, is not actually a god. While we can get all speculative on the actual nature of Talos, on the layperson level, he's become a symbol for human supremacy or, at least, a symbol that the Thalmor are wrong. The White Gold Concordat presumably didnt come out of nowhere, so its very likely that the worship of Talos was changing over those 150+ years to become more inclusive of all humanity in opposition to the elven supremacy of the Thalmor, as we see that doctrine of Talos more developed in Skyrim. After the Great War, worshipping Talos is defiance of the Thalmor, rejecting their ability to decide who humans can worship.

    In that light, it makes perfect sense that Ulfric, who is adamantly opposed to the Thalmor, is a fervent Talos worshipper. Over two centuries, Talos, originally an imperial deity pretty much exported by the Legions, has become a symbol of humanity and is a huge middle finger to the Thalmor to the point they want him banned.


    So to break it down:
    1. I don't see any support in Skyrim for your assertion that Talos is an "Imperial" deity. He certainly started that way, but by the time we play Skyrim, he and much of the Imperial Pantheon is accepted and worshipped by the vast majority of Nords we meet. (No, I will not accept "Bethesda was lazy" as an excuse for what we see in gameplay, because...)

    2. It makes sense the the Nords accepted Talos as their own. First, the Talos Cult was very strong in the legions, and we know many Nords from TES 3 through TES 5 have Legion experience, including those 2 Knights of the Nine, Ulfric, and many Stormcloak veterans.
    Second, with the Thalmor preaching Elven supremacy and increasingly threatening the Empire (of which Skyrim was then a part), Talos as the man become divine becomes a natural counterpoint and point of conflict, to the point that the Thalmor seek to outright ban Talos worship in pursuit of their own goals. Nords, being human and opposing the Thalmor, worship Talos.
    Third, whatever the actual origin story of Tiber Septim, there's still a lot of connection to the Nords. He had the Voice, the Greybeards recognize him as Dragonborn, etc. So unlike with the Dunmer, he's not quite a foreign deity imposed on them by an invading power. Talos at least has some connection to Skyrim that makes him a lot more palatable to the Nords. I note that Ulfric plays up those connections - maybe because he believes them sincerely or maybe because he's trying to draw parallels to his own Voice.


    In the end, based on what we see in Skyrim, I'm not surprised to see many Nords worshipping Talos. Ulfric appears to be completely normal in that regard.

    So he's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords right now as opposed to the very real and present threat of the Thalmor and the corrupt leadership of the Imperials.

    He's not fighting to preserve the ancient Nord pantheon against the Imperial Pantheon, because that doesnt really seem to be an issue in Skyrim, which has largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon. That's very distinct from TES 3 where the Dunmer were defending their Tribunal vs the imperializing Talos Cult.
    Edited by VaranisArano on July 30, 2019 1:34PM
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    @VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
    To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
    So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

    Edited by Carbonised on July 30, 2019 1:47PM
  • msalvia
    msalvia
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    They sound like dummies because they're Nords, and Nords aren't exactly known for their culture or intelligence.
  • Jaimeh
    Jaimeh
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    Khajiit wonders if perhaps they are just a little tipsy for a lot of the time?

    Yup, it's that never-ending party in Windhelm :lol:
    @stargold

    PC/NA CP810

    AD Nefelyn - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Master Angler ǀ Hero of all the things (fine, some of the things)
    DC Bastiene - Breton Templar - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Prefect ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    AD Niobeh - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Black Market Mogul ǀ Blackrose Executioner ǀ Master Thief ǀ Silencer (but we don’t talk about that)
    AD Ashayam - Khajiit Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sydhe Narjes - Redguard Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    DC Eva Saint Claire - Breton Warden - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Rruns-With-Scissors ­- Argonian Dragoknight - Tank ǀ He’s a good boy, OK Bront?
    EP Moiranni Deyr - Dunmer Dragonknight - Healer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Anur Imagua - Redguard Templar - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    AD Azoke Sen - Imperial Sorcerer - Tank ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Sàverin - Orc Warden - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror ǀ Blackrose Executioner
    DC Zuwane Okoye - Redguard Dragonknight - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Telella - Orc Nightblade - DD ǀ The more the merrier ǀ Dro-m'athra Destroyer ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Mal the Ghost Whisperer - Orc Necromancer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror



    PC/EU CP603

    AD Ariadne Nearil - Altmer Sorcerer - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    EP Máyim - Dunmer Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror
    DC Surjan - Orc Nightblade - DD ǀ The Flawless Conqueror

    vSO HM · vAA HM · vHRC HM · vMOL HM · vHOF HM · vAS HM · vCR+2 · vSS+2· vDSA · vBRP

    It's not zerging if we are all solo and just happen to go to the same place independently xD
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Stop derailing my thread with off topic real life political debates such as males vs females, or sexual variation, which has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the topic I started, about the Nords' depiction in ESO.

    @goatlyonesub17_ESO you're the one who brought real life politics into my thread and started this whole debate, so I make you responsible for closing the debate as well. If you wish to discuss leftish politics or sexism or whatever, open a NEW topic on it (and know that such dicsussions aren't allowed on the ESO forums), don't continue it here.

    Also, Fudgemuppets over at YouTube just released a new video about Ulfric, the Skyrim civil war and the general state of Skyrim. This is exactly what I mean, a man life Ulfric is depicted like a real, layered and thoughtful person with profound motives and a resonating character. And he is only one of many, many others on both sides of the Skyrim civil war. Entirely unlike the dumb barbarians that some apologists in this thread try make out as the false "standard" for nord behaviour. And also unlike the stupid imbeciles like Rigurt and Naked Nord and other comic relief characters in ESO.


    Ironic you mention Ulfric, as Ulfric dishonors more of Nord culture than he honors.

    Remember what he is fighting for? I do. An Imperial Deity...

    I'm not even going to bother addressing that ignorance. Watch the video if you want to learn something, seems like you need it.

    I know Nord culture. And because of that, I know Ulfric spits on said culture.

    So why do you refuse to adress the fact that Ulfric fights to preserve the worship of an Imperial Deity? Shouldn't someone who claims to fight for the ways of the Nords also worship the deities of the Nords? Would you consider someone a Christian if he preached the ways of Islam? Would you consider someone a Muslim if he preached the ways of Christendom? Because I wouldn't.

    I'm not willing to derail this with a full scale argument over Talos, but I don't see the evidence in Skyrim for your view of his worship.

    For one, while in Morrowind we see the Talos Cult as the extremely imperialized invasive religion, that doesnt seem to be the case in Skyrim. Rather, 200 years later, Skyrim seems to have largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon in practice. We see a few distinctions like Kyne vs Kynareth, but otherwise everyone seems content with the Imperial Pantheon. No one tells Heimskr to shut up about that former Emperor, Talos used to be in the temple in Solitude before the WGC, there are shrines to Talos scattered around, Elisif says High King Torygg would have wanted an offering made to Talos, and so on. That's not entirely surprising - Skyrim was never as hostile to outsiders as Morrowind was and its people often served in the Legion. Even in Oblivion, we have 2 Nord members of the Knights of the Nine.

    You can argue that this is Bethesda being lazy and not giving the Nords a distinct culture, but I'm going to go with what we see in game.

    Moreover, by the time of Skyrim, we've seen a significant shift in the religious landscape with the rise of the Thalmor, preaching elven supremacy and that Talos, the man who became a divine, is not actually a god. While we can get all speculative on the actual nature of Talos, on the layperson level, he's become a symbol for human supremacy or, at least, a symbol that the Thalmor are wrong. The White Gold Concordat presumably didnt come out of nowhere, so its very likely that the worship of Talos was changing over those 150+ years to become more inclusive of all humanity in opposition to the elven supremacy of the Thalmor, as we see that doctrine of Talos more developed in Skyrim. After the Great War, worshipping Talos is defiance of the Thalmor, rejecting their ability to decide who humans can worship.

    In that light, it makes perfect sense that Ulfric, who is adamantly opposed to the Thalmor, is a fervent Talos worshipper. Over two centuries, Talos, originally an imperial deity pretty much exported by the Legions, has become a symbol of humanity and is a huge middle finger to the Thalmor to the point they want him banned.


    So to break it down:
    1. I don't see any support in Skyrim for your assertion that Talos is an "Imperial" deity. He certainly started that way, but by the time we play Skyrim, he and much of the Imperial Pantheon is accepted and worshipped by the vast majority of Nords we meet. (No, I will not accept "Bethesda was lazy" as an excuse for what we see in gameplay, because...)

    2. It makes sense the the Nords accepted Talos as their own. First, the Talos Cult was very strong in the legions, and we know many Nords from TES 3 through TES 5 have Legion experience, including those 2 Knights of the Nine, Ulfric, and many Stormcloak veterans.
    Second, with the Thalmor preaching Elven supremacy and increasingly threatening the Empire (of which Skyrim was then a part), Talos as the man become divine becomes a natural counterpoint and point of conflict, to the point that the Thalmor seek to outright ban Talos worship in pursuit of their own goals. Nords, being human and opposing the Thalmor, worship Talos.
    Third, whatever the actual origin story of Tiber Septim, there's still a lot of connection to the Nords. He had the Voice, the Greybeards recognize him as Dragonborn, etc. So unlike with the Dunmer, he's not quite a foreign deity imposed on them by an invading power. Talos at least has some connection to Skyrim that makes him a lot more palatable to the Nords. I note that Ulfric plays up those connections - maybe because he believes them sincerely or maybe because he's trying to draw parallels to his own Voice.


    In the end, based on what we see in Skyrim, I'm not surprised to see many Nords worshipping Talos. Ulfric appears to be completely normal in that regard.

    So he's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords right now as opposed to the very real and present threat of the Thalmor and the corrupt leadership of the Imperials.

    He's not fighting to preserve the ancient Nord pantheon against the Imperial Pantheon, because that doesnt really seem to be an issue in Skyrim, which has largely adopted the Imperial Pantheon. That's very distinct from TES 3 where the Dunmer were defending their Tribunal vs the imperializing Talos Cult.

    The Nords adopting the Imperial Pantheon doesn't make said Pantheon theirs. It's a part of the reason why Ulfric doesn't fight for the ways of the Nords. Froki makes it pretty obvious the Nords have become imperialized, while in the past they were far too stubborn to adapt to the ways of the Empire; even the Nords of Bruma refused to worship Talos in the late-Third Era, as they revered his Nordic aspect Ysmir.

    The reason the Dominion demanded the worship of Talos banned is very logical. Something happened in the Fourth Era which turned the Nords of Skyrim into Colovians 2.0, with an incredible bias for Talos. Yes, the Thalmor didn't believe Talos became a divine, but it's pretty obvious why they demanded his worship banned, much like why they demanded parts of Hammerfell; tearing apart the Empire. Hammerfell seceded, Skyrim didn't. But Skyrim did enter into a civil war which weakens the Empire. Tell me, who gains from that?

    Ulfric's fighting to preserve the ways of the Nords ''right now''... Aka, the ways of the Colovians pre-White-Gold Concordat. Considering the fact that the deity is only one aspect of Nord culture Ulfric spits on. We haven't even talked about his dishonoring of the Moot, damnation of the Moot and the Jarls, refusal to let a fair Moot meet, dishonoring of duel customs, oath breakings to the High King and the Greybeards, and possibly even more that I can't place right now.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    @VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
    To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
    So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

    Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

    You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    @VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
    To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
    So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

    Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

    You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

    The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

    But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

    So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


    When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

    As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


    The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

    Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
    And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
    So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

    Edited by Carbonised on July 30, 2019 6:19PM
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    @VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
    To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
    So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

    Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

    You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

    The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

    But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

    So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


    When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

    As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


    The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

    Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.

    Not so much that he doesn't follow the ways of the Nords. Rather that he and his Stormcloaks claim to preserve those ways, while they dishonor far more of it than the Empire does. Also, the Nords haven't worshipped Tiber Septim for 600 years, not even 500, hell, not even 300, it's only been 200, at best.

    I suppose you do also argue that Mars and Neptune are part of Celtic religion. Arguing against this is pointless. Oh, and I suppose that football is also a global cultural thing and not an English thing, despite the English having created it, and being the first ones to practice it. And who am I kidding when I say Pizza is part of Italian culture, when everyone around the globe can buy it?

    Culture doesn't work like that. If you literally copy another culture that doesn't magically make that part of yours. The Greek Pantheon didn't become Roman just because the Romans also created Roman Temples when they conquered Greece. This idea that it's anything else is baseless.

    Just because the Nords of the Fourth Era are ignorant of their own ways and customs doesn't magically make their adaptation of the Empire ''Nordic''.
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    Bruccius wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    @VaranisArano You're right in all of these arguments. One of the most defining arguments, however, is that despite the obscurity of Talos'/Septim's origins and heritage (The Breton Hjalti vs. the Nord/Atmoran Talos), there's still an overwhelming belief among the people of Skyrim that Talos was a Nord originating from Atmora, before he became Tiber Septim (and then ascended as a divine, with the return to his former name Talos). This is evident from plenty of texts and quotes from the people of Skyrim, for instance the lines by Hrongar when you get called by the Greybeards.
    To many people of Skyrim, Talos is an indigenous deity, due to him being of their race and home country, before taking on the mantle of Imperial Emperor.
    So for Bruccius to call Talos an Imperial and foreign deity is both counter-factual and ignorant, but looking at this poster's history here on the forums, it's clear he's trolling in many of the topics here in the lore subforum, presenting his own twisted ideas about the TES lore as "facts", and demeaning everyone who tries to correct him about it, and I find it less than fruitful to engage in discussions with people of this inclination.

    Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture. Talos the person, perhaps, but not the deity. Even Talos the person is only a part of ''Nord culture'' due to Imperial propaganda meant to make the Nords like Talos during his conquests of Tamriel.

    You refuse to use sources to prove me wrong, where as I have plenty to back me up. Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords. Thinking otherwise is just blatantly stupid. It's like saying Mars or Neptune is part of the culture of the Celts because the Romans demanded them to leave offerings for those gods, too. That's just stupid.

    The way I see it, you are right that worship of Talos wasn't originally a Nordic thing. It likely originated as an Imperial thing that Nords learned through their service in the Empire's legions because, as you know, the Nords were a major part of the Legions through the centuries.

    But over the centuries his cult has been around, it has clearly become a Nordic thing. That's pretty clear from the gameplay of Skyrim.

    So what's your gripe against Ulfric? That he, like practically every other Nord in Skyrim, doesn't worship the old Nordic Pantheon? That he, like practically every other Nord prior to the White Gold Concordat, worships Talos? That when he talks about protecting Skyrim and supporting Nord culture, he's talking about [his] culture which is roughly 600 years after Talos and very clearly regards Talos as a god instead of the ancient pre-Tiber Septim nord pantheon or a post-Septim foreign propaganda god?


    When you say things like "Just because the Nords follow the pantheon of the Imperials, doesn't mean that's the way of the Nords", that's not really accurate to Skyrim's gameplay (maybe accurate historically in the 3rd Era, but not by the 4th era). What the Nords do and what they believe as of the time of Skyrim is in fact the way of the 2004E Nords that Ulfric is defending during the events of Skyrim.

    As seen in Skyrim's gameplay: No one in Skyrim objects to Ulfric defending Talos worship as "Un-Nordic" or "We Nords don't worship Talos" or "Talos is an Imperial interloper!" That's because that's not true as of Skyrim! Nords have been worshiping Talos and from what we see, they don't regard him as an imperial interloper (in contrast to the Dunmer of TES 3). The only reason Talos worship is in question in the game is because of the White Gold Concordat, and there, the Nords are either resigned or regard the Imperials as the "faithless" ones. The opposed Nords may disagree with Ulfric's methods or his ambition, but they don't ever indicate that they think he's spitting on Nord Culture by defending Talos. Instead, we see prominent examples like Torygg and Balgruuf who honor Talos in private despite the WGC.


    The only person saying Ulfric is spitting on Nord culture by worshiping Talos is you. The Nords living in Skyrim at the same time don't feel the same way. Their culture at the time of Skyrim clearly includes a good deal of sincere Talos worship, however that started.

    Unless you actually have sources that are more authoritative than Skyrim's gameplay, which I'd like to see.

    Not so much that he doesn't follow the ways of the Nords. Rather that he and his Stormcloaks claim to preserve those ways, while they dishonor far more of it than the Empire does. Also, the Nords haven't worshipped Tiber Septim for 600 years, not even 500, hell, not even 300, it's only been 200, at best.

    I suppose you do also argue that Mars and Neptune are part of Celtic religion. Arguing against this is pointless. Oh, and I suppose that football is also a global cultural thing and not an English thing, despite the English having created it, and being the first ones to practice it. And who am I kidding when I say Pizza is part of Italian culture, when everyone around the globe can buy it?

    Culture doesn't work like that. If you literally copy another culture that doesn't magically make that part of yours. The Greek Pantheon didn't become Roman just because the Romans also created Roman Temples when they conquered Greece. This idea that it's anything else is baseless.

    Just because the Nords of the Fourth Era are ignorant of their own ways and customs doesn't magically make their adaptation of the Empire ''Nordic''.

    The only reason you're bringing Mars and soccer and pizza into the discussion, is because you actually have no evidence backing up your outlandish and absurd claim regarding Talos and the Nords. Q.E.D.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    Carbonised wrote: »
    Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
    And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
    So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

    Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

    The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

    I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
    And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
    So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

    Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

    The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

    I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?

    Your ridiculous "comparison" doesn't become any more true the more you repeat it. And that fact that you're harping on about this issue just proves how obstinate you really are. Varanis and I both proved you wrong, deal with it.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
    ✭✭✭✭
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
    And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
    So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

    Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

    The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

    I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?

    Your ridiculous "comparison" doesn't become any more true the more you repeat it. And that fact that you're harping on about this issue just proves how obstinate you really are. Varanis and I both proved you wrong, deal with it.

    And why is that comparison invalid then? Care to elaborate? Or can't you elaborate? Because it's spot-on?
  • Carbonised
    Carbonised
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Bruccius wrote: »
    Carbonised wrote: »
    Once again Varanis is correct. Even more so, due to the fact that Ysmir is a title, or a pseudo-deity of the Nordic pantheon, much like Shor/Shezarr comes in many aspects/avatars/incarnations as well. Ysmir is the title or divinity bestowed to the Nordic aspect of Talos, which is why he is called Ysmir, Dragon of the North by both the Greybeards and by several other NPCs and sourcebooks in the Skyrim game. A title that is also bestowed upon Wulfharth and the Last Dragonborn. The Nords are the only people who have their own aspect of the god Talos, no other race of Tamriel have a racial aspect of the god, and thus clearly Talos is a god with close ties to especially the Nordic race of all the races of Tamriel (and in many versions, also being a Nord or Atmoran himself before ascending).
    And as Varanis points out, the Nords in Skyrim clearly see Talos as an important deity worthy of worship.
    So once again I'm afraid you're the only one left with no sources. Your claim that "Talos the deity has never been part of Nord culture" is absurd and laughable, considering that half the people of Skyrim basically went to civil war over their deity not being allowed anymore. It's like I said, you come here to these threads with your own twisted personal beliefs of the TES lore and expect everyone else to follow suit, even when you're arguing against established lore.

    Ysmir the title isn't Ysmir the god. Ysmir is Tiber Septim's Nordic aspect. Ysmir the title is the thing bestowed on every Dragonborn who chooses to follow the guidance of the Greybeards. There's a key difference there.

    The reason there's a Nordic aspect of Talos is because Talos' Nordic aspect became a thing when the Greybeards told him his prophecy. You know, back when the Nords still had the honor and respect for the Greybeards to respect their ways.

    I already told you how the Nords worshipping an Imperial Deity does not make said deity Nordic. Need I bring up my Roman comparisons once again?

    Your ridiculous "comparison" doesn't become any more true the more you repeat it. And that fact that you're harping on about this issue just proves how obstinate you really are. Varanis and I both proved you wrong, deal with it.

    And why is that comparison invalid then? Care to elaborate? Or can't you elaborate? Because it's spot-on?

    Maybe if you actually bothered reading what Aranis and I wrote in our posts, instead of simply repeating your own drivel in every reply. But it's like talking to a wall, and I'm not that masochistic, so enjoy talking to yourself.
  • Bruccius
    Bruccius
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    @VaranisArano
    The Nords of Skyrim follow the ways of the Imperials. Not the ways of the Nords. Nordic ''culture'' is practically extinct. The Nords following a culture which isn't theirs doesn't magically change that culture; it changes the Nords.

    The things I've claimed are based on what ESO, the Pocket Guides, and years of Bethesda's lore-works show us. It is no mere coincidence that the Stormcloaks claim to preserve the way of life of the Nords, while spitting on Nord culture.

    You just went and even proved my very point when you brought in the Greeks. The elements the Romans took but not adapted didn't become ''Roman''. The Roman Pantheon was greatly inspired by the Greeks, that is correct... But it was different, hence why it was Roman, and not Greek. Much like how the Nords had their own Pantheon. Or perhaps, in this case, how the Imperials had their own. Imperial Pantheon, combination of Aldmer and Nord, remember? It was adapted and changed.

    Why is it so hard to admit the Nords, or rather, Stormcloaks, don't follow their own ways, but rather those of the Empire before the Great War?

    If you don't want to continue, that's fine, but I'd really recommend you check how cultures work. Just because a society changes to do something else doesn't mean that ''something'' is part of their culture.
    Edited by Bruccius on July 31, 2019 1:02PM
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