Skjaldbjorn wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It already has a cooldown. Using another one within 5s wastes the debuff. I guess this could be changed to 15% damage increase for 10s (no change in overall group DPS contribution, but stacking more than 6 Necros would be pointless). Going further with this, you could go with 10% damage increase for 15s (capping the number of useful Necros at about 4), but IMO 10% damage for Major Vuln is underwhelming when Minor Vuln is 8%.

I still don’t really think Major Vuln is the issue though. Maybe the perception of Major Vuln by the playerbase is more impactful. It takes more than 3 Stamcros using this ultimate to make up the equivalent of one healer with IA.

As a current Mag Sorc main, I’d gladly trade two of my Stamcro allies for a MagDK with Engulfing Flames (speaking only to the impact of group buffs/debuffs on my damage). I’d give up another 2 Stamcros for a Stamblade or Magblade in War Machine or Architect (again DPS neutral, since each Stamcro adds 2% DPS to allies, and War Machine is about 4% gain to recipients). The problem is that a MagDK cannot compete with individual DPS of a Stamcro, and brings no value to Stam DPS allies. A Nightblade in Slayer sets will also struggle to compete with Stamcros in full DPS gear (although I’ve seen some Stamblades do it), and also does nothing for Stam DPS allies because they’re already using Lokke. Fix these issues and the Major Vuln problem will go away.

I get the total fight perspective here, but to me that's not the abuse case. It's a singular example, but look at Nav HM. The statue, you can literally chain atros and just explode them. If you put a CD on boss-flagged mobs being affected by Major Vuln, problem solved. Chaining the atros does nothing after the first until the AoE damage is probably too high to be sustainable. Other DPS classes don't have these benefits. They have ults that bump *their* damage, sure, but not the entire raid group's.

A flat 30% damage buff allows you to just parse through mechanics. That's why Necros are broken. That's why major vuln is an issue.

That’s a fair point. Any mechanic that requires a short period of high burst is ideal for Necros, and they are more valuable there than for sustained DPS. I suppose a lower % with a longer duration would be more balanced there. I do want to point out that with most of these types of examples (Nahvi’s Statues, priority targets in dangerous trash pulls, Yolna’s Flame Atro’s), you currently only need a few Necro ults. They are extremely useful for this situation, but nobody is mandating 8 Necro ults for these because no group requires 40s to deal with these adds. 10-15s burst and the threat is gone.

kaizen914 wrote: »

Sandman929 wrote: »

kaizen914 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro

Classes should be more then just different passives.

Possible whoosh...

But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.

But he said the magic "class defining " thing. That means cloak is the same as Major Vulnerability, right?

Sandman929 wrote: »

kaizen914 wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro

Classes should be more then just different passives.

Possible whoosh...

But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.

But he said the magic "class defining " thing. That means cloak is the same as Major Vulnerability, right?

In his defense, necros are completely defined by major ult because all of their other skills are broken garbage.

That and having the strongest execute dps in the game.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

That’s a fair point. Any mechanic that requires a short period of high burst is ideal for Necros, and they are more valuable there than for sustained DPS. I suppose a lower % with a longer duration would be more balanced there. I do want to point out that with most of these types of examples (Nahvi’s Statues, priority targets in dangerous trash pulls, Yolna’s Flame Atro’s), you currently only need a few Necro ults. They are extremely useful for this situation, but nobody is mandating 8 Necro ults for these because no group requires 40s to deal with these adds. 10-15s burst and the threat is gone.

But those abuse cases actually are why Necros are favored. At the end-game, it's all about ignoring mechanics. Finding ways to not stop parsing and just ignore threatening aspects of a fight. Again, using nav HM as an example, when I did that fight with high-end groups that actually had records for other trials, it was still really close getting a 1-phase even with vuln, but it's definitely doable. Without Necros, that's 2-phase minimum. You just can't pump out that much damage consistently without Necros.

And on another note, Necro basically make every execute phase in the game a complete joke. We all know damage ramps hella hard in execute as it is, Necros allow you to save those ults toward the end of a fight and ramp it 30% harder. Before Necros, it was incredibly difficult to 3-pad vMOL HM. Now, bunches of groups have done it. You don't require the luck of getting a gun on a specific pad, or him animating on pad 3 to prevent the boom.

Nav HM, you can just pop off eight ultis chained once he starts dropping meteors, and you will never by any shred of the imagination be at risk of that mechanic doing anything meaningful unless your DPS are just completely morons and drop them in group.

I know your name, I don't really know who you run with, but man i've sat in the conversations with some damn high end-game groups, and it's literally "How can we abuse this mechanic and parse through it?" To say Necros aren't the golden child because of the abuse cases they present and the ability to just ignore mechanics and keep face-rolling on the keyboard, I don't even know. That's exactly why they're super great. Even on a dummy, without vuln, their damage is really good but nowhere near as dominant.

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

@Skjaldbjorn I mainly run with Nightfighters (Caravan Guards), and fill for a few other groups. You’re not wrong about skipping mechanics. The primary tactic I’m seeing now in all the top groups is to just not kill the statues. A tank just holds all 4 of them away from the group and everyone burns down the dragon.

@WrathOfInnos Tbh when I was progging nav HM with GB they were already attempting that lol It's a risky, weird ass strat that can work but I think it's just easier to kill at least a couple of them. Especially if you can 1-phase them with Necro stupidity.

Stamcro is definitely the golden child, and nothing can beat them when it comes to doing a static rotation in a parse fight like Yolna. All I’m saying is that a group with half Necros can skip mechanics just as easily as a group with all Necros. I would argue that when it comes to actually doing mechanics, other classes can do better (Stamcro is not great for Nahvi downstairs, and they lose a lot of DPS when Lokke’s Ice Cages interrupt their rotation). It’s still a problem that anything requires several of one class to do effectively, and that should absolutely be fixed.

You're right, and that's precisely why i've said the cooldown is the best option. A cooldown, a static, on-boss cooldown is by far the best way to prevent the circumventing of mechanics. I mean sure, we could drop the damage to 15% and double the duration, and that would help, but i'd rather keep the ability as a pure, crazy hard damage ramp that you just can't spam all the time. I think that's a better method. It keeps the identity of the skill, it keeps the insanely hard ramp, it keeps the impact the same without it being an abuse tool to just make content irrelevant.

I think the biggest issue is players just don't want to have to do anything difficult. That's the central reason why groups worry so much about skipping mechanics. A lot of the players in ESO's end-game that i've met and played with, they're great at rolling their face across their keyboard, but doing complex mechanics, they're done. They're dead or failing. It's pathetic. The end-gamers in ESO by and large would have been in WoW a bunch of mid-tier scrubs who never cleared much HM content, because parsers were only so good, and mechanics still had to get done. You couldn't just ignore them.

Maybe i'm biased. Maybe I think mechanics should actually be the central theme of the fight because of my like 15 years playing nearly every MMO that's hit the market. Maybe people want a dumbed-down, simplistic, "parse-till-you-win" style of play, but it's not rewarding, it's not challenging and it's going to be the death of ESO in the long-term.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

Unpopular opinion inc

Major Vulnerability should only be on the magicka version of the ultimate so that the lesser dps version of the class (necro) brings more utility than the highest dps in the game (Stam Necro)

You know people will just pick the magic morph regardless, the actual damage it does is irrelevant.


Honestly this whole thing sounds like a problem for the 1% and those who are jealous of the 1%.

I'm currently in progression groups, and participating in weekly score runs. None of us feel pressure to be a Necro, and doing fine. A lot of us are on our mains, which are a few years old. Usually have a wide range of classes most runs. If people want to turn endgame into a "joke" that's on them and their crew. I know people who have been in all Cro groups and it sounded hilarious and fun. But that same group could replace their Cros with another class and still slap content.

I know people are going to complain until Zos do something about it, because that's how it goes, but if you want to talk "game-breaking" well it's entirely on you whether you want to break the game or not. My game isn't broken.