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Standardize Major Vuln or Add More Major Dmg Ults
kaizen914
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Title says it all. If ZoS is going to standardize they need to do it to the most obvious culprit.
Options/ideas:
1. ZoS could look into making large damage buff ults more common. maybe even keep Major Vuln as the strongest one by a tiny bit to give necro some advantage.
It wouldn't actually cause much power creep because major vuln already exists and people are stacking 8 necros to keep it up.
An easy example would be storm atro buff being available to multiple people.
2. Off balance treatment applied to major vuln. Maybe 40 seconds in between major vuln applications.
3. Remove major vuln and buff necros if they need it to stay relevant
Options/ideas:
1. ZoS could look into making large damage buff ults more common. maybe even keep Major Vuln as the strongest one by a tiny bit to give necro some advantage.
It wouldn't actually cause much power creep because major vuln already exists and people are stacking 8 necros to keep it up.
An easy example would be storm atro buff being available to multiple people.
2. Off balance treatment applied to major vuln. Maybe 40 seconds in between major vuln applications.
3. Remove major vuln and buff necros if they need it to stay relevant
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satanio✭✭✭✭They'll just make bosses imunne to Major Vulnerability, just like they are imunne to Minor Mangle. I hope I'm wrong but it seems like it will come to that.2
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BattleAxe✭✭✭✭✭Ultimates should inherently help the group aka storm atro should provide that buff just by being used standard of mights bonus effect should apply to everyone within its aoe
Edit for autocorrection issuesEdited by BattleAxe on July 29, 2019 7:12AM5 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭It also doesn’t help that the group benefit from other classes running war machine/master architect has been made rather redundant by the Lokkestiiz set.4 -
TheNightflame✭✭✭✭✭Year of the: mono-class raids, lack of dps set coordination (though SB has some cool ones and changes), and death of the healer role/birth of off healing DDS2
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WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭As much as I don’t like to see 8 of the same build being the meta, I think Major Vuln is just one small aspect of the problem. To put it another way, if magden and stamcro were to switch ultimates right now, I don’t believe the trial meta would be 8 magdens for the Major Vuln. It’s the combination of stamcro being high solo DPS, bringing a group buff that stacks (unlike things like Minor Savagery/Prophecy/Brutality/Sorcery/Breach/Fracture), and the Lokkestiiz set (that has negated other support DPS builds with WM and MA, and works best with Necro due to their self-synergy).Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 29, 2019 6:24PM1 -
Prutton✭✭✭Major Vulnerability is exactly what makes necros desirable in parties. Because of that, all other classes are inferior. One solution would be to give a unique area buff/debuff to each class. For example, if sorcerer atronach ult caused major berserker in area (including self) for 5s, everyone would also want sorcerers in the party. That way, people would probably divide the team between necros and sorcerers, instead of accepting only stamcros. The same logics can apply to all other classes: give them some godly buff/debuff, and people will want them to be played.Edited by Prutton on July 29, 2019 4:59PM0
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Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭2. Off balance treatment applied to major vuln. Maybe 40 seconds in between major vuln applications.
Been saying this for months. The precedent is already there. Put a damn cooldown on it. Make Necros actually learn to time their ults and manage their cooldowns, and remove the ability to take key phases of fights and just atro spam to ignore them.0 -
Insco851✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cooldown.
Don’t Neuter a whole class with this trash “standardization” meta.Edited by Insco851 on July 29, 2019 5:02PM4 -
kojou✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭While I don't disagree with additional ways to proc Major Vulnerability, I hope it isn't balanced through a cool down... I don't think adding one more thing to track will add fun to the game.Playing since beta...0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »
Cooldowns suck.
Just let other classes compete by offering meaningful group DPS buffs.
Let Summon Storm Atronach be synergized by 4 or 6 people.
Let Dragonknight Standard give the damage bonus to all allies in the circle.
Let Feral Guardian give a unique buff to pet damage to all nearby allies for 10 seconds.
Let Radial Sweep grant Empower to nearby allies for 10 seconds.
Obviously I'm just spitballing here. The only one I'm struggling to fit into this is Death Stroke, because obviously granting +20% damage to the target to all nearby allies would be insanely OP in PvP.1 -
caperon✭✭✭✭I just want that everyone inside my banner gets the unnamed 15% damage increase. Make Dk great again!0
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Qbiken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Major Vulnerability shouldn´t exist in the game at all. Remove it and rebalance vSS speedrun to 40 minutes. Done.3 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Let Feral Guardian give a unique buff to pet damage to all nearby allies for 10 seconds..
Yes, let's give Wardens a buff to pets that Zos just finished nerfing the ever-loving hell out of. Solid, competes with a 30% flat damage buff.
To actually equalize the damage Necro ult delivers, the power creep would become completely unsustainable. It was a bad idea when they did it, and any solution is going to "suck". There's a cooldown on off-balance. I see no reason why players actually having to use their brains and time the effect debuff cooldown is an issue.0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭One option could be to reduce the group damage done bonus to a much smaller number, maybe over a longer time. Let the caster keep the full current value. This would at least reduce the benefit of bringing as many necros as possible.
I was thinking major vulnerability could then be added to a proc-on-ultime 5 piece set, but I can’t imagine how to balance that. Or if we have to have major vulnerability then add it to soul strike, mostly because I think it would be funny.0 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Let Feral Guardian give a unique buff to pet damage to all nearby allies for 10 seconds..
Yes, let's give Wardens a buff to pets that Zos just finished nerfing the ever-loving hell out of. Solid, competes with a 30% flat damage buff.
To actually equalize the damage Necro ult delivers, the power creep would become completely unsustainable. It was a bad idea when they did it, and any solution is going to "suck". There's a cooldown on off-balance. I see no reason why players actually having to use their brains and time the effect debuff cooldown is an issue.
Well that's the thing. There wouldn't be much power creep because top groups already stack 8 necros. As long as you can't get 100% uptime on any of the buffs there is no creep0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭One option could be to reduce the group damage done bonus to a much smaller number, maybe over a longer time. Let the caster keep the full current value. This would at least reduce the benefit of bringing as many necros as possible.
I was thinking major vulnerability could then be added to a proc-on-ultime 5 piece set, but I can’t imagine how to balance that. Or if we have to have major vulnerability then add it to soul strike, mostly because I think it would be funny.
Not a terrible idea tbh. Make it work like Nightblade ult. Atro does AoE damage, but only the caster gets the 30% damage buff.0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Let Feral Guardian give a unique buff to pet damage to all nearby allies for 10 seconds..
Yes, let's give Wardens a buff to pets that Zos just finished nerfing the ever-loving hell out of. Solid, competes with a 30% flat damage buff.
To actually equalize the damage Necro ult delivers, the power creep would become completely unsustainable. It was a bad idea when they did it, and any solution is going to "suck". There's a cooldown on off-balance. I see no reason why players actually having to use their brains and time the effect debuff cooldown is an issue.
Well that's the thing. There wouldn't be much power creep because top groups already stack 8 necros. As long as you can't get 100% uptime on any of the buffs there is no creep
The power creep is already an issue. That's my point. You'd have to buff elements SO hard to compete, they'd inevitably break something. It's better to nerf the atro for Necro, than buff literally everything else.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It already has a cooldown. Using another one within 5s wastes the debuff. I guess this could be changed to 15% damage increase for 10s (no change in overall group DPS contribution, but stacking more than 6 Necros would be pointless). Going further with this, you could go with 10% damage increase for 15s (capping the number of useful Necros at about 4), but IMO 10% damage for Major Vuln is underwhelming when Minor Vuln is 8%.
I still don’t really think Major Vuln is the issue though. Maybe the perception of Major Vuln by the playerbase is more impactful. It takes more than 3 Stamcros using this ultimate to make up the equivalent of one healer with IA.
As a current Mag Sorc main, I’d gladly trade two of my Stamcro allies for a MagDK with Engulfing Flames (speaking only to the impact of group buffs/debuffs on my damage). I’d give up another 2 Stamcros for a Stamblade or Magblade in War Machine or Architect (again DPS neutral, since each Stamcro adds 2% DPS to allies, and War Machine is about 4% gain to recipients). The problem is that a MagDK cannot compete with individual DPS of a Stamcro, and brings no value to Stam DPS allies. A Nightblade in Slayer sets will also struggle to compete with Stamcros in full DPS gear (although I’ve seen some Stamblades do it), and also does nothing for Stam DPS allies because they’re already using Lokke. Fix these issues and the Major Vuln problem will go away.Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 29, 2019 6:43PM0 -
Skjaldbjorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »It already has a cooldown. Using another one within 5s wastes the debuff. I guess this could be changed to 15% damage increase for 10s (no change in overall group DPS contribution, but stacking more than 6 Necros would be pointless). Going further with this, you could go with 10% damage increase for 15s (capping the number of useful Necros at about 4), but IMO 10% damage for Major Vuln is underwhelming when Minor Vuln is 8%.
I still don’t really think Major Vuln is the issue though. Maybe the perception of Major Vuln by the playerbase is more impactful. It takes more than 3 Stamcros using this ultimate to make up the equivalent of one healer with IA.
As a current Mag Sorc main, I’d gladly trade two of my Stamcro allies for a MagDK with Engulfing Flames (speaking only to the impact of group buffs/debuffs on my damage). I’d give up another 2 Stamcros for a Stamblade or Magblade in War Machine or Architect (again DPS neutral, since each Stamcro adds 2% DPS to allies, and War Machine is about 4% gain to recipients). The problem is that a MagDK cannot compete with individual DPS of a Stamcro, and brings no value to Stam DPS allies. A Nightblade in Slayer sets will also struggle to compete with Stamcros in full DPS gear (although I’ve seen some Stamblades do it), and also does nothing for Stam DPS allies because they’re already using Lokke. Fix these issues and the Major Vuln problem will go away.
I get the total fight perspective here, but to me that's not the abuse case. It's a singular example, but look at Nav HM. The statue, you can literally chain atros and just explode them. If you put a CD on boss-flagged mobs being affected by Major Vuln, problem solved. Chaining the atros does nothing after the first until the AoE damage is probably too high to be sustainable. Other DPS classes don't have these benefits. They have ults that bump *their* damage, sure, but not the entire raid group's.
A flat 30% damage buff allows you to just parse through mechanics. That's why Necros are broken. That's why major vuln is an issue.0 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro
Classes should be more then just different passives.Looking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skjaldbjorn wrote: »LiquidPony wrote: »Let Feral Guardian give a unique buff to pet damage to all nearby allies for 10 seconds..
Yes, let's give Wardens a buff to pets that Zos just finished nerfing the ever-loving hell out of. Solid, competes with a 30% flat damage buff.
To actually equalize the damage Necro ult delivers, the power creep would become completely unsustainable. It was a bad idea when they did it, and any solution is going to "suck". There's a cooldown on off-balance. I see no reason why players actually having to use their brains and time the effect debuff cooldown is an issue.
The cooldown on off-balance was a stupid, obtuse solution that no one likes. How are console players going to track this?
And a pet damage buff could buff Spiders, Scamps, Storm Atros, Twilights, Blastbones, Skeletal Archers, Bears, Shades, and probably some other stuff I'm not thinking of. And anyway, activating the Bear ulti could do something else entirely, I'm just throwing out some ideas that fit with the existing class themes.0 -
kaizen914✭✭✭I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro
Classes should be more then just different passives.
Possible whoosh...
But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.0 -
Sandman929✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro
Classes should be more then just different passives.
Possible whoosh...
But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.
But he said the magic "class defining " thing. That means cloak is the same as Major Vulnerability, right?0 -
kaizen914✭✭✭Sandman929 wrote: »I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro
Classes should be more then just different passives.
Possible whoosh...
But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.
But he said the magic "class defining " thing. That means cloak is the same as Major Vulnerability, right?Sandman929 wrote: »I’d say a big no in my opinion, major vuln is like a defining ability for Necros. Imo if you want some things play that class:
Streak - sorc
Cloak - NB
Breath of life/ritual - templar
Spores - Warden
Stupid tankiness (health regen/major mending) and wings - DK
Major vuln and temp pets - necro
Classes should be more then just different passives.
Possible whoosh...
But none of those things come even close to the utility/power of major vuln. You're throwing out random class skills and saying they are comparable to the strongest major damage buff in the game.
But he said the magic "class defining " thing. That means cloak is the same as Major Vulnerability, right?
In his defense, necros are completely defined by major ult because all of their other skills are broken garbage.2