evoniee wrote: »

it just not right to have a high damage spamable + stun + dot with 41m range in live.
get ur f-in mind, is it a utility, a dot or spamable.

Nobody is really arguing that.

Still the ability morph destructive reach as is on pts is underperforming compared to literally every other singletarget dot.

Saril_Durzam wrote: »

evoniee wrote: »

it just not right to have a high damage spamable + stun + dot with 41m range in live (it is not 41).
get ur f-in mind, is it a utility, a dot or spamable.

also dont compare this with bow stun, it cost higer, lower damage (better to use inject if you want spamable anyway)

To be honest, both skills were very comparable. Draining shoot both in PvE and PvP keeps me healed while im CCing, i use it every day. Clench changes the heal for the dot.

After patch, both will be nerfed but i feel the clench got a heavier nerf.

clench is a worse version of magnum shot.
reach is a worse version of poison injection.

it´s just sad.

Actually after theorycrafting my magblade and evaluating the skill choices, espeically with master staff, it also appears to me that both morphs are pretty subpar.

I mean the clench morph stays pretty much the same, with less damage on initial hit and no tiny dot, but significantly reduced cost. Imo the main problem of the "spamm" of this ability was the high direct damage, not the dot. Also, if they shifted the damage from the direct damage part to the dot part, it would further discourage spamming as the dot overwrites itself.

The reach morph however feels even worse, as it lost its most important aspect (secondary effect), is now even less direct damage but in turn you gain that huge dot damage. Basically it shifted towards a generic dot with a bit of upfront damage, but this discourages using the ability as "a spammable" too, even if you choose that morph. Im not sure about tooltips, but due to the standardization, entropy grants no upfront damage but a major buff + healing or sustain. The whole skill seems pretty subpar.

My suggestion:
Make clench a high dot and CC, but remove the initial damage.
Increase the upfront damage of reach to just below single target standards, with the same dot attached. This way people with master staff can actually use it as a spammable, but give up on the dot component.

olsborg wrote: »

Ectheliontnacil wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.

@Mayrael makes a good point with draining shot.
Also there's a number of ability altering weapons that are BiS for pvp. It's just the way it is. And it's not like the master staff was nerfed. They needlessly nerfed the underlying ability.

Yes. The whole point with master staff was making reach a spammable. Now they made reach a 10s dot effectively killing the skill as a good dmg spammable even with master staff. Master staff needs to change the skill drasticly to a spammable again, even remove the dot. Or do something else entirely with it, as it is...master staff is basicly trash on pts.

There are other options for having a spammable, and fortunately none of those have a stun attached to them. Master Staff turning a stun into a spammable damage ability was bad for PvP, and it's a good thing that it's gone. I would fully support changing the Master Staff bonus into something PvE-oriented, but am absolutely against reverting it to something that's oftentimes top dog in PvP.

Derra wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.

Actually that´s not the case.
It does less damage than entropy and the same as soultrap but is dodgeable due to being an initial hit dot (and soultrap is also either aoe or has massive resource return on kill - aka added functionality) - both don´t require a specific weapon.
It does also less dmg than virtually any class dot.

It has less functionality than comparable weapon dots: Poison injection would be a comparable ranged dot and is ahead in basically every regard.
Rending slashes is the same.

Then both Bow and DW have masterweapons of which the functionality that aligns with the skill design as a dot.
Masterstaff just got massively weaker due to the initial hit nerf + base cost reduction of the skill and spamming being actually harmful for the ability now.

Destructive Reach is an underperforming ability morph in every way you can compare it to other abilities on pts.

The only reason it has less damage-per-cast than Entropy is the Mage's Guild passive that increases duration. Unless we want to argue that this makes Entropy overpowered/out-of-line with other DOTs, I think it's still accurate to say that Destructive Reach's total damage is comparable to other magicka DOTs.

Granted, those DOTs have other functionality, but so does Destructive Reach (via triggering status effects based on staff type). It's possible that this potential for status effects isn't good enough when compared to other DOT options, especially since the damage of Burning in PvP is pretty negligible, but I don't think it's a terrible skill overall.

If it's true that non-execute damage from Poison Injection is matching or exceeding that of Reach (I haven't checked that myself), then I think that's definitely a problem that needs to be addressed. Either add some execute scaling to Reach (which would be welcome on my Necromancer and Warden for sure), or reduce the base damage on Poison Injection.

jonathanb16_ESO wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.

I really think the stun is ok, usally if you don't want to get stunned from reach you just doge or block it, i think its really easy to couterplay, compared to some other stuns... Looking at you fossilize!

So if you see big bad fiery ring, just Block lol.

When it's a spammable, that basically requires permablocking.