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Why the flame/shock reach nerf?
Ectheliontnacil
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Taking a quick look at this I really don't understand this change.
The ability was not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, right?
Like a 3k cost and low damage plus a simple stun. Only with the master staves it became a decent spammable, which seems reasonable since you give up two slots.
And it's not like it's overpowered compared to other spammables that are buffed by skill altering weapons. Force pulse gives you permanent status effect uptime with the vAS staff (that's 3 dots and 15% dmg reduction to the enemy and 8% dmg increase to you).
Carve just does insane dmg to zergs ontop of being a good spammable with extra functionality with the master 2h.
And the point is it gave magicka classes without a viable stun a unique spammable. And as far is I know those builds weren't brokenly op. Or at least not because of flame reach.
The ability was not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, right?
Like a 3k cost and low damage plus a simple stun. Only with the master staves it became a decent spammable, which seems reasonable since you give up two slots.
And it's not like it's overpowered compared to other spammables that are buffed by skill altering weapons. Force pulse gives you permanent status effect uptime with the vAS staff (that's 3 dots and 15% dmg reduction to the enemy and 8% dmg increase to you).
Carve just does insane dmg to zergs ontop of being a good spammable with extra functionality with the master 2h.
And the point is it gave magicka classes without a viable stun a unique spammable. And as far is I know those builds weren't brokenly op. Or at least not because of flame reach.
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.28 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.
Mhm that's why draining shot has better range and heal attached? ZOS and THEIR vision of "balance". Clearly magicka classes are OP LOL
:D "We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.20 -
Ectheliontnacil✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.
@Mayrael makes a good point with draining shot.
Also there's a number of ability altering weapons that are BiS for pvp. It's just the way it is. And it's not like the master staff was nerfed. They needlessly nerfed the underlying ability.12 -
LeHarrt91✭✭✭✭✭
✭I get the damage nerf, but some classes relied on that stun. What if they keep the nerf to the burst damage and have a stun on all 3. Flame stun/ Knockback, Frost Stun/ Immobilise, Shock Stun/Off Balance.
Also if Master was the main issue they could have changed the bonus to be to the Damage of Time rather than the Burst component.
PS NA
Have played all classes.
Warden Main5 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭People talk about spammable Reach being the most OP thing... while conveniently ignoring the fact that two frontbar slots are sacrificed in the process.
Master Reach builds incurred a deficit in overall stat density, and have done so since Summerset. I've made many threads on past PTS' regarding the issue, the latest of which is this one.
That's not to say they weren't good; they were. The value of Master destro, however, lay in the fact that it saved you a barslot by combining your spammable and CC into one slot.
Passively CCing via your spammable is often touted as a big benefit to the build, but it's a mixed bag in practice. Just as often, you'll be giving your target free CC immunity which may ruin your burst windows.
The new destro touch took a huge damage nerf, and loses either the CC or the DoT depending on morph choice, qualitatively killing the utility of Master Destro.
At least Sorcs have decent-ish alternatives in the form of Cage and the newly buffed Streak. Other classes (Magden in particular) were totally reliant on Master builds to have a complete toolkit in solo play, and this change leaves them high and dry.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden12 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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The new destro touch took a huge damage nerf, and loses either the CC or the DoT depending on morph choice, qualitatively killing the utility of Master Destro.
That´s an issue for a few ability altering weapons now though - they have fallen out of touch with how zenimax envisions the ability to be used and i hope they will be adressed (particularly masterstaff to also discourage spamming clench as an anytimed spammable 15m stun).
On topic i can only say: I agree with the nerf to reach - though i would have done it differently. I´d have changed masterstaff to no longer transform the ability into a spammable.
A spammable anytime stun mechanic is detrimental to the game and is essentially a defensive carry mechanic imo.
It´s exponentially harder to kill a player that uses an anytime damage spammable ranged stun than it is to kill one that uses a dedicated stun ability in all cases but the top 10% of the playerbase.Edited by Derra on July 23, 2019 7:16AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 504 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
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The new destro touch took a huge damage nerf, and loses either the CC or the DoT depending on morph choice, qualitatively killing the utility of Master Destro.
A spammable anytime stun mechanic is detrimental to the game and is essentially a defensive carry mechanic imo.
It´s exponentially harder to kill a player that uses an anytime damage spammable ranged stun than it is to kill one that uses a dedicated stun ability in all cases but the top 10% of the playerbase.
I'd say it's a high floor, low ceiling issue. Really easy for bad players to stay alive using Reach spam, but for good players it's equally a hindrance since it impedes coordination of burst+CC windows.
The best and most lethal Sorcs I've fought on PCNA have infact been using Elewep, Cage, & Overload combos, case in point.
Either way, ZOS has made their intentions for the skill clear. In the meantime, I'll adapt my build and hope future changes make the Master destro relevant again.PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden2 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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That's not a good comparison, since Draining Shot isn't being used to replace Snipe as the primary single target damaging ability.
Mhm that's why draining shot has better range and heal attached? ZOS and THEIR vision of "balance". Clearly magicka classes are OP LOLWeapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.:D
I think it's more accurate to say that Destructive Clench and Reach were "changed" rather than "nerfed." While it's true that you can no longer use an instant cast, 28m range ability as both a good spammable and a CC, it's just as true that the ability now offers a solid magicka-based DOT, and is significantly cheaper than it used to be (especially for those without Master Staves).Ectheliontnacil wrote: »
Also there's a number of ability altering weapons that are BiS for pvp. It's just the way it is. And it's not like the master staff was nerfed. They needlessly nerfed the underlying ability.Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.
And yes, there are some other PvE weapons that are too good for PvP...But that doesn't mean that the live versions of Destructive Reach and Master Destruction Staff should have been left alone. It's far better to keep the 5.1 changes and work on improving other CC options (especially for Magicka Necromancer and Magicka Warden).
There are multiple options for getting around the supposedly big problem of not having double 5 piece sets active on your front bar, which is why such a huge amount of people are running Master Destruction Staves on live (especially Magicka Wardens and Magicka Sorcerers...plus Magicka Necromancers I guess, if people were actually playing those in "high end" PvP). Saving that bar slot and having CC + damage spam rolled into one GCD is absolutely worth being "forced" into using something like Willpower Jewelry + BRP Resto, or back bar Lich/Armor Master/etc...People talk about spammable Reach being the most OP thing... while conveniently ignoring the fact that two frontbar slots are sacrificed in the process.
Master Reach builds incurred a deficit in overall stat density, and have done so since Summerset. I've made many threads on past PTS' regarding the issue, the latest of which is this one.
That's not to say they weren't good; they were. The value of Master destro, however, lay in the fact that it saved you a barslot by combining your spammable and CC into one slot.
Passively CCing via your spammable is often touted as a big benefit to the build, but it's a mixed bag in practice. Just as often, you'll be giving your target free CC immunity which may ruin your burst windows.
The new destro touch took a huge damage nerf, and loses either the CC or the DoT depending on morph choice, qualitatively killing the utility of Master Destro.
At least Sorcs have decent-ish alternatives in the form of Cage and the newly buffed Streak. Other classes (Magden in particular) were totally reliant on Master builds to have a complete toolkit in solo play, and this change leaves them high and dry.
There are indeed some instances where you may be better off not using a Master Staff on live, but those are really rather niche, as your last sentence indicates. I played Magicka Warden as a main from Morrowind's early access until Elsweyr early access, and never once used a Master Staff. It was/is absolutely a viable way to play, but I'm not delusional - I absolutely would have been better off in almost all situations had I been using one, and that's a problem.
Is this for duels or CP-enabled Cyrodiil or something? I don't remember the last time I saw a good Magicka Warden or Magicka Sorcerer in BGs that was using a spammable other than Clench/Reach with a Master Destruction Staff.[
The best and most lethal Sorcs I've fought on PCNA have infact been using Elewep, Cage, & Overload combos, case in point.4 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.
Master Bow, Master DW, Blackrose Resto, Blackrose DW. Just the way it is. VMA weapons when they had weapon and spell damage as well.0 -
WuffyCerulei✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It does pretty decent direct damage on live. Zos is leaning less towards having active skills that both stun and deal high damage. Ultimates are kinda different."Buzz Lightyear toy isle shot" Stormcalling/Animal Companions/Assassination PVP build hater
Bring Back Pure Class Build Power0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The main issue i see for the skill now is that it´s just not a good dot.
Comparing it to other weapon dots:
PI or rending slashes just makes me never wanna slot reach.
Who can look at those skills that fill exactly the same functionality and label reach in line with the other two. Makes no sense to me. None.
Then PI and rending also have masterweapons that are miles ahead of staff...Edited by Derra on July 24, 2019 6:25AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 505 -
josh.lackey_ESO✭✭✭✭✭WuffyCerulei wrote: »It does pretty decent direct damage on live. Zos is leaning less towards having active skills that both stun and deal high damage. Ultimates are kinda different.
Except it doesn't do high damage. Even with Master destro it only does medium damage.0 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭^ this. Master Reach hits for comparable damage to Force Pulse.
Force Pulse even wins once your max mag + spell damage is above a certain point, eg. 3k SD + 31.6k mag (or any other combination that equates to the same result at a 1:10.5 ratio).
View this old post of mine for a breakdown on the math:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/5988002/#Comment_5988002PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden1 -
Trancestor✭✭✭✭✭So how tf does flame clench/reach work now? In the latest pts they say flame clench stuns but didn't they remove the stun from clench? They say flame clench ranks up with dmg again, is that just the dot dmg?0
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wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Destructive Reach no longer has any special effect based on staff type (so no knockback, stun, or root), has ~17% lower direct damage than it does on live, but much higher damage over time. This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.Trancestor wrote: »So how tf does flame clench/reach work now? In the latest pts they say flame clench stuns but didn't they remove the stun from clench? They say flame clench ranks up with dmg again, is that just the dot dmg?
Destructive Clench does have a special effect based on your staff: Flame Clench has a knockback, Shock Clench becomes AOE around the target, and Frost Clench roots. The direct damage portion of this morph was also reduced by about 17%, the DOT portion removed entirely, and the range reduced by 2 meters (making it 15m instead of the 17m that it is on live). These changes transform the spell into a utility skill for Flame/Frost, and an AOE spammable for Shock (but I'm not 100% sure how the damage compares to Impulse).
Both morphs had their cost reduced quite substantially compared to what it is on live, and thus far no changes have been made to Master Destruction Staves.1 -
Aedrion✭✭✭✭✭Weapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.
Sums it up perfectly.
A cheap, ranged, fast spammable should not have a CC on it. On live, Reach is a broken skill because it brainlessly CC's every 8 seconds. This is the same reason ZoS nerfed frags by taking away the stun.6 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
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Destructive Reach no longer has any special effect based on staff type (so no knockback, stun, or root), has ~17% lower direct damage than it does on live, but much higher damage over time. This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.Trancestor wrote: »So how tf does flame clench/reach work now? In the latest pts they say flame clench stuns but didn't they remove the stun from clench? They say flame clench ranks up with dmg again, is that just the dot dmg?
Destructive Clench does have a special effect based on your staff: Flame Clench has a knockback, Shock Clench becomes AOE around the target, and Frost Clench roots. The direct damage portion of this morph was also reduced by about 17%, the DOT portion removed entirely, and the range reduced by 2 meters (making it 15m instead of the 17m that it is on live). These changes transform the spell into a utility skill for Flame/Frost, and an AOE spammable for Shock (but I'm not 100% sure how the damage compares to Impulse).
Both morphs had their cost reduced quite substantially compared to what it is on live, and thus far no changes have been made to Master Destruction Staves.
Shock clench is basically trash as hell and completely useless now0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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Destructive Reach no longer has any special effect based on staff type (so no knockback, stun, or root), has ~17% lower direct damage than it does on live, but much higher damage over time. This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.Trancestor wrote: »So how tf does flame clench/reach work now? In the latest pts they say flame clench stuns but didn't they remove the stun from clench? They say flame clench ranks up with dmg again, is that just the dot dmg?
Destructive Clench does have a special effect based on your staff: Flame Clench has a knockback, Shock Clench becomes AOE around the target, and Frost Clench roots. The direct damage portion of this morph was also reduced by about 17%, the DOT portion removed entirely, and the range reduced by 2 meters (making it 15m instead of the 17m that it is on live). These changes transform the spell into a utility skill for Flame/Frost, and an AOE spammable for Shock (but I'm not 100% sure how the damage compares to Impulse).
Both morphs had their cost reduced quite substantially compared to what it is on live, and thus far no changes have been made to Master Destruction Staves.
Shock clench is basically trash as hell and completely useless now
10k aoe for 1.6k mag, completely useless, yup.
even without the master staff
right in line with other aoe spammables, but much lower cost and shorter range.
here the skill tooltips without any staff bonus-
Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on July 25, 2019 10:03PM1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
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That's not a good comparison, since Draining Shot isn't being used to replace Snipe as the primary single target damaging ability.
Mhm that's why draining shot has better range and heal attached? ZOS and THEIR vision of "balance". Clearly magicka classes are OP LOLWeapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.:D
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That's a simple comparison of skills, clench and draining shot. Why first one have been nerfed into uselessness while draining shot has not only greater range, but also better cc and provides heal on hit? Why magicka classes get their nonclass cc nerfed while stamina recieves best cc in the game (turn evil)? So it's ok to give skill like that to stamina but nerf Psijic order bubble into the ground by skyrocketing the cost?"We are currently investigating connection issues some players are having on the European megaservers. We will update as new information becomes available."
— They always claim they’re “investigating” the causes, but in reality they’re just waiting until the PC EU players go to bed. Once that happens, you can suddenly log in again and they happily mark the issue as Fixed.0 -
frostz417✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Destructive Reach no longer has any special effect based on staff type (so no knockback, stun, or root), has ~17% lower direct damage than it does on live, but much higher damage over time. This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.Trancestor wrote: »So how tf does flame clench/reach work now? In the latest pts they say flame clench stuns but didn't they remove the stun from clench? They say flame clench ranks up with dmg again, is that just the dot dmg?
Destructive Clench does have a special effect based on your staff: Flame Clench has a knockback, Shock Clench becomes AOE around the target, and Frost Clench roots. The direct damage portion of this morph was also reduced by about 17%, the DOT portion removed entirely, and the range reduced by 2 meters (making it 15m instead of the 17m that it is on live). These changes transform the spell into a utility skill for Flame/Frost, and an AOE spammable for Shock (but I'm not 100% sure how the damage compares to Impulse).
Both morphs had their cost reduced quite substantially compared to what it is on live, and thus far no changes have been made to Master Destruction Staves.
Shock clench is basically trash as hell and completely useless now
10k aoe for 1.6k mag, completely useless, yup.
even without the master staff
right in line with other aoe spammables, but much lower cost and shorter range.
here the skill tooltips without any staff bonus-
It’s still better on live in every aspect. It’s recieving a 17% direct damage reduction and losing its DoT as well as stun infavor of a cheaper cost? Yea it’s trash as hell compared to what it is on live.
I don’t care to see 10k tooltip stats on a build that only has damage sets on and no sustain&defense sets on.Edited by frostz417 on July 25, 2019 10:09PM2 -
rasdasa✭✭I agree, of all my skills in rotation this one seemed the most balanced, not cheap, no major damage but a short stun and quick cast. Really, this should have been left alone.1
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leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The skill was a low cost, decent dmg, ranged, stun and had a dot attached to it. With master staff.
When a skill designed to be low dmg and cc become a better spammable than force pulse then yeah it needed nerfing.
Zos had already said they didn't want cc's tied to dmg spam skills. This was a low cost, ranged, cc, dmg and dot skill in one.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...2 -
LeHarrt91✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »The skill was a low cost, decent dmg, ranged, stun and had a dot attached to it. With master staff.
When a skill designed to be low dmg and cc become a better spammable than force pulse then yeah it needed nerfing.
Zos had already said they didn't want cc's tied to dmg spam skills. This was a low cost, ranged, cc, dmg and dot skill in one.
And now they nerfed the range, the damage and the cc. The 2 classes that used it the most did so because their class options are lacklustre.
They should keep the range and damage nerf, and then also improve the class stuns of Warden and Necro.
But also instead of over doing it on the skill maybe they should have looked at the weapon that make it so good.PS NA
Have played all classes.
Warden Main0 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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If you want the PTS versions of the two skills changed to be more similar to one another - fine, but you should keep in mind that it could mean a large cost increase for Flame Clench. Going by Fextralife's numbers, which I believe are updated for PTS, the base cost on Draining Shot is 1,080 higher than Destructive Clench, and stamina abilities are ordinarily 15% cheaper than their magicka counterparts.
That's not a good comparison, since Draining Shot isn't being used to replace Snipe as the primary single target damaging ability.
Mhm that's why draining shot has better range and heal attached? ZOS and THEIR vision of "balance". Clearly magicka classes are OP LOLWeapons obtained through non-trivial PvE content should never be top dog in PvP, nor should a spammable damage ability have a CC attached to it. Especially when that spammable is instant cast, long range, and has a decent projectile speed. I fully support the change to Destructive Clench/Reach, though some classes certainly need better access to CC abilities now.:D
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That's a simple comparison of skills, clench and draining shot. Why first one have been nerfed into uselessness while draining shot has not only greater range, but also better cc and provides heal on hit? Why magicka classes get their nonclass cc nerfed while stamina recieves best cc in the game (turn evil)? So it's ok to give skill like that to stamina but nerf Psijic order bubble into the ground by skyrocketing the cost?
Anyway, my previous post was referring to how things are on the live server, and why they're being changed for the upcoming patch. Draining Shot isn't used as a spammable-that-also-has-a-CC-attached, and Destructive Clench/Reach are. That's at least part of the reason that one skill is being changed far more than the other is.0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stop balancing the game around the gear - you do it the other way around, Zenimax.- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore2 -
soynegroyque✭✭✭Ectheliontnacil wrote: »Taking a quick look at this I really don't understand this change.
The ability was not overpowered by any stretch of the imagination, right?
Like a 3k cost and low damage plus a simple stun. Only with the master staves it became a decent spammable, which seems reasonable since you give up two slots.
And it's not like it's overpowered compared to other spammables that are buffed by skill altering weapons. Force pulse gives you permanent status effect uptime with the vAS staff (that's 3 dots and 15% dmg reduction to the enemy and 8% dmg increase to you).
Carve just does insane dmg to zergs ontop of being a good spammable with extra functionality with the master 2h.
And the point is it gave magicka classes without a viable stun a unique spammable. And as far is I know those builds weren't brokenly op. Or at least not because of flame reach.
Chilled and Concussion are not dots
Only Burning is2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This effectively makes the spell a 28m range DOT, with the total damage being in line with other single target DOTs.
Actually that´s not the case.
It does less damage than entropy and the same as soultrap but is dodgeable due to being an initial hit dot (and soultrap is also either aoe or has massive resource return on kill - aka added functionality) - both don´t require a specific weapon.
It does also less dmg than virtually any class dot.
It has less functionality than comparable weapon dots: Poison injection would be a comparable ranged dot and is ahead in basically every regard.
Rending slashes is the same.
Then both Bow and DW have masterweapons of which the functionality that aligns with the skill design as a dot.
Masterstaff just got massively weaker due to the initial hit nerf + base cost reduction of the skill and spamming being actually harmful for the ability now.
Destructive Reach is an underperforming ability morph in every way you can compare it to other abilities on pts.Edited by Derra on July 26, 2019 7:15PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭it just not right to have a high damage spamable + stun + dot with 41m range in live (it is not 41).
get ur f-in mind, is it a utility, a dot or spamable.
also dont compare this with bow stun, it cost higer, lower damage (better to use inject if you want spamable anyway)Edited by evoniee on July 27, 2019 7:42AM0
