Finedaible wrote: »

As far as I've seen, they don't really care about Class Reps' opinions either. The only thing ZoS cares about now is the cash shop (crown store) and what amazing cosmetics they can add to Gamble crates.

Now that again seems like a vast overstatement.


Zenimax Media Inc. is a business just as any other. They have managers running it, people making budgeting plans, deciding on the size of teams and taking decisions on the game development for the lower division levels etc.

The monetary stuff is all decided on a higher level. The people we usually blame for things are not the ones that usually make the important decisions on stuff you just mentioned. The teams we get to interact with are quite small, and have to allocate their working time on a tight schedule. So if you feel like they lack communication, then it's because their community management team is small, and members of other teams (combat, dungeons and trials, coding) have opportunity costs. If they spend time on the forums, they lose time on testing/meeting others to discuss potential changes and so on. When in doubt, what would you do? Focus your small team to read forums more, or make it focus on future updates?

I personally don't really care if the class rep exists or not. From my outsider perspective it just appears to be a private little clique of people in their own bubble suggesting changes that only they want. With hardly a care about how it effects people like me. And with a very stubborn Zos who just trots out the existence of the class rep program for PR reasons.

I have been playing this game since beta, with a non stop subscription, but since the start of this year (and the implementation of the race changes) my cynicism for this game has grown ten fold and growing still.

This game is NOT getting better. It just seems the changes are getting more and more about particular favorite developer play styles while the general population, left in Zos's developer silence, are getting the clear message that they are not to be listened to nor welcome in the game any longer. And to me, with the fragrant disregard for the lore which held the ES games together for so many years, this no longer even feels like an ES game to me. It's just some weird fan-fiction knock off.

The only reason I have not left for good is that the people I know in the guilds I am in WANT me to stay. Basically the friends I have made are the reason I am still here.
However this is going to be changing with the implementation of the next update. My casual vet trial group is officially breaking up when the changes hit, as we don't see how we can do the trials we currently do any longer. Until then we are frantically doing as many as we can, kind of like spending as much time as we can in a favorite bar that will be closing for good. And then half the people I talk to every week will be moving on.

(But, but, we peons just don't understand! The developers have a vision! A secret one! At the end of this, in a years time we will love it! Just wait! Trust in Zos! We are just not worthy to know it! [Apparently.])

So whatever, class rep system or no, horrible changes still go through and even thought there are many posts pointing out WHY a particular change is bad they are all ignored. So what do I care if it exists or not? Whatever function it serves is not about players like me, so why should I care about it?

darkblue5 wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

I personally don't really care if the class rep exists or not. From my outsider perspective it just appears to be a private little clique of people in their own bubble suggesting changes that only they want. With hardly a care about how it effects people like me. And with a very stubborn Zos who just trots out the existence of the class rep program for PR reasons.

I have been playing this game since beta, with a non stop subscription, but since the start of this year (and the implementation of the race changes) my cynicism for this game has grown ten fold and growing still.

This game is NOT getting better. It just seems the changes are getting more and more about particular favorite developer play styles while the general population, left in Zos's developer silence, are getting the clear message that they are not to be listened to nor welcome in the game any longer. And to me, with the fragrant disregard for the lore which held the ES games together for so many years, this no longer even feels like an ES game to me. It's just some weird fan-fiction knock off.

The only reason I have not left for good is that the people I know in the guilds I am in WANT me to stay. Basically the friends I have made are the reason I am still here.
However this is going to be changing with the implementation of the next update. My casual vet trial group is officially breaking up when the changes hit, as we don't see how we can do the trials we currently do any longer. Until then we are frantically doing as many as we can, kind of like spending as much time as we can in a favorite bar that will be closing for good. And then half the people I talk to every week will be moving on.

(But, but, we peons just don't understand! The developers have a vision! A secret one! At the end of this, in a years time we will love it! Just wait! Trust in Zos! We are just not worthy to know it! [Apparently.])

So whatever, class rep system or no, horrible changes still go through and even thought there are many posts pointing out WHY a particular change is bad they are all ignored. So what do I care if it exists or not? Whatever function it serves is not about players like me, so why should I care about it?

Is it possible that the devs actually, genuinely, and sincerely listened to you and disagreed?

No one in the general community would know.

Grandma wrote: »

wasn't the class rep program disbanded...?

afaik, it was believed they were after some unfortunate NDA breaches - however as I recall Gina stated on the general board, that they were currently looking for replacements while their legal team had a nice chat with the guy who broke NDA. So it seems the disbanding of class reps was just a rumour.

Unless all the facts are all over the place and misinformation is everywhere. I really dont know these days like with many things ZoS isn't exactly clear. "communication" isn't something they'd do, you'd have more luck with a wall.

Masel wrote: »

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »
As far as I've seen, they don't really care about Class Reps' opinions either. The only thing ZoS cares about now is the cash shop (crown store) and what amazing cosmetics they can add to Gamble crates.


I dont think the previous post is an overstatement at all. They did say ZOS which seems to cover the whole organization.

I also think your explanation is no excuse either. it sounds like a justification for a company that is very out of touch with parts of their community and has a terribly poor communication record.

The fact that the company is doing pretty well financially and has such small teams in place is even more evidence that they are as you say a business. However.......

They are doing the bare minimum to appease the majority of eso players(those that have no need or issues with gameplay or balance) whilst those that require balance and a game that requires decent performance (pvp and end game pve) get very little.

So I think the previous poster has it covered it quite well

The industry they operate in is highly competitive, which is forcing any business operating in it to a scenario where we are right now. If the crown store yields a higher ROI than investing in a bigger combat team (which is understandable since balance only has an indirect effect on the money that's coming in), then any company would try to focus more on it. It's pure reason.

And since Zenimax Media Inc. is a private company, we have no financial data, and they are very careful not to release any. This again links to the competitive industry. The only data that used to be available was the share of profit they transferred to the German Media Company ProsiebenSat1Media, because they had to as the German Company held a share in Zenimax. Besides that, we can only look at debt issuance on EDGAR.

That's all we know financially. The increasing number of players doesnt say anything about profitability. In fact, Zenimax reported losses back then, until the share was sold by Prosieben in 2017 as far as I remember. So how do you know they are doing well?

What about decreasing numbers of players on console? As far as I know the crown store on all 3 platforms are the same. 2 more friends and big spenders put the game on pause for a couple of months (or until bugs in trials are fixed and PvE is ok). They will not spend on eso while away? Player retention on console looks really bad right now and losing big bucks as prices are the same

Masel wrote: »

Zedrian wrote: »

Masel wrote: »

GlorphNoldorin wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »
As far as I've seen, they don't really care about Class Reps' opinions either. The only thing ZoS cares about now is the cash shop (crown store) and what amazing cosmetics they can add to Gamble crates.


I dont think the previous post is an overstatement at all. They did say ZOS which seems to cover the whole organization.

I also think your explanation is no excuse either. it sounds like a justification for a company that is very out of touch with parts of their community and has a terribly poor communication record.

The fact that the company is doing pretty well financially and has such small teams in place is even more evidence that they are as you say a business. However.......

They are doing the bare minimum to appease the majority of eso players(those that have no need or issues with gameplay or balance) whilst those that require balance and a game that requires decent performance (pvp and end game pve) get very little.

So I think the previous poster has it covered it quite well

The industry they operate in is highly competitive, which is forcing any business operating in it to a scenario where we are right now. If the crown store yields a higher ROI than investing in a bigger combat team (which is understandable since balance only has an indirect effect on the money that's coming in), then any company would try to focus more on it. It's pure reason.

And since Zenimax Media Inc. is a private company, we have no financial data, and they are very careful not to release any. This again links to the competitive industry. The only data that used to be available was the share of profit they transferred to the German Media Company ProsiebenSat1Media, because they had to as the German Company held a share in Zenimax. Besides that, we can only look at debt issuance on EDGAR.

That's all we know financially. The increasing number of players doesnt say anything about profitability. In fact, Zenimax reported losses back then, until the share was sold by Prosieben in 2017 as far as I remember. So how do you know they are doing well?

What about decreasing numbers of players on console? As far as I know the crown store on all 3 platforms are the same. 2 more friends and big spenders put the game on pause for a couple of months (or until bugs in trials are fixed and PvE is ok). They will not spend on eso while away? Player retention on console looks really bad right now and losing big bucks as prices are the same

Is there a player retention though? I dont wanna be the tin foil hat guy here, but you mentioned hat friends of you left. Does that mean the overall playerbase decreased in that time? Not necessarily. We know completion rates of achievements, but that's about it. If there's a data source I dont know, excuse me, then id be interested in what you base your statement on.

Well being a Guild Master is a partial data, but still data, and I can tell that rosters are getting thin. I don’t have a guild with a 1000 players to be representative as a survey, but when 20+ players tell you the same thing “I’m gonna put the game on pause - the bugs are killing it for me☠️” then it’s no longer an isolated case and I can imagine other Raid Guild Masters are experiencing the same. To make things worse as a GM you funnel a lot of the frustration from guild mates and it’s always the same messages (bugs, anxiety that healers will be useless, lags, crashes during execute phase, etc...). Maybe they should do a Guild Master Feedback Community to get a sense of what is going on IG?

Another indicator are pvp queues, and there are barely any queues now on the main CP campaign (PS4 EU) at peak hours during weekends when compared to when the PvP lock was established.

Another indicator is being a frequent visitor of major city hubs and not only there seems to be fewer people but also a lot less LFG messages when compared to previous patches or Elsweyr launch.

Another indicator is affluence in Elsweyr has sharply decreased, where during the week you have a lot less players killing dragons (I have been farming lots of dragons since release) -

Zones like Greenshade and so on aren’t filled either, with a few low levels doing quests or Dro Mathra Destroyers fishing - even in empty zones you will get a loading screen if your mount is too fast 😂👍

I play very regularly, almost every day during peak hours and late at night- but i can guess from reactions, answers may argue individual impressions are not tangible information and should be avoided...

I’m biased and speaking from my own perspective from PS4 EU- not sure how it is right now on PC EU, but I do have an inactive account there

Masel wrote: »

Finedaible wrote: »

As far as I've seen, they don't really care about Class Reps' opinions either. The only thing ZoS cares about now is the cash shop (crown store) and what amazing cosmetics they can add to Gamble crates.

Now that again seems like a vast overstatement.


Zenimax Media Inc. is a business just as any other. They have managers running it, people making budgeting plans, deciding on the size of teams and taking decisions on the game development for the lower division levels etc.

The monetary stuff is all decided on a higher level. The people we usually blame for things are not the ones that usually make the important decisions on stuff you just mentioned. The teams we get to interact with are quite small, and have to allocate their working time on a tight schedule. So if you feel like they lack communication, then it's because their community management team is small, and members of other teams (combat, dungeons and trials, coding) have opportunity costs. If they spend time on the forums, they lose time on testing/meeting others to discuss potential changes and so on. When in doubt, what would you do? Focus your small team to read forums more, or make it focus on future updates?

No offense, but just because Zenimax is a business, doesn't mean it isn't an inept one or out-of-touch with its consumer-base. From the way you describe it, sounds to me that the higher-ups and the marketing department - as it were - make all the decisions in the end. We, the consumer, only have communication with combat and feedback teams here on the forums. So, our feedback likely does fall on deaf ears because the only people who can change the game for the better are hiding behind this redundant feedback loop.

Don't you find it even a little bit suspicious the company is suddenly super interested in adding progression skill-line unlocks to the cash shop while buffing those same skills and nerfing class skills? What about them placing an arguably better re-skin of the Sunspire Ice-fire Senche - the first and only Trial achievement mount - into the gamble-gem store? What What could possibly be the point of that I wonder... I'm calling it now, when they add Psijic Order, Vamp, and WW skill-line unlocks, those skills are going to receive buffs, and they will likely find a way to make it harder for players to share free bites while they're at it. WW only got somewhat nerfed now so that it wouldn't be broken when they "audit" it again later.

edit: typo fix