So, let's talk loot boxes !

vivisectvib16_ESO · July 2019

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

Hippie4927 · July 2019

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

Itacira · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

There are almost no more AAA games without microtransactions please for the love of Mara just watch the videos and listen to them so we don't waste this much time arguing in circles

There's a difference between blaming others, and saying "hey this is exploitative" which reminds me : hey this is REALLY exploitative !

Merlight · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

That's almost like telling an ex-addict "don't do cycling, there're drugs in it". Instead of acknowledging there's a problem with drug abuse in cycling.

Hippie4927 · July 2019

Itacira wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

There are almost no more AAA games without microtransactions please for the love of Mara just watch the videos and listen to them so we don't waste this much time arguing in circles

There's a difference between blaming others and saying "hey this is exploitative" and hey, this is REALLY exploitative !

Since you and others seem to have a hot nut for the gaming companies and their practices, get behind your principles and stop buying the games. Hit them where it hurts.........in their bottom line. But leave addicts out of your argument because no one is responsible for an addicts behavior except the addict. We don't get rid of alcohol because some people are alcoholics and we don't outlaw football, baseball, etc. because some gambling addicts bet on the games.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

There are almost no more AAA games without microtransactions please for the love of Mara just watch the videos and listen to them so we don't waste this much time arguing in circles

There's a difference between blaming others and saying "hey this is exploitative" and hey, this is REALLY exploitative !

Since you and others seem to have a hot nut for the gaming companies and their practices, get behind your principles and stop buying the games. Hit them where it hurts.........in their bottom line. But leave addicts out of your argument because no one is responsible for an addicts behavior except the addict. We don't get rid of alcohol because some people are alcoholics and we don't outlaw football, baseball, etc. because some gambling addicts bet on the games.

Don’t forget the blind boxes/bags, and collectible cards cause people like those too

Itacira · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Since you and others seem to have a hot nut for the gaming companies and their practices, get behind your principles and stop buying the games. Hit them where it hurts.........in their bottom line.

Or I could denounce the degradation of the video game industry and entertainment, an entertainment that I have grown with and have been practicing for, hm, 20 years now, one that offers incredible story-telling perspectives and lessons in empathy and otherness, as well as being a way of living adventures vicariously, and that is being plagued more and more by sales techniques that take out all meaning and ethics out of it. I like video games too much to stand by silent.

Hippie4927 wrote: »

But leave addicts out of your argument because no one is responsible for an addicts behavior except the addict. We don't get rid of alcohol because some people are alcoholics and we don't outlaw football, baseball, etc. because some gambling addicts bet on the games.

Funny you should say that, because we DO REGULATE gambling and drugs (be them legal or illegal) and alcohol too, among others. So, like, I don't think this is the winning argument you thought it was. Like, at all.

Also, on a wider scale than TESO (though I'm sure some underage kids have been caught in this kinda spiral on TESO too), children being manipulated by this kind of BS on games that are ACTUALLY rated for 3 years old ARE. NOT. ADDICTS. The thing that the videos above fail to insist upon clearly, though they touch upon it, is that these psychological marketing manipulations do not only work on people with addiction. Those are the worse off, definitely, but the magic of these techniques is that they have the potential to apply to anybody. FOMO, artificial scarcity, peer pressure : anybody is susceptible to these pressures. Which the VIDEOS SHARED ON THIS THREAD EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHY DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS AS IF IT WAS NEW INFORMATION

Hippie4927 · July 2019

Itacira wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Since you and others seem to have a hot nut for the gaming companies and their practices, get behind your principles and stop buying the games. Hit them where it hurts.........in their bottom line.

Or I could denounce the degradation of the video game industry and entertainment, an entertainment that I have grown with and have been practicing for, hm, 20 years now, one that offers incredible story-telling perspectives and lessons in empathy and otherness, as well as being a way of living adventures vicariously, and that is being plagued more and more by sales techniques that take out all meaning and ethics out of it. I like video games too much to stand by silent.

Hippie4927 wrote: »

But leave addicts out of your argument because no one is responsible for an addicts behavior except the addict. We don't get rid of alcohol because some people are alcoholics and we don't outlaw football, baseball, etc. because some gambling addicts bet on the games.

Funny you should say that, because we DO REGULATE gambling and drugs (be them legal or illegal) and alcohol too, among others. So, like, I don't think this is the winning argument you thought it was. Like, at all.

Also, on a wider scale than TESO (though I'm sure some underage kids have been caught in this kinda spiral on TESO too), children being manipulated by this kind of BS on games that are ACTUALLY rated for 3 years old ARE. NOT. ADDICTS. The thing that the videos above fail to insist upon clearly, though they touch upon it, is that these psychological marketing manipulations do not only work on people with addiction. Those are the worse off, definitely, but the magic of these techniques is that they have the potential to apply to anybody. FOMO, artificial scarcity, peer pressure : anybody is susceptible to these pressures. Which the VIDEOS SHARED ON THIS THREAD EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHY DO I NEED TO REPEAT THIS AS IF IT WAS NEW INFORMATION

You have a low tolerance for anyone who disagrees with you and just so you know........I DID watch the video and I was not shocked or disturbed! These practices have been around for, at least, 30 years (probably longer) and I don't hold gaming companies to a different standard than I hold other companies to.

And since you are not willing to stand behind your principles because you might have to giveup something that you enjoy, I cannot take you seriously.

Peace out!

Itacira · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

You have a low tolerance for anyone who disagrees with you and just so you know........I DID watch the video and I was not shocked or disturbed! These practices have been around for, at least, 30 years (probably longer) and I don't hold gaming companies to a different standard than I hold other companies to.

And since you are not willing to stand behind your principles because you might have to giveup something that you enjoy, I cannot take you seriously.

Peace out!

The "don't like, then leave" mentality is one that has never made things change. If I stopped playing and kept denouncing these practices (which are just as condemnable in other industries even though, no, unlike what you imply, they're not exactly the same), I'd be told to shut up because I'd no longer be a gamer. But if I keep playing I'm told to shut up because, idk, principles or something, which makes no sense.

Maybe it's not about me standing by my principles or not but merely about wanting to silence me, hm ? Uncomfortable truths and all that.

Also, I have a low tolerance for people who ignore information that is given to them, forcing me to repeat it ad nauseam and, yes, I have a VERY. VERY LOW tolerance, for self-centered people who are unable to think about making things better for others.

But sure, do peace out. Have a nice evening even.

Starlock · July 2019

Came across this interesting article that relates to the topic of the OP: https://www.gamecrate.com/10-guidelines-creating-ethical-microtransactions/17547

To put things in perspective, microtransactions are probably not going to go away any time soon. But what CAN be done is keep microtransactions ethical instead of predatory. Using the above guidelines, we can score Zenimax on these guidelines if we'd like. Might do that in a bit later.

Lostar · July 2019

Thank you for sharing Itacira! This conversation needs to continue despite "useful idiots" who are so deep into the hive mentality that they defend these practices.

Merlight · July 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Came across this interesting article that relates to the topic of the OP: https://www.gamecrate.com/10-guidelines-creating-ethical-microtransactions/17547

The problem is not microtransactions themselves, but rather developers who use microtransactions in a predatory way. That’s not to say they are doing it on purpose. It’s pretty easy to accidentally design an unethical microtransaction model, because the model hasn’t been around very long.

MrGhosty · July 2019

I don't like loot boxes, but I don't really mind microtransactions just as I didn't really mind DLC back when horse armor dropped.

I'm an empathetic person, but I gotta say that it's not a business' job to be empathetic. They provide a service and we tell them with our dollars what service we wish for them to provide. When ESO didn't provide the value for its cost, I left, for five years.There were still aspects I enjoyed about the game, but the overall value wasn't there. They upped their game, provided more content and now I am back and enjoying myself.

I wish they provided direct purchase options for everything they sold us, so that way if you just enjoy loot boxes you can do your thing but if you're just trying to get one particular skin you can go that route. Lootboxes can be super predatory, just as they can be benign. Eso lootboxes are annoying, but I wouldn't call them predatory. I would also point out that games in general have long been designed to mess with our monkey brains. They even tweak the difficulty curves to give us our sense of accomplishment. I don't bring that up to declare your protest invalid, just to illustrate that this system you love so much has always been manipulative and when lootboxes have run their course, there will be something else to entice us to buy and play it as much as possible.

Lootboxes, for now, are the system we're working with. Rather than simply declare them awful and shout about it, find solutions to make the system better and present those. We also need to get back to a place where folks were accountable for their own actions. Holding the individual responsible doesn't mean we lack empathy, it just means we know where the buck stops.

Reistr_the_Unbroken · July 2019

Just going to say I don’t give a damn about a random strangers kid if y’all are so concerned about that lmao.
Oh and btw if you try the “B-but what if your family me-" stop right there, cause I know my own family damn well enough more than a random stranger on the internet, and none play anything like this I can tell you that right now.

Itacira · July 2019

MrGhosty wrote: »

I don't like loot boxes, but I don't really mind microtransactions just as I didn't really mind DLC back when horse armor dropped.

I'm an empathetic person, but I gotta say that it's not a business' job to be empathetic. They provide a service and we tell them with our dollars what service we wish for them to provide. When ESO didn't provide the value for its cost, I left, for five years.There were still aspects I enjoyed about the game, but the overall value wasn't there. They upped their game, provided more content and now I am back and enjoying myself.

I wish they provided direct purchase options for everything they sold us, so that way if you just enjoy loot boxes you can do your thing but if you're just trying to get one particular skin you can go that route. Lootboxes can be super predatory, just as they can be benign. Eso lootboxes are annoying, but I wouldn't call them predatory. I would also point out that games in general have long been designed to mess with our monkey brains. They even tweak the difficulty curves to give us our sense of accomplishment. I don't bring that up to declare your protest invalid, just to illustrate that this system you love so much has always been manipulative and when lootboxes have run their course, there will be something else to entice us to buy and play it as much as possible.

Lootboxes, for now, are the system we're working with. Rather than simply declare them awful and shout about it, find solutions to make the system better and present those. We also need to get back to a place where folks were accountable for their own actions. Holding the individual responsible doesn't mean we lack empathy, it just means we know where the buck stops.

It's not the players' job to find this kind of solutions though ? That'd be like asking us to fix the coding when we report bugs. We don't know the inner workings, but we definitely can raise the alarm when things go to ***.

Also, how many times is it gonna have to be repeated in this thread that the reason it's not simply about individual responsibility is because this system plays on natural instincts and makes use of psychological manipulation ?!

Yes games use psychological techniques to be enjoyable, the same way a book or a movie does, but there's a difference between working on the gameplay, which is expected, and like, a game's JOB, and milking money out of customers.

''Speaking with one's money'' is a myth. Most people don't have nearly enough money for their ''money voice'' to be heard by multi million companies. But it's very practical for the later who then don't have to face criticism since the unsatisfied customers are supposed to be silent and leave in this system, leeving only an echo chamber of peer pressured satisfaction behind.

Actually, I read in a similar thread someone point out that this come-and-go model ESO has may be the whole point, and I believe it may be worth thinking about. People buy the game (this original investment meaning that people already feel well, INVESTED, and also first payment to the company). Eventually, some have enough of the game's issues and, after paying some months of ESO+, leave. When an extension drops or they get bored, they come back, pay some more. Some go, some, leave. It's a constant player turnover, meaning the servers are also never as saturated as they could (should ?) be. And yet money keeps flowing.

Finally, if I must really find a ''solution'', I might start saying that games used to be perfectly financially viable before DLC, loot boxes and micro transactions and that the insane amount of money pouring into games through micro transactions clearly isn't being invested back into games if the amount of crunch periods in the industry and the overall patch culture (put out a bugged game and ''fix'' it later) is to be believe.

Starlock · July 2019

Where Elder Scrolls Online Succeeds and Fails at Practicing Ethical Microstransactions

Based on this guide here, how does this game rank overall in making its microtransactions ethical? Clearly, ESO is not the worst offender but it is also leaving much to be desired and continues to slide down the slope of predatory marketing. Let's take a look:

Rule #1 - Never lock portions of the main game behind a paywall
Elder Scrolls Online is not guilty of this, currently. While a cynic could argue that Chapter expansions and DLC meet these criteria, that's a bit of a stretch. At no point in playing the main quest of the base game, for example, does the game slap a wall in your face that reads "want to continue the story? Click here to continue for 1000 crowns!" Thank gods for that, because many of us never would have given this game a chance if it did this. Which, incidentally, is probably why it doesn't exist in the game. The developers knew better than to try that card.

Rule #2 - Never let someone pay for power in a multiplayer game.
This is specifically intended to apply to competitive multiplayer, which in our context applies to both PvP and competitive PvE leaderboards. The article states "two players of equal skill who put in equal time should be roughly equal in a competitive match." Some breach of this has existed in Elder Scrolls Online for quite some time in the form of riding lessons, for instance. The situation has grown much more dire, however, with the introduction of skill points for cash and even skill lines for cash. This is a clear and flagrant violation of Rule #2 for ensuring your game is ethical with its microtransactions. There's no two ways about it - adding the ability to purchase skill lines is letting someone pay for power, full stop.

Rule #3 - Do not balance your game around DLC or microtransactions.
Honestly? I'm going to defer to players who care about power gaming on this one as I'm not in a place to assess this. Personally, I don't feel that Elder Scrolls Online is guilty of this, but I'm open to arguments to the contrary from those more adept in number crunching than myself.

Rule #4 - Make sure it is reasonable to beat and complete your game without spending money.
On the face of it, Elder Scrolls Online certainly meets this standard. You can play and enjoy the game without spending anything beyond the price of admissions. That said, I think we can all agree that there are gameplay elements that heavily and deliberately incentivize "pay-to-win" or "pay-for-convenience," neither of which is particularly ethical. Grind exists in games like this for one reason - to keep you playing. And if a company can sucker you into paying them money to avoid a badly designed game mechanic like grinding, they win and we loose. I expect we will be seeing more of this, in our beloved ESO, unfortunately, rather than less of it.

Rule #5 -When at all possible, make microtransactions non-random
Once upon a time, cosmetics purchases on the crown store were 100% non-random. Then we got gamble boxes, which slid Elder Scrolls Online further down the slope of unethical microtransactions and predatory marketing. Unlike other predatory microtransaction techniques, this one has gotten international attention and nations worldwide are actively aiming to address the problem. Time will tell how that plays out, but hopefully consumer protections win out and we see either a demise of gamble boxes or at the very least see them regulated in exactly the same way gambling is regulated.

Rule #6 - Manage an ethical store that guards against predatory practices
This is about giving users every chance to say "no" to a superfluous purchase by making you second guess "do I really need this?" Currently, this is absent in Elder Scrolls Online but would be easy to implement and a great step forward. Say a player opens the store to purchase a motif. Information could display informing the player that these motifs can be obtained in-game from completing content or perusing guild traders. When buying skill lines comes out, it could come with easy access to a quest starter for that skill line to encourage players NOT to make this unnecessary purchase.

Rule #7 - Anything that can be purchased should be able to be earned
This is currently the case for most, but not all, items on the crown store. Most cosmetics - which are very important to many players - have no in-game method to earn them. There are a couple easy things Elder Scrolls Online could do to be more ethical in this regard. One, it can introduce a formal gold-to-crowns exchange within the game itself. There are other MMOs that do this and it would eliminate the guesswork of such exchanges as well as provide an extra layer of security for parties involved. Two, it can introduce a means of actually earning crowns in-game. This would be a huge, huge step forward and eliminate a lot of the anger I have at marketing right now by putting skill lines in the cash shop.

Rule #8 - Don't create arbitrary roadblocks that can only be removed by microtransactions
This is absent in Elder Scrolls Online and I doubt if we'll see it anytime soon for the same reason why we don't see a breach of Rule #1 above.

Rule #9 - Offer bundles and give away stuff for free
Elder Scrolls Online practices this here and there, which is a good thing. I think things could go even further with this as outlined in Rule #7, but the team has done a fair job cultivating goodwill on this front so far.

Rule #10 - Make your extra content weird
Personally, I don't think this rule makes sense in the context of Elder Scrolls Online, which is supposed to be a fairly immersive RPG. Frankly, we don't want to see people riding around on mounts that are wildly out of place lore-wise. I say we can safely eliminate this rule from consideration.

Three easy ways to make microstransactions more ethical in ESO
While many of us would like to see certain types of microtransactions in this game simply die in fire, this wish probably isn't realistic. There are, however, new systems the developers could introduce to make the microtransactions in this game significantly more ethical.

Introduce guards against predatory practices. As mentioned above, if you must introduce skill line purchases, include quest starter prompts with it. Similar mechanisms can be added for other crown store purchases.
Develop a gold-to-crowns exchange market. It's about time this process be formalized to eliminate guesswork and make it easier for players to convert their in-game gold to crowns. This will open up access to crown store offerings that currently have no way to be earned in-game significantly.
Create ways to earn crowns in-game. The ability to earn crowns in-game for activities will solve the problem of inaccessibility of crown store offerings. It will make the flagrant pay-to-win/pay-for-convenience skill lines look significantly less onerous to those of us fuming about it too.

Itacira · July 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Where Elder Scrolls Online Succeeds and Fails at Practicing Ethical Microstransactions

Based on this guide here, how does this game rank overall in making its microtransactions ethical? Clearly, ESO is not the worst offender but it is also leaving much to be desired and continues to slide down the slope of predatory marketing. Let's take a look:

Rule #1 - Never lock portions of the main game behind a paywall
Elder Scrolls Online is not guilty of this, currently. While a cynic could argue that Chapter expansions and DLC meet these criteria, that's a bit of a stretch. At no point in playing the main quest of the base game, for example, does the game slap a wall in your face that reads "want to continue the story? Click here to continue for 1000 crowns!" Thank gods for that, because many of us never would have given this game a chance if it did this. Which, incidentally, is probably why it doesn't exist in the game. The developers knew better than to try that card.

Rule #2 - Never let someone pay for power in a multiplayer game.
This is specifically intended to apply to competitive multiplayer, which in our context applies to both PvP and competitive PvE leaderboards. The article states "two players of equal skill who put in equal time should be roughly equal in a competitive match." Some breach of this has existed in Elder Scrolls Online for quite some time in the form of riding lessons, for instance. The situation has grown much more dire, however, with the introduction of skill points for cash and even skill lines for cash. This is a clear and flagrant violation of Rule #2 for ensuring your game is ethical with its microtransactions. There's no two ways about it - adding the ability to purchase skill lines is letting someone pay for power, full stop.

Rule #3 - Do not balance your game around DLC or microtransactions.
Honestly? I'm going to defer to players who care about power gaming on this one as I'm not in a place to assess this. Personally, I don't feel that Elder Scrolls Online is guilty of this, but I'm open to arguments to the contrary from those more adept in number crunching than myself.

Rule #4 - Make sure it is reasonable to beat and complete your game without spending money.
On the face of it, Elder Scrolls Online certainly meets this standard. You can play and enjoy the game without spending anything beyond the price of admissions. That said, I think we can all agree that there are gameplay elements that heavily and deliberately incentivize "pay-to-win" or "pay-for-convenience," neither of which is particularly ethical. Grind exists in games like this for one reason - to keep you playing. And if a company can sucker you into paying them money to avoid a badly designed game mechanic like grinding, they win and we loose. I expect we will be seeing more of this, in our beloved ESO, unfortunately, rather than less of it.

Rule #5 -When at all possible, make microtransactions non-random
Once upon a time, cosmetics purchases on the crown store were 100% non-random. Then we got gamble boxes, which slid Elder Scrolls Online further down the slope of unethical microtransactions and predatory marketing. Unlike other predatory microtransaction techniques, this one has gotten international attention and nations worldwide are actively aiming to address the problem. Time will tell how that plays out, but hopefully consumer protections win out and we see either a demise of gamble boxes or at the very least see them regulated in exactly the same way gambling is regulated.

Rule #6 - Manage an ethical store that guards against predatory practices
This is about giving users every chance to say "no" to a superfluous purchase by making you second guess "do I really need this?" Currently, this is absent in Elder Scrolls Online but would be easy to implement and a great step forward. Say a player opens the store to purchase a motif. Information could display informing the player that these motifs can be obtained in-game from completing content or perusing guild traders. When buying skill lines comes out, it could come with easy access to a quest starter for that skill line to encourage players NOT to make this unnecessary purchase.

Rule #7 - Anything that can be purchased should be able to be earned
This is currently the case for most, but not all, items on the crown store. Most cosmetics - which are very important to many players - have no in-game method to earn them. There are a couple easy things Elder Scrolls Online could do to be more ethical in this regard. One, it can introduce a formal gold-to-crowns exchange within the game itself. There are other MMOs that do this and it would eliminate the guesswork of such exchanges as well as provide an extra layer of security for parties involved. Two, it can introduce a means of actually earning crowns in-game. This would be a huge, huge step forward and eliminate a lot of the anger I have at marketing right now by putting skill lines in the cash shop.

Rule #8 - Don't create arbitrary roadblocks that can only be removed by microtransactions
This is absent in Elder Scrolls Online and I doubt if we'll see it anytime soon for the same reason why we don't see a breach of Rule #1 above.

Rule #9 - Offer bundles and give away stuff for free
Elder Scrolls Online practices this here and there, which is a good thing. I think things could go even further with this as outlined in Rule #7, but the team has done a fair job cultivating goodwill on this front so far.

Rule #10 - Make your extra content weird
Personally, I don't think this rule makes sense in the context of Elder Scrolls Online, which is supposed to be a fairly immersive RPG. Frankly, we don't want to see people riding around on mounts that are wildly out of place lore-wise. I say we can safely eliminate this rule from consideration.

Three easy ways to make microstransactions more ethical in ESO
While many of us would like to see certain types of microtransactions in this game simply die in fire, this wish probably isn't realistic. There are, however, new systems the developers could introduce to make the microtransactions in this game significantly more ethical.
Introduce guards against predatory practices. As mentioned above, if you must introduce skill line purchases, include quest starter prompts with it. Similar mechanisms can be added for other crown store purchases.

Develop a gold-to-crowns exchange market. It's about time this process be formalized to eliminate guesswork and make it easier for players to convert their in-game gold to crowns. This will open up access to crown store offerings that currently have no way to be earned in-game significantly.

Create ways to earn crowns in-game. The ability to earn crowns in-game for activities will solve the problem of inaccessibility of crown store offerings. It will make the flagrant pay-to-win/pay-for-convenience skill lines look significantly less onerous to those of us fuming about it too.

Thank you for the work you put in this, really.

I'd like to comment on a couple of things I thought while reading.

Rule #3 : I wonder if the fact that two classes and quite a few skilllines are locked behind the paywall wouldn't apply to it.

Rule #4 : Agree that the game can perfectly be finished without paying (the main quest, this kind of stuff) but have to admit that even though some people manage perfectly well without it, getting ESO+ for the additional storage space and craft bag does change one's experience quite a lot. Let me rephrase : it changes my experience quite a hell of a lot.

Rule #6 : If they implemented this kind of clarity, it'd be fantastic ! Sadly, they still sell werewolf/vampire disease healing, and after years they have yet to specify that outfit pages only apply to one (1) character and not the whole account, so I'm not very hopeful. That being said, safeguards and proper communication would be a great thing to put into place !

Rule #9 : Giving away free stuff is a way of hooking people, though. Giving them a little taste and telling tem how much better it'd be if they paid. Worse, they give with one hand and take with the other : see the fact that free ESO+ weeks used to earn ESO+ users free crates. Also, daily rewards used to be a lot more generous in the crates.I mean, I'm glad for what few free crates I've been able to get because of that, but I'm very torn about how thankful we should be for it.

JamilaRaj · July 2019

Starlock wrote: »

Came across this interesting article that relates to the topic of the OP: https://www.gamecrate.com/10-guidelines-creating-ethical-microtransactions/17547

To put things in perspective, microtransactions are probably not going to go away any time soon. But what CAN be done is keep microtransactions ethical instead of predatory. Using the above guidelines, we can score Zenimax on these guidelines if we'd like. Might do that in a bit later.

"Ethical" microtransactions are either ineffectual, or veiled well enough that players do not notice or at least can pretend they did not notice.
Data from study on lootboxes (discussion suppressed) not only corroborate the thesis, i.e. that lootboxes cause problem gamblers and only problem gamblers (players scoring high on PGSI), who are relatively few, to spend more, but perhaps more interestingly also that most money come from these players anyway even when lootboxes are not there.
Is that because it is pretty easy to accidentally design an unethical microtransaction model, because the model hasn’t been around very long? Hahaha. No. It is because both microtransactions generally and lootboxes particularly are fundamentally tools that enable videogambling companies to prey upon gullible players, which, in turn, is because preying upon them is so profitable. Again, according to the study (data; conlusion is mine), removal of lootboxes means revenue shrinking to 70%, implementing RMTs so that problem gamblers spend about the same as other players means revenue shrinking further to 35-45% of initial volume.
In other words, this is like asking for knives to be made less dangerously sharp.

EDIT: if I heard correctly, this guy also estimates removal of lootboxes would mean -30%. Btw, the video is from the same channel as Torulf Jernstrom's (he himself has multiple there) and, well, the channel is a cesspool of videogambling.

Coolits · July 2019

I stopped supporting ESO financially a long time ago when it was clear Zenimax were jumping on the band waggon with lootboxes.

Regardless of what they contain its disgusting to think companies knowingly hide behind the out of date legal definition of gambling and pray on their fans, its unethical and they should be ashamed.

Gone are the days when you bought a game on merit and didn’t have to perform a forensic investigation into monetization before you made your purchase.

Sevn · July 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

Well, if these forums are any indication the battle has largely been lost. A significant portion do not understand what is wrong with skill points and skill lines in the cash shop, for example. The conditioning has already happened. At this point, the law needs to catch up with the industry and regulate these practices.

Could it be some just disagree with you?

Isn't it crazy how folks consider others dumb if they disagree with their position?

I admire the desire to help addicts, truly, but this isn't about them. There are so many fights that need a champion and this is the venue? No, this is about the inability to direct buy cosmetics, using addicts as a means to an end.

The refusal to practice what is preached and completely boycotting these games says it all. Change takes sacrifice, what are you all willing to sacrifice for your cause, besides post long threads about it?

Starlock · July 2019

Itacira wrote: »

Rule #3 : I wonder if the fact that two classes and quite a few skilllines are locked behind the paywall wouldn't apply to it.

I'd generally err on the side of no, at least not in of itself. If it was, then basically any content expansion would be considered unethical, even something is innocuous as, say, the Dawnguard DLC in Skyrim or the Krieg vault hunter class in Borderlands. Boy, I miss when DLC were always just straightforward like that...

Itacira wrote: »

Rule #4 : Agree that the game can perfectly be finished without paying (the main quest, this kind of stuff) but have to admit that even though some people manage perfectly well without it, getting ESO+ for the additional storage space and craft bag does change one's experience quite a lot. Let me rephrase : it changes my experience quite a hell of a lot.

Yes, the craft bag brings up an interesting point. A decent case can be made for something like that being necessary if you want to make decent gold in this game or if you are into competitive aspects of the game. Could be done without it, but it would be harder. Inventory management design in this game is pretty terrible and didn't need to be done the way it was.

Itacira wrote: »

Rule #6 : If they implemented this kind of clarity, it'd be fantastic ! Sadly, they still sell werewolf/vampire disease healing, and after years they have yet to specify that outfit pages only apply to one (1) character and not the whole account, so I'm not very hopeful. That being said, safeguards and proper communication would be a great thing to put into place !

Yeah, the whole not specifying some of these upgrades apply to one character is straight up sleaze move. There's what... a 30+ page thread complaining about the cost of outfit slots and the lack of transparent communication that they are not account-wide? It's shocking to me that this hasn't been changed yet. It's blatantly false/misleading advertising, and I'm pretty sure there are laws against that.

Itacira wrote: »

Rule #9 : Giving away free stuff is a way of hooking people, though. Giving them a little taste and telling tem how much better it'd be if they paid. Worse, they give with one hand and take with the other : see the fact that free ESO+ weeks used to earn ESO+ users free crates. Also, daily rewards used to be a lot more generous in the crates.I mean, I'm glad for what few free crates I've been able to get because of that, but I'm very torn about how thankful we should be for it.

Unfortunately, I have to concede your point here. When Zenimax started doing the giveaways, especially framed as daily rewards, it definitely struck me as more manipulative psychology to addict people to the game. The nature of daily rewards primes the brain so we don't want to feel that we are "missing out" on something. It creates compulsive habit to log in daily. Daily quests do this to some extent as well, and events are the same sort of bait and hook. How much of this is nefarious marketing agendas versus an actual desire to be kind to the community is something we could probably argue about all day. At the end of the day, we just don't know as it can be seen as a combination of both.

DR4GONFL1 · July 2019

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

Good for you for being able to conquer addiction however suggesting all addiction is the same for everyone and you did it so everyone who can't is deciding just not to or are just weak is sad and disappointing.

Itacira · July 2019

Sevn wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Starlock wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

Well, if these forums are any indication the battle has largely been lost. A significant portion do not understand what is wrong with skill points and skill lines in the cash shop, for example. The conditioning has already happened. At this point, the law needs to catch up with the industry and regulate these practices.

Could it be some just disagree with you?

Isn't it crazy how folks consider others dumb if they disagree with their position?

I admire the desire to help addicts, truly, but this isn't about them. There are so many fights that need a champion and this is the venue? No, this is about the inability to direct buy cosmetics, using addicts as a means to an end.

The refusal to practice what is preached and completely boycotting these games says it all. Change takes sacrifice, what are you all willing to sacrifice for your cause, besides post long threads about it?

I'm pretty sure the uselessness and even relative danger of boycotts - since that'd leave behind only an echo chamber of people uninterested in denouncing the issue - and "damned if I do, damned if I don't" situation of being a gamer have been commented upon earlier on in the thread. I invite you to read those comments. Should you find them too long, I'm afraid there's nothing I can do for you other than invite you to ignore this thread whose length appears to upset you so much.

Hippie4927 · July 2019

DR4GONFL1 wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

vivisectvib16_ESO wrote: »

xMovingTarget wrote: »

If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.

Do you know how mental health issues (such as gambling addiction) work? You don't just "stop doing a thing" and then it's over...

As an x-drug addict, yes, you do just "stop doing a thing" and you make it "over" and an important factor in doing that is to stop blaming others for your addiction and put the blame where it belongs.......on yourself. If an addict truly wants to get better and they have a weakness to loot boxes, they need to stop playing games that have the boxes.......remove the temptation.

Good for you for being able to conquer addiction however suggesting all addiction is the same for everyone and you did it so everyone who can't is deciding just not to or are just weak is sad and disappointing.

Those are your words! At no time did I say that!