So, let's talk loot boxes !

Itacira

Found out this video earlier on. Pretty good one, if I may say, one that could actually open a discussion that isn't just worth having but absolutely necessary.

https://youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14&list=WL&index=28&t=0s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14&list=WL&index=28&t=0s"]https://youtube.com/watch?v=7S-DGTBZU14&list=WL&index=28&t=0s

For those wary of clicking the link : just google "The Addictive Cost Of Predatory Videogame Monetization"

EDIT: changed the title in an attempt at manipulating people into clicking, ooooooh

Hellmasker

Let me chime in and say.. Glad someone posted it here! Raising a bit of awareness is never a bad thing!

Let me also drop something else here... this is more about Mobile Games/F2P titles, but it's still scary in some ways...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4StALn7O_8k

Itacira

Hellmasker wrote: »

Let me chime in and say.. Glad someone posted it here! Raising a bit of awareness is never a bad thing!

Let me also drop something else here... this is more about Mobile Games/F2P titles, but it's still scary in some ways...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4StALn7O_8k

Thank you ! I'll look at it. It's time we held companies accountable and stopped pretending is just a matter of being "smart" and "not spending the money" and that "nobody forces anyone". And that no, it's not necessary to finance the game. This money definitely doesn't go to the developpers.

Thannazzar

Whether the revenue from Crown Crates or any other randomised element used to fund development of the game is irrelevent.

Crown Crates in eso are cosmetic and convenience based items. They do not provide BiS gear or any meaningful advantage over other players.

The same may not be true of other games but this is an eso forum.

Whilst personally I would prefer direct purchase mechanics over randomised reward content, this desire is born out of an economic principal rather than any dislike of randomised loot in principal.

Direct purchase items provide added incentive for artists and coders to produce a cosmetic item that is visually pleasing and desirable, the more desirable the item, the greater the implied value and the more revenue that can be gained. Supply and demand. This drives artists and coders to provide items that are desired, as the ones that are frankly badly designed lumps of guar dung will not sell.

I understand that some people have an addictive disorder. That addiction can be any dopamine producing effect, or sugar, tobacco, alcahol etc. Treatment is available.

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals. No one forces you to indulge, you choose to do so. Nor should those who are capable of restraining their desires to what is healthy or affordable be restricted in what they can purchase because a minority lack the control to restrict their own actions.

I realise that this viewpoint is likely unpopular. Particularly among the ever present and vocal identity politics sjw millenials. But its no less true.

There is a disturbing trend of trying to absolve individuals of any responsibility for their own actions and blame companies for offering a service which supplements, but is not necessary to enjoy their product.

Some pay to win games may exploit loot boxes as part of their business model. ESO is not among them.

Itacira

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

JamilaRaj

Just for completeness, the hilarious video he references.

I guess Torulf Jernstrom recieved as many job offers as death threats.

Hippie4927

Itacira wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

JamilaRaj

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

Sure it does. But there is not a whole lot of grocery stores touting "free groceries" or selling RNG grocery boxes that still have valid trade licence, is there?

Hippie4927

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

Sure it does. But there is not a whole lot of grocery stores touting "free groceries" or selling RNG grocery boxes that still have valid trade licence, is there?

My point is that all businesses do it and even gaming companies are businesses so they are not doing anything new. And, at times, grocery stores do use "free groceries" to attract customers. The store I worked in had a day that they offered a list of free items to the first 100 customers that day. Before opening time, people were lined up for blocks down the street.

Hellmasker

Just because businesses can exploit people, doesn't mean they should do that. But if we ask the likes of EA, the "Surprise Mechanics" are very ethical indeed...

And we all know... cosmetics in pretty much every mmo are the true endgame. They don't need to provide BiS items or other P2W elements to get people hooked.

Oh well, it is how it is, but sooner or later, the government probably intervenes. And I somehow doubt this will be for the better.

Itacira

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

The fact that it is done doesn't make it ok ?! What kind of nonsense argument is that ?

Anyway, I've been disturbed for a while now by that misuse of psychology and biology in grocery stores too : thank you for preying on our natural craving for sweets by selling it close to the checkout queue even though sugar is actually proving to be quite close to an addictive drug. Also another thing that the grocery store does is selling some bulk items at a higher cost than if you bought a smaller package : you think you're saving money because it makes sense, doesn't it, that the 2kg box would be cheaper ? But if you go and find the cost to weight ratio you realize that NOPE. They had you. Sure, it's done, sure, it's LEGAL, but it's manipulative and predatorious.

Also Ikea : Ikea stores are horrifying.

Fight the system !

JamilaRaj

Hippie4927 wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

Sure it does. But there is not a whole lot of grocery stores touting "free groceries" or selling RNG grocery boxes that still have valid trade licence, is there?

My point is that all businesses do it and even gaming companies are businesses so they are not doing anything new. And, at times, grocery stores do use "free groceries" to attract customers. The store I worked in had a day that they offered a list of free items to the first 100 customers that day. Before opening time, people were lined up for blocks down the street.

I get your point. My point is that insinuating videogambling companies playing tricks is normal, because groceries play tricks too, is, to borrow Sterling's lingo, bollocks, because precisely when compared with something from outside it becomes obvious just how extreme outliers videogambling companies are.

Reistr_the_Unbroken

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Hippie4927 wrote: »

Itacira wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

It is not the responsibility of a company to cater for the lack of self control of individuals.

It's is the company's responsibility to NOT prey upon addictive behavior, which they WILLFULLY DO. They do. They use psychology research for it.

Have you watched the video ? Pretty sure all of your arguments are counter argued in there.

Even the friggin' grocery store uses psychology research to get you to buy certain products over others. This is nothing new in business.

Sure it does. But there is not a whole lot of grocery stores touting "free groceries" or selling RNG grocery boxes that still have valid trade licence, is there?

There’s still the snackcrates being sold online though lmao

Starlock

I don't usually watch videos, but this is an issue that deeply concerns me so I gave it a gander. Everyone... EVERYONE who plays this game needs to watch this, because the marketing team behind ESO is 110% guilty of the predatory marketing scams talked about in this video. The creator gets a bit repetitive, but frankly, this stuff needs to be repeated over and over and over until it starts sinking in properly.

And I quote from the video - "If you need gambling mechanics to keep your games going, you shouldn't $#%^ing be in business."

Preach, brother. I hear Dragon Age 3 is going to be "games as service" which of course means "game as predatory marketing to hook players and make them addicts." So sad.

Itacira

Starlock wrote: »

I don't usually watch videos, but this is an issue that deeply concerns me so I gave it a gander. Everyone... EVERYONE who plays this game needs to watch this, because the marketing team behind ESO is 110% guilty of the predatory marketing scams talked about in this video. The creator gets a bit repetitive, but frankly, this stuff needs to be repeated over and over and over until it starts sinking in properly.

And I quote from the video - "If you need gambling mechanics to keep your games going, you shouldn't $#%^ing be in business."

Preach, brother. I hear Dragon Age 3 is going to be "games as service" which of course means "game as predatory marketing to hook players and make them addicts." So sad.

Yeah, I'm not usually a big fan of the Jimquisition because I'm not always fond of the tone but his videos about the industry itself are actually very well-argued and accurate and while influenced by his own subjective experience, they go further than just being an "opinion" : they state real ass facts. And actually in this situation, it's actually good that he has subjective experiences to share especially those of professionals in the industry because this insight is the WHOLE POINT.

As for DA4, yep, I read that that's the way they're going. It's going to be a mess. Inquisition already had many issues because of the forced implementation of the online mode (now that I think about it DAI also has short timed rotations probably for that specific reason and dang it DID I HATE IT THERE and do I also hate it in TESO but it suddenly makes sense that the combat would be so different). And also the pacing.

I'm tempted to try out Anthem if only to be mentally prepared to what DA4 could look like now.

PS - also, I like your signature : that's an attitude I can get behind

Ohtimbar

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

FlipFlopFrog

Yeah it's getting a bit silly now. Embarrassed to admit but I've probably spent 100's on appearance change tokens. Why do I need to spend money to change the appearance of my character?! Ridiculous...

Starlock

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

Well, if these forums are any indication the battle has largely been lost. A significant portion do not understand what is wrong with skill points and skill lines in the cash shop, for example. The conditioning has already happened. At this point, the law needs to catch up with the industry and regulate these practices.

Skitamine

I think they need to make a logo for that, like the M for Mature. Maybe an A for addiction risk. Not long ago a kid emptied his parent's bank for Fifa.

Ohtimbar

Starlock wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

Well, if these forums are any indication the battle has largely been lost. A significant portion do not understand what is wrong with skill points and skill lines in the cash shop, for example. The conditioning has already happened. At this point, the law needs to catch up with the industry and regulate these practices.

Agreed, it doesn't look good at least in the near term. Legislation will never materialize in the US and even the EU has mostly feigned concern and taken little action. I'm spending less time and money on these predatory titles, and more on indies and traditional sp games. I'm also playing tabletop games again, mostly Pathfinder. It's refreshing to not be nickel-and-dimed at every turn.

JamilaRaj

This is also hilarious at times, if you can put up with lethal doses of corporate newspeak.

Q: Do you collect information about age?
A: (I see. It is a trap!) No.
Q: How do you comply with Pan European Game Information rating then?
A: Wha-? Oh, yeah, PEGI (double trap, darn, totally forgot about that)...uh, um...we...uh...controls! There are controls in place!

I wonder how well these people are paid, because feeding the committee utter crap is a tough job and they did not seem super happy about having it. Or so I hope that was it. Maybe they just were not super happy about meeting their corporate overlords back home, because their performance was not exactly convincing.


EDIT: and another one from Sterling

JoStoic

This reminds me of how much I end up hating games that nickel and dime me. But I'm not sure where that puts me for how I feel about ESO in particular. For one, they have lootboxes where you can only get some stuff in the loot boxes, but on the other hand, if you pay the same monthly amount for a game that I payed for ragnarok online a years and years ago, they'll give you back game money to buy things with, which is objectively a good deal, considering how detailed the game is. Buuuut, that means some poor programmers and artists are being exploited probably. I definitely feel like that video reminds me that I've maybe gotten to comfy with loot boxes, and forgotten what a good game really feels like.

Thanks for posting. I needed this.

DocFrost72

Starlock wrote: »

Ohtimbar wrote: »

I think this disease has to run its course, sadly. The fever will break eventually. Still, it's best if people continue to complain as loudly as possible. Public shaming has its uses.

Well, if these forums are any indication the battle has largely been lost. A significant portion do not understand what is wrong with skill points and skill lines in the cash shop, for example. The conditioning has already happened. At this point, the law needs to catch up with the industry and regulate these practices.

Could it be some just disagree with you?

Itacira

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Could it be some just disagree with you?

They can disagree and be wrong about it. Listen, there are only so much politely agreeing to disagree one can do. We're not talking about whether chocolate is tasty or not or whether coffee tastes good or bitter like my soul. We're talking about a system that abuses its customers and its workers and enjoying the loot boxes doesn't make it right.

''waaaah it depends which philosophical framing you're using to consider it waaaaah''

I'm using the philosophical framing of common sense, empathy and living in the real world (as opposed to me me me individualism and ''If I don't mind it then it's okay'' school of thought).

Also, if someone is left to argue frame of reference to defend something the point they're defending is already lost. If I say 2+2=4 and you answer by saying that it depends on the numeracy system, it's technically true but that doesn't make it RIGHT. also a show of terrible bad faith

[i've gone on this tangent because the philosophical frame of reference is an ''argument'' that's been thrown at me on this same forum before with the glee of a child in debate groups whose goal is to ''win'' at any cost without thinking through the content of their words. ''but what isj wrong, really ?" well, doing some intellectual jerking off of the like, for starters]

DocFrost72

Itacira wrote: »

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Could it be some just disagree with you?

They can disagree and be wrong about it. Listen, there are only so much politely agreeing to disagree one can do. We're not talking about whether chocolate is tasty or not or whether coffee tastes good or bitter like my soul. We're talking about a system that abuses its customers and its workers and enjoying the loot boxes doesn't make itit right.

''waaaah it depends which philisophical framing you're using to consider it waaaaah''

I'm using the philosophical framing of common sense, empathy and living in the real world (as opposed to me me me individualism and ''If I don't mind it then it's okay'' school of thought).

Also, if someone is left to argue frame of reference to defend something the point they're defending is already lost. If I say 2+2=4 and you answer by saying that it depends on the numerary system, it's technically true but that doesn't make it RIGHT. also a show of terrible bad faith

[i've gone on this tangent because the philosophical frame of reference is an ''argument'' that's been thrown at me on this same forum before with the glee of a chils in debate groups whose goal is to ''win'' at any cost without thinking through the content of their words. ''but what isj wrong, really ?" well, doing some intellectual jerking off of the like, for starters]

Wow. So to be clear, in this one thread you've said I am;

Person who enjoys loot boxes (wrong),
Lacking common sense,
Lacking empathy,
Not living in the "real world",
Arguing in bad faith,
A child (or child like),
Trying to "win",
And intellectually... "servicing" myself, in so many words.

Here's why my actual position is; I don't partake in loot boxes. They do not contain anything necessary to the game. Cosmetics aren't a right (even when they were direct buy they weren't included base game. I don't think ZOS should be responsible for the problems individuals have while playing their game. I want those people to get help, but the best way to do that is to address the actual problem and not shield them from the symptoms. A gambling addict will be gambling. They could do it here, or on a card site. I sincerely hope anyone who does have a problem with gambling (or any other addiction) gets the help they need, but it isn't going to come from a for profit entertainment company.

I don't think you're wrong; I think you have different beliefs than me, you value some things more than others that doesn't line up with what I value (the individuality you so gleefully mock for starters), and I wouldn't call you names for disagreeing. If you can be civil, I will gladly respond to any further questions you have. Just please tag me

Itacira

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Wow. So to be clear, in this one thread you've said I am;

Person who enjoys loot boxes (wrong),
Lacking common sense,
Lacking empathy,
Not living in the "real world",
Arguing in bad faith,
A child (or child like),
Trying to "win",
And intellectually... "servicing" myself, in so many words.

Here's why my actual position is; I don't partake in loot boxes. They do not contain anything necessary to the game. Cosmetics aren't a right (even when they were direct buy they weren't included base game. I don't think ZOS should be responsible for the problems individuals have while playing their game. I want those people to get help, but the best way to do that is to address the actual problem and not shield them from the symptoms. A gambling addict will be gambling. They could do it here, or on a card site. I sincerely hope anyone who does have a problem with gambling (or any other addiction) gets the help they need, but it isn't going to come from a for profit entertainment company.

I don't think you're wrong; I think you have different beliefs than me, you value some things more than others that doesn't line up with what I value (the individuality you so gleefully mock for starters), and I wouldn't call you names for disagreeing. If you can be civil, I will gladly respond to any further questions you have. Just please tag me

This kind of conversations are complicated on a forum because it's a public-ish place, thus anyone can drop by and intervene, and on this specific forum these interventions can be tiresome in derailing the subject. As it has happened times and again before, and I'm glad that one year later after I started pointing some of this stuff out on the forum people have toned down on the gate keeping.

I recognize I've been proactive in my accusations, though to be clear too, from the moment I quoted someone imaginary arguing back ''waaaah it depends which philosophical framing you're using to consider it waaaaah'' I was replying to that same imaginary person. I was anticipating a tired argument that's been thrown on this forum again and again. Thus no, unless the attitudes I described and arguments I condemned are some that you share, I have not said you are any of those things. Otherwise I have to admit I'd not feel very bad about it.

Though I don't believe I've even said my imaginary arguer enjoyed lootboxes, because I don't even believe all those who defend this system enjoy lootboxes. Many just argue from a place of reactionarism : "don't you dare touch my game !" or, again, pseudo intellectual superiority : "please define morality or lack thereof"

Individualism is fine when it helps, well, individuals - it's a tool of survival - but when it's used to keep others down under the pretext that "I don't have a problem with something, thus my own personal experience should apply to anyone else" it becomes a real problem.

As for cosmetics, I disagree that they aren't necessary to the game. Housing is purely cosmetic and it is necessary to the game since it's part of its enjoyment. Or else, what do we decide is or isn't necessary to a game ? art quality isn't necessary ? Animation isn't necessary ? [these are rhetorical questions]

The problem with loot boxes, AS STATED IN THE VIDEO, AND THEN ANOTHER VIDEO, AND FINALLY A THIRD ONE, THIS THREAD IS FULL OF EXAMPLES, is that they're predatorious. It's not a "simple" case of a few gambling addicts falling unintendedly down the rabbit hole, it's a matter of purposefully making people fall down that hole. And even pushing people whose addiction had never manifested, who didn't consider themselves addicted, who weren't addicts. Because as much as we like to deny it and pretend moral superiority as if it were merely a matter of self control, we all have the possibility of addiction ingrained in us. This is why these micro transaction methods are so efficient.

I do not have questions for you. I plainly disagree with you, and you have nothing to explain to me. On this subject, the only reason I would have to agree to disagree is so as not to waste time arguing for the sake of arguing. So I'll agree to disagree with you and keep speaking out against an industry whose ethics are profoundly questionable.

Waynerx8

It costs money and time to make a quality game, so in the current climate, they produce a game that is intentionally grindy and a boring long drawn out ***, then plaster boosters, exp, or that super shiny ghost *** mount, all over the game.


They also claim it's not about making extra money, its there to enhance the experience, complete arse, you know exactly what you are doing, fortunately I don't spend money on this stuff, but some can't help themselves.


The sooner this shite is removed the better, ZO$ don't do f?ck all about fixing their game, except constantly shovelling crap cosmetic stuff to appease the share holders.

Pops_ND_Irish

If you dont want, don't buy !

Itacira

Pops_ND_Irish wrote: »

If you dont want, don't buy !

Did you watch the videos ? Did you read the comments ? Do you have any reason not to hope for a better industry ?

xMovingTarget

If people would stop buying this crap, it wouldnt be a thing. Companies using these mechanics are not the only issue. People giving them money for it incentivising this behaviour is the real issue.
If people would stop falling for loot box mechanics, limited time offers, those would not exist.
On the digital market there are NO LIMITED items. It is all artificial to make you buy it. Dont buy it, they will disappear.
You cant only blame the companies. Consumers are to blame just as much.

Delparis

Pigs, whales, ...

Animals