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Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W
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Dragneel1207✭✭✭✭If you define P2W stupidly enough then EVERYTHING ever is pay to win.
You didn't buy a sub to WOW so you can't play so it is pay to win.
I have a faster internet connection and better PC than you so Fortnite/LOL/COD/Starcraft whatever is pay to win.
You have slightly better eyesight because you bought glasses so rock, paper, scissors is pay to win.
You went to a fancy private school while someone else went to a ghetto school, so life is pay to win.
Please stop making the definition so wide that is it meaningless.
If ZoS sold a BiS CP200 armour set that you could ONLY get in the crown shop that would be pay to win.
Stuff that you can get for free in the game anyway (without totally unreasonable grind) is not pay to win.
Please stop.
life is payto win ***0 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Given magnitude of changes each patch and average time available for playing for average player which have work, school, family duties whatever, buying skyshards and skill lines becomes a P2W, at least on level of high end PVE and competitive PVP.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Once again pay ty o win is paying for an advantage UNOBTAINABLE by other means that makes you better then those who dont pay. But what do I know idiots now days call everything p2w.
Here is a perfect example of declaring something above others.
I have a much different definition, why exactly is the above definition correct and others incorrect?
I say P2W is basically paying to get a significant, to include reducing time, in-game advantage regardless of the ability to obtain it in game.
Now anyone explain to me why my definition must be wrong and the other right as opposed to being just two opinions?
Because the vast majority of the gaming community across many types of games do not share the opinion you have suggested. The majority shares the opinion that pay to win is obtaining something with funds outside the game that gives you an advantage and can't be obtained through game play. The majority is significant enough that this has become the accepted definition. People are trying to redefine the phrase to fit their particular argument.
They feel acquiring skill lines with real world currency is a bad idea. They know most players here do not like the concept of pay to win so they try to make pay to win somehow fit to support their argument. In this case it does not. That doesn't mean acquiring skills with real world currency can't be a bad idea. Simply means they are not making a good argument trying to use pay to win when most don't see buying skill lines as pay to win.and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."2 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭Because the vast majority of the gaming community across many types of games do not share the opinion you have suggested. The majority shares the opinion that pay to win is obtaining something with funds outside the game that gives you an advantage and can't be obtained through game play. The majority is significant enough that this has become the accepted definition. People are trying to redefine the phrase to fit their particular argument.
The "majority" you see is "significant" to you. You and your majority are the ones twisting definitions to fit your level of tolerance to corruption. Pay-to-win is paying out-of-game for a competitive advantage in-game. Simple as that, no need for elaborate ifs or whens. That you consider certain level of pay-to-win acceptable doesn't change the fact it's pay-to-win.
EU ‣ Wabbajack nostalgic ‣ Blackwater Blade defender ‣ Kyne wanderer
The offspring of the root of all evil in ESO by DeanTheCat
Why ESO needs a monthly subscription
When an MMO is designed around a revenue model rather than around fun, it doesn’t have a long-term future. ― Richard A. Bartle
Their idea of transparent, at least when it comes to communication, bears a striking resemblance to a block of coal. ― lordrichter
... in the balance of power between the accountants and marketing types against the artists, developers and those who generally want to build and run a good game then that balance needs to always be in favour of the latter - because the former will drag the game into the ground for every last bean they can squeeze out of it. ― Santie Claws1 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Game's dead PvE and PvP endgame wise. At this point, it doesn't matter anymore, let them spend hundreds of $€ for their questing and RPing experience.0 -
Cpt_Teemo✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Facefister wrote: »Game's dead PvE and PvP endgame wise. At this point, it doesn't matter anymore, let them spend hundreds of $€ for their questing and RPing experience.
Just depends if your not into the game or not anymore, good to take breaks as well if your not having fun but its not really dead tbh. I haven't been doing much lately as well just been doing crafting dailies and it was feeling like an actual job instead of fun so I quit doing it and cancelled Eso+ and went with Xbox gold now cause they merged both Pass + Gold together now and think its more worth my $ now instead of investing into Eso+ just doing dailies etc.
I would come back if they would reduce the cost of monthly fee's or give us options for Preferred to having alot more storage than we have now cause right now even preferred has barely anything compared to B2p. Really wish this game had storage just like Swtor did so much space per character in that game and also for the account wide bank as well.1 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The last big chapter delivered a lousy mini-raid. Besides, this game dropping the subscription is the worst thing what happened to it.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because the vast majority of the gaming community across many types of games do not share the opinion you have suggested. The majority shares the opinion that pay to win is obtaining something with funds outside the game that gives you an advantage and can't be obtained through game play. The majority is significant enough that this has become the accepted definition. People are trying to redefine the phrase to fit their particular argument.
The "majority" you see is "significant" to you. You and your majority are the ones twisting definitions to fit your level of tolerance to corruption. Pay-to-win is paying out-of-game for a competitive advantage in-game. Simple as that, no need for elaborate ifs or whens. That you consider certain level of pay-to-win acceptable doesn't change the fact it's pay-to-win.
I agree that pay to win is "paying out-of-game for a competitive advantage in-game" and since we can get all the skill lines in game buying the skills does not provide an advantage in the game. There will be no skill in the crown store I don't already have or can get if I so choose in the game.
(Edit to add)
The new player vs new player angle a few have tried to argue doesn't fly. A new player will not have a character that has completed the skill lines so will not have the option to buy them.Edited by kargen27 on July 17, 2019 4:09AMand then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭
Except you haven't been reading this thread... You might have those skill lines, others do not. Every-time I win a duel with my Necro or Warden I wonder if I would have won that if they had access to these skill lines. Even under your very very narrow definition of P2W it still violates that.
I find it ironic and humorous that everybody has their own definition of P2W... and that in one way or another ESO manages to tick that box. Regardless if the poster is aware of such. I digress, you can buy skill lines outside of the game under your rules it's P2W.Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 19, 2019 1:51PM0 -
pelle412✭✭✭✭✭Many things you can buy in the crown store would fall in a loose definition of pay-2-win. I can buy horse riding lessons and win a horse race because I spent money. I can buy motifs with real money and get more master crafting writs than you and become richer. I can buy a fancier house than you and intimidate you with all my fancy decorations you couldn't possibly afford. I can buy skill lines and potentially defeat you in a level 3 duel.
Who gives a crap about this stuff?
When you can buy gear in the crown store that makes it much more difficult to defeat you in PvP (at max level) or give you an unfair advantage in raids, that's where I draw the line.1 -
Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
That's not the same. Your comparing Apples and Aardvarks. This whole subject is a grey line. If they put BIS gear in the crown store, that is what I would call pay to win. The rest that we seem to be discussing is what I call pay to advance faster.
Some people have more money to spend that time, and this is what the gaming companies are targeting. That convenience of pay to advance faster.
Keeping in mind that someone needs to pay for everything that keeps the company running. I want to say thanks to all of those players that have more money than time/sense that do purchase all of these things that I personally would not. There spending on these advancement items is what allows me to play the game.
Here is another theoretical case for you.
So Player "A" is a student on summer break and can grind the skills all day during the week. No one is currently complaining about that. Player "B" has to work and chooses to buy the crown store upgrade so that he can keep up with Player A that didn't have to work like he did. (Player B would have had to do this on another character in the past to be able to do this)
So in this situation, Player B is skipping the grind in trying to keep up with player "A" that did not have Real Life time commitments outside of the game. No one wants to argue about the time the some people have the luxury of spending on the game.
Thorvik
What's more it's not "skipping the grind", even the person who doesn't have the time to play as much as he or she wants would have to go through the grind at least once, initially falling behind people who do have the time and reaching max level and max skill lines long after the others do. Now this person who has already gone through the grind simply wants to skip repeating it multiple times for different characters as they simply don't have the time. They just want to enjoy the game in the limited time that they do have, especially since they have gone through the grind once before. What is wrong with that? Once again, games like Guild Wars 2 offer ACCOUNT-WIDE progression on mount training for multiple different types of mounts they have and glider skills. With the expansions they released many horizontal progression skills that are all account-wide along with achievements. They also offer a level 80 boost!
Such conveniences which allow casual players to grind once and use the skills on multiple alts by paying a penalty in money will attract more players to the game, people who have more money than time, people who never get to have fun anymore in MMORPGs and are sidelined as "casuals".<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg></a></p>0 -
Because the vast majority of the gaming community across many types of games do not share the opinion you have suggested. The majority shares the opinion that pay to win is obtaining something with funds outside the game that gives you an advantage and can't be obtained through game play. The majority is significant enough that this has become the accepted definition. People are trying to redefine the phrase to fit their particular argument.
The "majority" you see is "significant" to you. You and your majority are the ones twisting definitions to fit your level of tolerance to corruption. Pay-to-win is paying out-of-game for a competitive advantage in-game. Simple as that, no need for elaborate ifs or whens. That you consider certain level of pay-to-win acceptable doesn't change the fact it's pay-to-win.
For the last time... THERE IS NO ADVANTAGE!
The players who pay don't get to skip the grind altogether, the only difference is that they get to do it only once, which is reasonable, no one wants to spend precious recreational time doing things they've already done.
Emphasis on ALREADY DONE<p align=center><a target=_blank href=http://www.nodiatis.com/personality.htm><img border=0 src=http://www.nodiatis.com/pub/12.jpg></a></p>0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭At this point I would like to point out that the latest skill line that was added (Psijic) was by far the most grindy, most annoying, most shallow and least interesting of all the skill line grinds, and then suggest that you go watch this video:
ZOS are literally selling people a solution to a problem they themselves created. And let's not forget how ESO ingame store at first only sold cosmetics, but now is selling every type of pay-for-convenience item possible, such as full skill lines and plenty of skill points (skyshards), exactly like their affiliated company BGS is doing over at Fallout76. Give it half a year down the line, and you'll be able to buy fully leveled up characters as well. And if it wasn't for the obvious backlash they would face, I can ssure you ZOS would love nothing more than sell you gold endgame gear as well. Perhaps they will, once the toad has been boiled enough in the pot not to notice the transition, since these additions are of course perfectly alright and only pay for convenience and not true pay to win, in the eyes of some.3
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otT6w0-jGI0