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Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W
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Vandril✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »There's a wealth of goals and a plethora of ways to prioritize them, so basically everyone can have their own definition of what "win" means. One person't win is another person's pointless waste of time. That means the definition of P2W varies from person to person.
This. This is what I've been saying, but put more succinctly. P2W is ultimately a buzzword, at this point, and it's pointless to argue over strict definitions of it. The sooner people accept that there is no universally accepted definition of P2W and stop bickering over it, the sooner we can get to the real meat of the issues with MMO cash shops and hold meaningful conversation about them.Edited by Vandril on July 8, 2019 9:28PM5 -
El_Borracho✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lol at people here trying to redefine words. “Pay to Win” literally means use money to gain an advantage in a competition over another person that isn’t available without purchase. Buying max skill lines on alts is pay to win in lowbie pvp and that’s it. ZOS just needs to make the purchasable skill lines only active for level 50 characters, and it’s no longer pay to win. Cosmetics aren’t a competition. Furnishings aren’t a competition. The number of *** flames coming out of your mount’s ass isn’t a competition. Some people just need to get a grip.
EXACTLY. And the "advantage" would be short-lived as the time it takes to level from 1-50 is also short. Do people really want to win in Kyne this badly?0 -
rpa✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't have strong feelings if unlocking already learned skyshards & skill lines on alts are pay to win or just pay to not play. If publisher cared about QOL that stuff just could as well be freely account wide. However crown store riding lessons are p2w.1 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.
It doesn't matter if you've done it before. It doesn't matter if it's convenient. Craft bag is convenient--it's NOT p2w. Skyshards is convenient--it's NOT p2w (since you can have all the skshards--your level 3 can only use a few right now, thus no strategic advantage). We need to recognize that buying a fully levelled skill line is ABSOLUTELY pay to win, even if it's not game-breaking. Have fun in those under 50 BGs, folks, if you don't think this is P2W, when your opponent has all their undaunted passives (impossible to get without paying for it), full Fighter's Guild skill lines (which you would necessarily have to level through, ya know, playing the game), etc.
FOr example, imagine 2 players on brand new toons in a duel. Both have the same cp alotted, the same gear, the same skill level. Which one has the strategic advantage? The one with fully levelled skills (BIS ultimate and great passives from FG, defense from psijic, mag recovery and total from Mage's Guild, 6% more stats from undaunted) that are impossible for a level 3 to get? Or the one who does not have these skills? Obviously, the first player has the strategic advantage. And is it possible for a level three to gain these skills WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT? WE just arrived at the definition of P2W.
Point being, P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W.
Note: This is the first time I've ever agreed that anything in this game is P2W. My forum history is usually really different on this topic, but here we're finally getting into P2W territory. I invite constructive responses to my logic, fully expecting the typical forum fare.
Your definition is to narrow. A much better definition is paying to gain an advantage circumventing normal gameplay processes.
As such yes buying skills is P2W
Also as I have posted before no one can point to an official definition of P2W so anyone saying it only means what they say it means is full of it. Historically P2W meant gaining access to something more easily though monetary means than gameplay. Early on companies offered in game items for pay because they intentionally made them hard if not practically impossible to achieve via gameplay, D3 was a great example of this in how they managed their auction house before they removed it due to player outrage. This is why I choose to define P2W as I do in this post.Edited by Skwor on July 8, 2019 10:05PM6 -
Starlock✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MasterSpatula wrote: »There's a wealth of goals and a plethora of ways to prioritize them, so basically everyone can have their own definition of what win means. One person't win is another person's pointless waste of time. That means the definition of P2W varies from person to person.
Of course, the ESO community positively teems with people so self-involved that they cannot conceive of anyone's priorities but their own having value, which is how we get into snide pissing matches like what this thread has already devolved into.
For me, coming to this game as an RPG enthusiast, your character's growth has to be earned by that character or you're playing a bad game. If this feature had been in the game at launch, there's a good chance I'd never have played. (Of course, they promised us it would be Sub-Only with no cash shop at launch, and a lot of us only ever played because of that promise.)
Allowing you to just pay RW money to skip your character's growth is a thing good RPG developers are quite literally incapable of doing. So, for me, this isn't so much P2W as "Pay to actually diminish the game itself." Others, who don't value the character-growth experience, wouldn't see it that way at all.
What’s really depressing about this is that the developers could have integrated this as a feature that enhanced the RPG aspects of the game. They could have introduced, say, character backgrounds. When you make a character, you can pick a few areas your character has some starting proficiency in. But no, instead they monetize the crap out of this.3 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Instant Research scrolls in crown Store allow you to learn every trait in one day. The non crown Store Scrolls have a cooldown.
No, they only cut 1, 7 or 15 days of the time. The later traits can take up to 46 days (IIRC) if you haven't plowed skill points into them.
I am not sure who has enough crowns (and cash to buy those crowns) to do all the research quickly, but it is doable at a very high cost.PC
PS4/PS51 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What’s really depressing about this is that the developers could have integrated this as a feature that enhanced the RPG aspects of the game. They could have introduced, say, character backgrounds. When you make a character, you can pick a few areas your character has some starting proficiency in. But no, instead they monetize the crap out of this.
Well, hey, remember when buying and selling gold was a bannable offense, right up until ZOS decided it was totally cool as long as they got a cut? I guess nothing they do with the Crown Store should surprise me anymore."A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle3 -
exeeter702✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
That's not the same. Your comparing Apples and Aardvarks. This whole subject is a grey line. If they put BIS gear in the crown store, that is what I would call pay to win. The rest that we seem to be discussing is what I call pay to advance faster.
Some people have more money to spend that time, and this is what the gaming companies are targeting. That convenience of pay to advance faster.
Keeping in mind that someone needs to pay for everything that keeps the company running. I want to say thanks to all of those players that have more money than time/sense that do purchase all of these things that I personally would not. There spending on these advancement items is what allows me to play the game.
Here is another theoretical case for you.
So Player "A" is a student on summer break and can grind the skills all day during the week. No one is currently complaining about that. Player "B" has to work and chooses to buy the crown store upgrade so that he can keep up with Player A that didn't have to work like he did. (Player B would have had to do this on another character in the past to be able to do this)
So in this situation, Player B is skipping the grind in trying to keep up with player "A" that did not have Real Life time commitments outside of the game. No one wants to argue about the time the some people have the luxury of spending on the game.
Thorvik
Thats not the same ? What exactly ? I am not comparing anything. It was an example i made using another person's definition of P2W.
Sure. Using your logic we can start selling emperors ( we can even have an auction ) or AP boosters. To ADVANCE FASTER , you know. Or pve-only potions of invincibility to ADVANCE FASTER in vMA and vet trials.
I mean they are busy people and do not have time to learn and practice. So they should buy it.
I understand why you're reaching to extreme examples, because this isn't typically made clear, but... The difference between what most people mean when they say "pay to advance faster" as opposed to "pay to win" is that, with the former term, paying only allows skipping content of trivial difficulty - leveling, skill grinding, etc. This is content that practically everyone can do with ease, but that takes substantial amounts of time. Being able to purchase gear sets and other rewards that come from content of non-trivial difficulty is indeed a different beast entirely. The logical distinction is there, whether or not you feel it is strong enough of one.
All i want is a CONSISTENT ARGUMENT. You cannot just skip ANY CONTENT because you want to ADVANCE faster. OR have to work. There is ( or should be ) some limitations to that.exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
One *** thing doesnt not make it the same as all *** things. Stop with the ridiculous strawmans. Putting BIS gear would be terrible for numerous reasons, but that doesnt qualify it as P2W. This mindset is precisely why over the years, threads like this pop up in game discussions because people dont have the first clue what P2W actually means and just wants to slap P2W on anything that undermines the spirit of a game through cash shop offerings.
Strawmans ? I have made a simple EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION of P2W and asking a simple question : are you okay with it ?
You really should google definition of strawman.
And no , P2W nowadays is not a sword of a Thousand Truths in the store. Noone will buy it anymore. Now they selling inventory slots , potions for restoring job points , ingame currency , etc. They selling the same sword just indirectly.
In no way shape or form was the definition described likened to selling bis gear on the cash shop. The strawman was you using that question as a rebuttal when it was not relevant whatsoever in an attempt to form a argument out of something that was never said.
BiS gear on the crown store is absolutely a *** move but it does not qualify as P2W because said gear is not exclusive to the cash shop and is fully obtainable within game. You are conflating two different cash shop issues. They are both terrible and most developers stray from your ridiculous example for very obvious reasons but that does not make it p2w.
Dude , just read what you have wrote :
P2W is being able to buy something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game
I dont see here "No BiS gear in shop" part. So you can sell BiS gear in store if you can get it in game and it will be not P2W according to you. You also didnt say anything about TIME that you will need to get items from shop.
And then i have made my EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION.
If you cannot understand this - i cant help you and will not bother with reading the rest of your post.
Sigh... im failing to understand why you are confusing what i am saying.
What i said was that p2w in its creation, was the practice of selling advantages in game that a player would otherwise not be able to aquire without spending money.
You then said, "so selling bis gear would be ok since in time you can get it in game".
Its a strawman because i am not ok with that for various reasons that undermines the integrity of mmo progression and i never suggested otherwise. That is entirely separate to p2w by the definition that was laid out for you. P2w in that case would be if said BIS gear was exclusively on the cash shop and the best you could get in game was at a power budget lower than that gear on the shop.
Your hyperbolic example would most definitely anger almost every player for good reason. But that is not P2w. That is another beast entirely.
Again , just google the definition of strawman. This is just silly.
"P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. "
Your words. Show me "i am not ok with that for various reasons " part. Oh , and in case you didnt noticed - i didnt say that you are okay with it. Thats why i asked you:
"So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?" To to clarify your position.
And you should google the definition of hyperbole also.
Why did you feel it neccessary to ask me a question that did not pertain the the subject that i was reffering to? My position on selling bis gear in a cash shop is this : its a *** terrible practice that most modern developers have steered clear from doing for obvious reasons. That answer does not invalidate what I said regarding p2w. You asking me that question appeared to be an attempt at misdirecting the point i was making especially with the "no big deal" at the end of it.
I said - placing objectively superior gear (or any other statistical advantage) on the cash shop that cant be obtained in any other way in game is p2w.
Obviously selling BIS gear on the cash shop is a big *** deal that no one in their right mind would support.
And just to be clear, your initial question was to @idk not me. Not that it changes much since i am in agreement with his comment of
""P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. " His wordsEdited by exeeter702 on July 8, 2019 10:29PM0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »
Sure I can. You can obtain those legendary crates eventually through gameplay (1 in 256 or so last I saw), but you get them instantly just buying them. In your definition, since it can be obtained through grinding, it couldn’t possibly be P2W.1 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove several posts for flaming, baiting and even a bit of off-topic content, which is against the Forum Rules. For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful with one another to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.
Thank you for understanding.0 -
Massacre_Wurm✭✭✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
That's not the same. Your comparing Apples and Aardvarks. This whole subject is a grey line. If they put BIS gear in the crown store, that is what I would call pay to win. The rest that we seem to be discussing is what I call pay to advance faster.
Some people have more money to spend that time, and this is what the gaming companies are targeting. That convenience of pay to advance faster.
Keeping in mind that someone needs to pay for everything that keeps the company running. I want to say thanks to all of those players that have more money than time/sense that do purchase all of these things that I personally would not. There spending on these advancement items is what allows me to play the game.
Here is another theoretical case for you.
So Player "A" is a student on summer break and can grind the skills all day during the week. No one is currently complaining about that. Player "B" has to work and chooses to buy the crown store upgrade so that he can keep up with Player A that didn't have to work like he did. (Player B would have had to do this on another character in the past to be able to do this)
So in this situation, Player B is skipping the grind in trying to keep up with player "A" that did not have Real Life time commitments outside of the game. No one wants to argue about the time the some people have the luxury of spending on the game.
Thorvik
Thats not the same ? What exactly ? I am not comparing anything. It was an example i made using another person's definition of P2W.
Sure. Using your logic we can start selling emperors ( we can even have an auction ) or AP boosters. To ADVANCE FASTER , you know. Or pve-only potions of invincibility to ADVANCE FASTER in vMA and vet trials.
I mean they are busy people and do not have time to learn and practice. So they should buy it.
I understand why you're reaching to extreme examples, because this isn't typically made clear, but... The difference between what most people mean when they say "pay to advance faster" as opposed to "pay to win" is that, with the former term, paying only allows skipping content of trivial difficulty - leveling, skill grinding, etc. This is content that practically everyone can do with ease, but that takes substantial amounts of time. Being able to purchase gear sets and other rewards that come from content of non-trivial difficulty is indeed a different beast entirely. The logical distinction is there, whether or not you feel it is strong enough of one.
All i want is a CONSISTENT ARGUMENT. You cannot just skip ANY CONTENT because you want to ADVANCE faster. OR have to work. There is ( or should be ) some limitations to that.exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
One *** thing doesnt not make it the same as all *** things. Stop with the ridiculous strawmans. Putting BIS gear would be terrible for numerous reasons, but that doesnt qualify it as P2W. This mindset is precisely why over the years, threads like this pop up in game discussions because people dont have the first clue what P2W actually means and just wants to slap P2W on anything that undermines the spirit of a game through cash shop offerings.
Strawmans ? I have made a simple EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION of P2W and asking a simple question : are you okay with it ?
You really should google definition of strawman.
And no , P2W nowadays is not a sword of a Thousand Truths in the store. Noone will buy it anymore. Now they selling inventory slots , potions for restoring job points , ingame currency , etc. They selling the same sword just indirectly.
In no way shape or form was the definition described likened to selling bis gear on the cash shop. The strawman was you using that question as a rebuttal when it was not relevant whatsoever in an attempt to form a argument out of something that was never said.
BiS gear on the crown store is absolutely a *** move but it does not qualify as P2W because said gear is not exclusive to the cash shop and is fully obtainable within game. You are conflating two different cash shop issues. They are both terrible and most developers stray from your ridiculous example for very obvious reasons but that does not make it p2w.
Dude , just read what you have wrote :
P2W is being able to buy something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game
I dont see here "No BiS gear in shop" part. So you can sell BiS gear in store if you can get it in game and it will be not P2W according to you. You also didnt say anything about TIME that you will need to get items from shop.
And then i have made my EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION.
If you cannot understand this - i cant help you and will not bother with reading the rest of your post.
Sigh... im failing to understand why you are confusing what i am saying.
What i said was that p2w in its creation, was the practice of selling advantages in game that a player would otherwise not be able to aquire without spending money.
You then said, "so selling bis gear would be ok since in time you can get it in game".
Its a strawman because i am not ok with that for various reasons that undermines the integrity of mmo progression and i never suggested otherwise. That is entirely separate to p2w by the definition that was laid out for you. P2w in that case would be if said BIS gear was exclusively on the cash shop and the best you could get in game was at a power budget lower than that gear on the shop.
Your hyperbolic example would most definitely anger almost every player for good reason. But that is not P2w. That is another beast entirely.
Again , just google the definition of strawman. This is just silly.
"P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. "
Your words. Show me "i am not ok with that for various reasons " part. Oh , and in case you didnt noticed - i didnt say that you are okay with it. Thats why i asked you:
"So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?" To to clarify your position.
And you should google the definition of hyperbole also.
Why did you feel it neccessary to ask me a question that did not pertain the the subject that i was reffering to? My position on selling bis gear in a cash shop is this : its a *** terrible practice that most modern developers have steered clear from doing for obvious reasons. That answer does not invalidate what I said regarding p2w. You asking me that question appeared to be an attempt at misdirecting the point i was making especially with the "no big deal" at the end of it.
I said - placing objectively superior gear (or any other statistical advantage) on the cash shop that cant be obtained in any other way in game is p2w.
Obviously selling BIS gear on the cash shop is a big *** deal that no one in their right mind would support.
And just to be clear, your initial question was to @idk not me. Not that it changes much since i am in agreement with his comment of
""P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. " His words
Because i want to ask that question ? Do i need some specific reason for this ? Okay , you dont like selling bis gear in cash shop. So i have a next question for you :
Selling BiS gear in shop if you can grind it in 6 months is not P2W according to your definition ( or definition you agree with ) , right ? And now i am asking about given DEFINITION. Not about your opinion or you support.
Dont answer if you dont want. Just dont start your favorite strawman-dodging ( or should i say - misderecting the point ? )
0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
That's not the same. Your comparing Apples and Aardvarks. This whole subject is a grey line. If they put BIS gear in the crown store, that is what I would call pay to win. The rest that we seem to be discussing is what I call pay to advance faster.
Some people have more money to spend that time, and this is what the gaming companies are targeting. That convenience of pay to advance faster.
Keeping in mind that someone needs to pay for everything that keeps the company running. I want to say thanks to all of those players that have more money than time/sense that do purchase all of these things that I personally would not. There spending on these advancement items is what allows me to play the game.
Here is another theoretical case for you.
So Player "A" is a student on summer break and can grind the skills all day during the week. No one is currently complaining about that. Player "B" has to work and chooses to buy the crown store upgrade so that he can keep up with Player A that didn't have to work like he did. (Player B would have had to do this on another character in the past to be able to do this)
So in this situation, Player B is skipping the grind in trying to keep up with player "A" that did not have Real Life time commitments outside of the game. No one wants to argue about the time the some people have the luxury of spending on the game.
Thorvik
Thats not the same ? What exactly ? I am not comparing anything. It was an example i made using another person's definition of P2W.
Sure. Using your logic we can start selling emperors ( we can even have an auction ) or AP boosters. To ADVANCE FASTER , you know. Or pve-only potions of invincibility to ADVANCE FASTER in vMA and vet trials.
I mean they are busy people and do not have time to learn and practice. So they should buy it.
I understand why you're reaching to extreme examples, because this isn't typically made clear, but... The difference between what most people mean when they say "pay to advance faster" as opposed to "pay to win" is that, with the former term, paying only allows skipping content of trivial difficulty - leveling, skill grinding, etc. This is content that practically everyone can do with ease, but that takes substantial amounts of time. Being able to purchase gear sets and other rewards that come from content of non-trivial difficulty is indeed a different beast entirely. The logical distinction is there, whether or not you feel it is strong enough of one.
All i want is a CONSISTENT ARGUMENT. You cannot just skip ANY CONTENT because you want to ADVANCE faster. OR have to work. There is ( or should be ) some limitations to that.exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »exeeter702 wrote: »Massacre_Wurm wrote: »P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.
My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.
So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?
One *** thing doesnt not make it the same as all *** things. Stop with the ridiculous strawmans. Putting BIS gear would be terrible for numerous reasons, but that doesnt qualify it as P2W. This mindset is precisely why over the years, threads like this pop up in game discussions because people dont have the first clue what P2W actually means and just wants to slap P2W on anything that undermines the spirit of a game through cash shop offerings.
Strawmans ? I have made a simple EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION of P2W and asking a simple question : are you okay with it ?
You really should google definition of strawman.
And no , P2W nowadays is not a sword of a Thousand Truths in the store. Noone will buy it anymore. Now they selling inventory slots , potions for restoring job points , ingame currency , etc. They selling the same sword just indirectly.
In no way shape or form was the definition described likened to selling bis gear on the cash shop. The strawman was you using that question as a rebuttal when it was not relevant whatsoever in an attempt to form a argument out of something that was never said.
BiS gear on the crown store is absolutely a *** move but it does not qualify as P2W because said gear is not exclusive to the cash shop and is fully obtainable within game. You are conflating two different cash shop issues. They are both terrible and most developers stray from your ridiculous example for very obvious reasons but that does not make it p2w.
Dude , just read what you have wrote :
P2W is being able to buy something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game
I dont see here "No BiS gear in shop" part. So you can sell BiS gear in store if you can get it in game and it will be not P2W according to you. You also didnt say anything about TIME that you will need to get items from shop.
And then i have made my EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION.
If you cannot understand this - i cant help you and will not bother with reading the rest of your post.
Sigh... im failing to understand why you are confusing what i am saying.
What i said was that p2w in its creation, was the practice of selling advantages in game that a player would otherwise not be able to aquire without spending money.
You then said, "so selling bis gear would be ok since in time you can get it in game".
Its a strawman because i am not ok with that for various reasons that undermines the integrity of mmo progression and i never suggested otherwise. That is entirely separate to p2w by the definition that was laid out for you. P2w in that case would be if said BIS gear was exclusively on the cash shop and the best you could get in game was at a power budget lower than that gear on the shop.
Your hyperbolic example would most definitely anger almost every player for good reason. But that is not P2w. That is another beast entirely.
Again , just google the definition of strawman. This is just silly.
"P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. "
Your words. Show me "i am not ok with that for various reasons " part. Oh , and in case you didnt noticed - i didnt say that you are okay with it. Thats why i asked you:
"So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?" To to clarify your position.
And you should google the definition of hyperbole also.
Why did you feel it neccessary to ask me a question that did not pertain the the subject that i was reffering to? My position on selling bis gear in a cash shop is this : its a *** terrible practice that most modern developers have steered clear from doing for obvious reasons. That answer does not invalidate what I said regarding p2w. You asking me that question appeared to be an attempt at misdirecting the point i was making especially with the "no big deal" at the end of it.
I said - placing objectively superior gear (or any other statistical advantage) on the cash shop that cant be obtained in any other way in game is p2w.
Obviously selling BIS gear on the cash shop is a big *** deal that no one in their right mind would support.
And just to be clear, your initial question was to @idk not me. Not that it changes much since i am in agreement with his comment of
""P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. " His words
Please link the source that defines P2W and then provide the source for the authority by which it was defined. If you are going to make an assertion of fact you are responsible to source it and provide the credentials to show the authority to declare bounds of the definition.0 -
Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭Well currently Stam-Necro are parsing the highest. That is by anyone's definition P2W. As long as this class or the Warden is top it's P2W.
Since they seem to be re-balancing the max food (Bloody Mara) the crown food and drink might parse higher now, my definition of P2W is giving any players with cash ANY in-game advantage. That could be a simply as less time needed to do things, or a set that is superior to others not paying. (I.E Monster Sets)
We are in a very strange time in ESO, inching closer and closer to a more P2W. Gold sellers are another, technically it is possible for a wealthy person IRL to purchase Millions upon millions of gold very easily. This is so prevalent to can go to Auridon right now at any given time as see. You could then in Theory buy ALL the rare and low level gear spiking the price. This is already done with bot/s and mats.
This is not counting the Exp scrolls, mount upgrade, sets, and others.
People with money also get to grab a very expensive race change token - meaning they can change thier builds to parse higher on the turn of a dime. Leaving the others to play catch up which brings me to my final point.
Yes half this thread ALMOST has it right, you can in theory earn most besides the sets and class without paying. What they are not considering is the rate of these changes actually does push this game into the P2W model. These changes are happening so quick, and so frequent that an average non paying player who doesn't visit the forum can't catch up. Giving those that pay a clear advantage. My teenage daughter plays pretty averagely 10~20hrs a week tops. She doesn't simply have the time to enjoy the game and learn her rotations without having to relearn new ones and build a new build. People under that same situation that pay simply do.
I could go on but this is already pretty long. I'm already going to get the planted ZoS employees and drones with the one liners "Nah uh no its not."Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 8, 2019 11:28PM1 -
Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭
@SkworPlease link the source that defines P2W and then provide the source for the authority by which it was defined. If you are going to make an assertion of fact you are responsible to source it and provide the credentials to show the authority to declare bounds of the definition.
This is the biggest staw-man argument on here. You don't need an official description of the word to reference what is going on. If we are going to get this technical the U.S has no official language - meaning every word you type is based on a general consensus of what is accepted. Or in your narrow definition, not real.
If everything is burning around you, and a man runs past screaming the world is on fire - is it not real because he lacks the proper verbiage to describe what is happening? Of course not. But under your rules you won't get burned, good luck with that.
But even under your very very narrow definition it's still P2W. If the necro beat anyone ever (or the warden) that was an advantage. The person beat does not have access right now to go and get that build that they were beat with. Similar builds and debates aside - what if they want THAT build only that beat them? They must pay. There is your answer. Yes technically you are paying for skills.Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 8, 2019 11:47PM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pulled my response from another thread... So it will seem a bit out of context.
Seems like a pretty straight forward thing to me.
You have a competitive goal that has some concrete form of attainment (ranking, prize, bragging rights, etc).
You have resources to attain that goal (items, skills, some form of tangible progression).
Those resources can be attained for free at a fixed rate, or more quickly or advantageously at a paid rate.
Ergo: Pay to Win.
Whether or not a thing is pay to win is determined by if it falls within that paradigm.
So if you put in money, and get out winning, its paying to win.
There's no grey area about it, nor is it a self-defined idea.
...and to apply a legislative definition to it set forward by capitalistic enterprise is pretty ridiculous, since the term or expression is loosely used to imply that only people with money get to play competitively. That's like if you took the expression "The pot calling the kettle black" and letting kitchen-aid define it as "You should buy the black kettle to go with your black pot." A pre-existing legal definition is not going to do justice to the actual concept, because it is rooted in accessible game-play and anti-oppressive appropriation of competitive gaming, and capital models are inherently antithetical to that idea (which is pretty much why it rubs players the wrong way, since hardline micro-transactions at a competitive level are a giant FU to competitive players who are being viewed as gaming addiction cash cows, and it pushes players away rather than brings them in).
Krayl wrote: »
every expansion pack ever released is pay2win!
Broadly speaking yes, it is. But there is also an acceptable standard I think. They are a company, who makes video games, you have to buy SOMETHING for their enterprise to be successful. Whether that manifests as expansions, in game content, or ad revenue. The issue is the level to which they are being deceptive, to where in order to play competitively for an attainable goal, you are being coerced into putting in more and more money to attain the same goal because the competitive environment necessitates it. At that point it's essentially "juicing" your player base. Coercion is a big problem with every industry, not just gaming, and it is why people take hard-line pro-social stances because given the opportunity, deregulated industry hurts people to make money -- and if you don't view it that way that's fine, but understand the idea that you not realizing it feeds that problem.
With respect to this game, I think they have a pretty solid model in that they expect you to buy "chapters" or "dlc content" which predominantly focuses on pve/story elements. At an itemization level it opens up options, but doesn't make those options mandatory. Summerset was a bit more pay to win than most I think when it added it's skill line, but pretty shortly after release it got toned down. I think that and cranking up paid classes has been the closest p2w flavour... and I mean it is nothing we haven't seen all along like with maelstrom weapons or other new release content. I think it's also reasonable to understand that it is an entertainment industry and they are going to do things to appease shareholders/whoever else.
I think with regard to this patch, you are definitely seeing at least the potential for a marked increase in pay2win angles.Edited by Cathexis on July 9, 2019 12:42AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭Once again pay ty o win is paying for an advantage UNOBTAINABLE by other means that makes you better then those who dont pay. But what do I know idiots now days call everything p2w.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer1 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Elric_Ashborn wrote: »Well currently Stam-Necro are parsing the highest. That is by anyone's definition P2W. As long as this class or the Warden is top it's P2W.
Since they seem to be re-balancing the max food (Bloody Mara) the crown food and drink might parse higher now, my definition of P2W is giving any players with cash ANY in-game advantage. That could be a simply as less time needed to do things, or a set that is superior to others not paying. (I.E Monster Sets)
We are in a very strange time in ESO, inching closer and closer to a more P2W. Gold sellers are another, technically it is possible for a wealthy person IRL to purchase Millions upon millions of gold very easily. This is so prevalent to can go to Auridon right now at any given time as see. You could then in Theory buy ALL the rare and low level gear spiking the price. This is already done with bot/s and mats.
This is not counting the Exp scrolls, mount upgrade, sets, and others.
People with money also get to grab a very expensive race change token - meaning they can change thier builds to parse higher on the turn of a dime. Leaving the others to play catch up which brings me to my final point.
Yes half this thread ALMOST has it right, you can in theory earn most besides the sets and class without paying. What they are not considering is the rate of these changes actually does push this game into the P2W model. These changes are happening so quick, and so frequent that an average non paying player who doesn't visit the forum can't catch up. Giving those that pay a clear advantage. My teenage daughter plays pretty averagely 10~20hrs a week tops. She doesn't simply have the time to enjoy the game and learn her rotations without having to relearn new ones and build a new build. People under that same situation that pay simply do.
I could go on but this is already pretty long. I'm already going to get the planted ZoS employees and drones with the one liners "Nah uh no its not."
Sorry but it is your argument that is pure misdirection. To clarify, to be a strawman argument I have to introduce an argument that the other person has not then tear it down. In all these P2W discussions all I do is challenge those who assert that P2W means only what they say it does, as such I did not introduce a new argument only challenged what the posters have openly declared.
Now if we are calling something P2W, in order to have a valid discussion, we all need to either agree on what it is or a source with authority needs to be used to enforce a standard definition. Otherwise no-one can claim definitively they are right. I do try in my discussions to use a broader more open definition and just point out others can not enforce theirs without an authoritative source or community agreement.
There has been no such common ground on P2WEdited by Skwor on July 9, 2019 12:46AM0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Once again pay ty o win is paying for an advantage UNOBTAINABLE by other means that makes you better then those who dont pay. But what do I know idiots now days call everything p2w.
Here is a perfect example of declaring something above others.
I have a much different definition, why exactly is the above definition correct and others incorrect?
I say P2W is basically paying to get a significant, to include reducing time, in-game advantage regardless of the ability to obtain it in game.
Now anyone explain to me why my definition must be wrong and the other right as opposed to being just two opinions?0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Once again pay ty o win is paying for an advantage UNOBTAINABLE by other means that makes you better then those who dont pay. But what do I know idiots now days call everything p2w.
I would argue that basing the concept on something being unobtainable is flawed since in a competitive playing field you can use pay to win mechanisms that are not unobtainable to maintain an advantage that makes a non-pay to win objective (by that definition) unobtainable.
Hence why it is a colloquialism used to express the idea that there is a player base that wants to win so badly they will pay to do it, rather than play to do it, and this is distasteful to the overarching community because gaming has been prefaced as being an experience for everyone, and that the effort and skill of players has value.
When you can pay to maintain an advantage, it isn't for everyone anymore, and more importantly, it ruins the game, because the goal in question is not a legitimate objective, it becomes relegated to a fraction of players who either have the means or addiction.Edited by Cathexis on July 9, 2019 1:00AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭Pulled my response from another thread... So it will seem a bit out of context.
Seems like a pretty straight forward thing to me.
You have a competitive goal that has some concrete form of attainment (ranking, prize, bragging rights, etc).
You have resources to attain that goal (items, skills, some form of tangible progression).
Those resources can be attained for free at a fixed rate, or more quickly or advantageously at a paid rate.
Ergo: Pay to Win.
Whether or not a thing is pay to win is determined by if it falls within that paradigm.
So if you put in money, and get out winning, its paying to win.
There's no grey area about it, nor is it a self-defined idea.
...and to apply a legislative definition to it set forward by capitalistic enterprise is pretty ridiculous, since the term or expression is loosely used to imply that only people with money get to play competitively. That's like if you took the expression "The pot calling the kettle black" and letting kitchen-aid define it as "You should buy the black kettle to go with your black pot." A pre-existing legal definition is not going to do justice to the actual concept, because it is rooted in accessible game-play and anti-oppressive appropriation of competitive gaming, and capital models are inherently antithetical to that idea (which is pretty much why it rubs players the wrong way, since hardline micro-transactions at a competitive level are a giant FU to competitive players who are being viewed as gaming addiction cash cows, and it pushes players away rather than brings them in).
Krayl wrote: »
every expansion pack ever released is pay2win!
Broadly speaking yes, it is. But there is also an acceptable standard I think. They are a company, who makes video games, you have to buy SOMETHING for their enterprise to be successful. Whether that manifests as expansions, in game content, or ad revenue. The issue is the level to which they are being deceptive, to where in order to play competitively for an attainable goal, you are being coerced into putting in more and more money to attain the same goal because the competitive environment necessitates it. At that point it's essentially "juicing" your player base. Coercion is a big problem with every industry, not just gaming, and it is why people take hard-line pro-social stances because given the opportunity, deregulated industry hurts people to make money -- and if you don't view it that way that's fine, but understand the idea that you not realizing it feeds that problem.
With respect to this game, I think they have a pretty solid model in that they expect you to buy "chapters" or "dlc content" which predominantly focuses on pve/story elements. At an itemization level it opens up options, but doesn't make those options mandatory. Summerset was a bit more pay to win than most I think when it added it's skill line, but pretty shortly after release it got toned down. I think that and cranking up paid classes has been the closest p2w flavour... and I mean it is nothing we haven't seen all along like with maelstrom weapons or other new release content. I think it's also reasonable to understand that it is an entertainment industry and they are going to do things to appease shareholders/whoever else.
I think with regard to this patch, you are definitely seeing at least the potential for a marked increase in pay2win angles.
Interesting, so objectively speaking (this goes for the comment below yours to.) You justify it based on verbiage used?
So running with that let's do a controlled test, and extremes - to see if your description holds up. If they released a DLC called Ice something kingdom where players would get a set that immediately hit 10 Trillion DPS a second but at the very affordable price of $40. Lets throw in 8hrs of story just to make it not look to obvious. wouldn't that be the pure definition of the typical P2W strategy? Under your rules no, because it's called a DLC. See the fail in this logic?
The sets -do- provide an advantage. The classes -do- provide an advantage. (they are parsing the highest right now) That is not to touch the typical grey area things that people with money have.Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 9, 2019 12:57AM0 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Once again pay ty o win is paying for an advantage UNOBTAINABLE by other means that makes you better then those who dont pay. But what do I know idiots now days call everything p2w.
I would argue that basing the concept on something being unobtainable is flawed since in a competitive playing field if you can use pay to win mechanisms that are not unobtainable to maintain an advantage that makes a non-pay to win objective (by that definition) unobtainable.
Hence why it is a colloquialism used to express the idea that there is a player base that wants to win so badly they will pay to do it, rather than play to do it, and this is distasteful to the overarching community because gaming has been prefaced as being an experience for everyone.
Careful brandishing such logical reasoning around here tends to upset the rigid P2W only applies to “items not available in game” crowd.
I have avoided the more erudite arguments on the subject as they seem to spawn ridicule, likely from a lack of understanding.Edited by Skwor on July 9, 2019 1:01AM0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elric_Ashborn wrote: »Pulled my response from another thread... So it will seem a bit out of context.
Seems like a pretty straight forward thing to me.
You have a competitive goal that has some concrete form of attainment (ranking, prize, bragging rights, etc).
You have resources to attain that goal (items, skills, some form of tangible progression).
Those resources can be attained for free at a fixed rate, or more quickly or advantageously at a paid rate.
Ergo: Pay to Win.
Whether or not a thing is pay to win is determined by if it falls within that paradigm.
So if you put in money, and get out winning, its paying to win.
There's no grey area about it, nor is it a self-defined idea.
...and to apply a legislative definition to it set forward by capitalistic enterprise is pretty ridiculous, since the term or expression is loosely used to imply that only people with money get to play competitively. That's like if you took the expression "The pot calling the kettle black" and letting kitchen-aid define it as "You should buy the black kettle to go with your black pot." A pre-existing legal definition is not going to do justice to the actual concept, because it is rooted in accessible game-play and anti-oppressive appropriation of competitive gaming, and capital models are inherently antithetical to that idea (which is pretty much why it rubs players the wrong way, since hardline micro-transactions at a competitive level are a giant FU to competitive players who are being viewed as gaming addiction cash cows, and it pushes players away rather than brings them in).
Krayl wrote: »
every expansion pack ever released is pay2win!
Broadly speaking yes, it is. But there is also an acceptable standard I think. They are a company, who makes video games, you have to buy SOMETHING for their enterprise to be successful. Whether that manifests as expansions, in game content, or ad revenue. The issue is the level to which they are being deceptive, to where in order to play competitively for an attainable goal, you are being coerced into putting in more and more money to attain the same goal because the competitive environment necessitates it. At that point it's essentially "juicing" your player base. Coercion is a big problem with every industry, not just gaming, and it is why people take hard-line pro-social stances because given the opportunity, deregulated industry hurts people to make money -- and if you don't view it that way that's fine, but understand the idea that you not realizing it feeds that problem.
With respect to this game, I think they have a pretty solid model in that they expect you to buy "chapters" or "dlc content" which predominantly focuses on pve/story elements. At an itemization level it opens up options, but doesn't make those options mandatory. Summerset was a bit more pay to win than most I think when it added it's skill line, but pretty shortly after release it got toned down. I think that and cranking up paid classes has been the closest p2w flavour... and I mean it is nothing we haven't seen all along like with maelstrom weapons or other new release content. I think it's also reasonable to understand that it is an entertainment industry and they are going to do things to appease shareholders/whoever else.
I think with regard to this patch, you are definitely seeing at least the potential for a marked increase in pay2win angles.
Interesting, so objectively speaking (this goes for the comment below yours to.) You justify it based on verbiage used?
So running with that let's do a controlled test, and extremes - to see if your description holds up. If they released a DLC called Ice something kingdom where players would get a set that immediately hit 10 Trillion DPS a second but at the very affordable price of $40. Lets throw in 8hrs of story just to make it not look to obvious. wouldn't that be the pure definition of the typical P2W strategy? Under your rules no, because it's called a DLC. See the fail in this logic?
The sets -do- provide an advantage. The classes -do- provide an advantage. (they are parsing the highest right now) That is not to touch the typical grey area things that people with money have.
No it would be pay to win, under my logic it is still pay to win, but that's obviously an unacceptable degree. In this instance you are forced to pay $40 for an entirely disproportionate advantage to the rest of the available content. By a very significant degree. I think you misunderstand my post, because I pointed out that a dlc is still pay to win, but that a certain degree of paying is fundamentally necessary, and that most pay elements affecting win elements are proportional to their non-paying counterparts (not all).
They are a company, they have a model that is designed to entice you to spend money. So if you are being enticed with a 10 trillion dps set over your current 1 trillion maximum in your available options, now you are being forced to buy an expansion to remain competitive with other players in any area that requires dps. The key point in this instance is you are being forced to spend money to be competitive.
My point with respect to this game is that the model they use for pay puts a very heavy emphasis on elements that don't affect formal competitive player arenas as much, and that in areas like gear for example you are paying to unlock options more so than because you are forced. Obviously not always, but there seems to be a sustained effort and that is good.Edited by Cathexis on July 9, 2019 1:15AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭@Cathexis
Very interesting, and what do you personally find an unacceptable degree? What number do you have? Is 5 Trillion? what about 2 Trillion?
See the slippery slope? That is why it's P2W. Unless you can definitively say without a shadow of a doubt that both the classes and the sets are worse then what the base game has, this game falls under P2W. Quite frankly you can't, neither can @Skwor.
It's actually you two and others that need to come to terms with it.0 -
Cathexis✭✭✭✭✭
✭Elric_Ashborn wrote: »@Cathexis
Very interesting, and what do you personally find an unacceptable degree? What number do you have? Is 5 Trillion? what about 2 Trillion?
See the slippery slope? That is why it's P2W. Unless you can definitively say without a shadow of a doubt that both the classes and the sets are worse then what the base game has, this game falls under P2W. Quite frankly you can't, neither can @Skwor.
It's actually you two and others that need to come to terms with it.
I don't think you are reading my posts, I said technically yes, under definition it is pay to win. Being pay to win is fundamentally inherent to any game that charges you money by a literal definition. But I think it manages that fairly well, you can play competitively with the base game and fare well in formal competitive arenas. The unacceptable degree occurs when that doesn't happen, and it is a grey area for a lot of reasons. Right now in it's release state the game's pay elements are largely an issue of build diversity, enough that most imbalances I would chalk up to balance substantively more than pay to win.
This patch however, I couldn't say for certain. It looks like it is putting an uptick in the pay to win factors.
I think you are assuming my definitions of pay to win in ways that I'm not describing, and it is by definition a slippery slope, and not a black and white determinate.
My point is that the expression pay to win is not by definition for a reason, that it is a colloquialism to express discontent about pay gated content that pushes away players who either don't have the means or perceive the investment as (typically correctly) a rip off.Edited by Cathexis on July 9, 2019 1:30AMTome of Alteration Magic I - Reality is an Ancient Dwemer Construct: Everything You Need to Know About FPS
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Attackfrog✭✭✭Attackfrog wrote: »Is there a way to pay to win the forums?
The only way to win the forums is to get banned, not sure if mods take bribes for that sort of thing.
Dang, I am failing. And here I thought I was rolling end game content by posting!
Wish they would put something in the crown store that would boost my rating or get me insta-banned."You can have fun or you can have safety, but you can't have them both"
-A ten-year-old0 -
Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭...oh and just to clear things up, yes I know you agree that it's pay to win under an "acceptable" degree of tolerance. But that is a personal interpretation, and a very slippery slope. What is acceptable you you may not be others. 10 Trillion might be acceptable to some crazies.
You cannot leave this up to personal interpretation.Edited by Elric_Ashborn on July 9, 2019 1:38AM0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Skyshards and the skill line can be P2W if we are talking about under-50 PvP as it is possible that there can be builds you can get with paying that you can't just playing the game. Mostly we are talking about having the ability to have all passives beneficial to your build in combat.
But for cp160+, doesn't matter.0 -
Elric_Ashborn✭✭✭DaveMoeDee wrote: »Skyshards and the skill line can be P2W if we are talking about under-50 PvP as it is possible that there can be builds you can get with paying that you can't just playing the game. Mostly we are talking about having the ability to have all passives beneficial to your build in combat.
But for cp160+, doesn't matter.
No, no it's not. They put the work in to find them in the first place. Also, a low level character -can-find them again.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmjYJy5CIM4