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Rational thoughts about One Hand/Shield changes...

Cortimi
Cortimi
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First, I understand the intent. There are a few builds using 1h/s that are brilliant in PvP. When these builds kill someone who doesn't understand how to counter it (dev as well as player), they go to the forums and ask for nerfs. I get it.

Here is the problem though, as implemented: it isn't going to work, and the changes illustrate a lack of understanding of how and why these builds exist.

Let's take it on a class by class basis. It is safe to assume that the largest users of 1h/s PvP builds are DKs, followed by Sorcs. I have seen other classes on the rare occasion, but those are the main two.

Let's step a second. Those are the two classes that have a dire lack of Stam based attacks. So they are pushed to using weapon lines. That leaves Snipe, Dizzying, Flurry, and Heroic Slash.

Of those, Snipe and Dizzying Swing are used the most, by far, as a "spammable" attack. Very few builds I know of use heroic slash as a MAIN spammable. I happen to be one of them, but I have only met a handful of others.

So Heroic Slash is what's known as a utility skill. And these current latch notes even designate it as such, which is fine. This allows the devs to break their own "standards" and nerf it.

Which begs the question, why bother nerfing a utility skill if it is utilized at a far lesser rate than other skills that also provide great utility, such as stuns and other status effects? Theogic starts to fall apart.

So with DKs and Sorcs, 1h/s is t being used because it is over performing, it is used because the tools available are UNDER performing.

So DKs are still going to front bar a 2H and utilize the newly buffed Dizzying. And they are STILL going to have 1h/s on the back bar for utility. The nerf to that damage is going to be inconsequential. The same people that died to these builds are still going to die to these builds, possibly even faster, as the buff to 2h might actually more than make up for the nerf to 1h/s.

All this is doing is further forcing a meta.

What SHOULD be done, is looking at the options available, and fixing/creating something that is more attractive than a weapon meta.

The 1h/s change isn't going to affect stamplars, as a stamplar that uses it isn't spamming heroic or piercings, they are jabbing.

The 1h/s changes isn't going to affect wardens, necromancers, or nightblades, as NOT running 1h/s is by far more beneficial to those classes in most cases.

That leaves DKs and Sorcs. Who of course, are simply going to utilize a buffed attack (Snipe and Dizzying) while still using 1h/s utility.

TL;DR - nerfs aren't the answer, buff sDK/sSorc class skills to provide an actual alternative to running 1h/s.

Xbox NA: Soviet Messiah
EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
EP: Melga - Orc StamDen (Dah Bear)
EP: Narileya - Nord StamPlar (Mad cuz Bad)
EP: Corvaera - Bosmer Orc StamSorc (RIP)

PS4 NA (Retired at CP835): Soviet-Messiah:
EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
DC: Melga gra-Antilae - StamDen
AD: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorc
Urvoth wrote: »
CP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.
  • templesus
    templesus
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    You realize deep slash is only like 1k less TT then heroic on live right? And is AOE minor maim + that same damage?
  • Cortimi
    Cortimi
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    templesus wrote: »
    You realize deep slash is only like 1k less TT then heroic on live right? And is AOE minor maim + that same damage?

    I think you completely missed the point.
    Xbox NA: Soviet Messiah
    EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
    EP: Melga - Orc StamDen (Dah Bear)
    EP: Narileya - Nord StamPlar (Mad cuz Bad)
    EP: Corvaera - Bosmer Orc StamSorc (RIP)

    PS4 NA (Retired at CP835): Soviet-Messiah:
    EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
    DC: Melga gra-Antilae - StamDen
    AD: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorc
    Urvoth wrote: »
    CP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.
  • TheRealSniker
    TheRealSniker
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    Your rationalization of the changes make no sense, youre out of touch with the PvP Meta/community.
    SnB has not only been used by characters who were constantly using the abilities, but also by magicka characters like Templars, DKs, Wardens and majority of good Sorcerers too cause of the defensive side of things. Making SnB a requirement for 9/10 PvP builds.
    SnB abilities were overloaded such as Heroic Slash, Puncture and Reverb. SnB as a weapon skill line provided a lot of defense as well as a much better offense in comparison to its DW or 2H counterparts for stamina toons in form of an amazing spammable, best stun in the game, Bashes on steroids, 5% more wep dmg and usually an extra glyph.
    All of this made SnB not an option for a pvp build but 9/10 times a requirement.

    The changes are good and well thought out pushing SnB into the niche its supposed to stay in, and thats a defensive backbar option with lots of debuffs.

    Edited by TheRealSniker on July 12, 2019 8:00PM
  • Cortimi
    Cortimi
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    Your rationalization of the changes make no sense, youre out of touch with the PvP Meta/community.
    SnB has not only been used by characters who were constantly using the abilities, but also by magicka characters like Templars, DKs, Wardens and majority of good Sorcerers too cause of the defensive side of things. Making SnB a requirement for 9/10 PvP builds.
    SnB abilities were overloaded such as Heroic Slash, Puncture and Reverb. SnB as a weapon skill line provided a lot of defense as well as a much better offense in comparison to its DW or 2H counterparts for stamina toons in form of an amazing spammable, best stun in the game, Bashes on steroids, 5% more wep dmg and usually an extra glyph.
    All of this made SnB not an option for a pvp build but 9/10 times a requirement.

    The changes are good and well thought out pushing SnB into the niche its supposed to stay in, and thats a defensive backbar option with lots of debuffs.

    Yeah, you must only do a very niche form of CP PvP, as I do about a dozen BGs a day with multiple toons and see a mag toon with a 1h/s maybe once a month, and they perform poorly. 9/10 of people using it is a downright silly exaggeration when it's a very rare sight in no-CP sewers/Cyro/BGs.

    If it was such a REQUIREMENT, building as tanky as possible, as you say it is, wouldn't that make DPS sets the problem?

    You also used my exact point as an attempt to argue. I literally said that most people run it as a back bar anyways, and that nerfing it isn't going to change anything.

    You entire response was furthering my point: other things are underperforming.

    Edited by Cortimi on July 12, 2019 8:10PM
    Xbox NA: Soviet Messiah
    EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
    EP: Melga - Orc StamDen (Dah Bear)
    EP: Narileya - Nord StamPlar (Mad cuz Bad)
    EP: Corvaera - Bosmer Orc StamSorc (RIP)

    PS4 NA (Retired at CP835): Soviet-Messiah:
    EP: Cortimi - Imperial StamDK
    DC: Melga gra-Antilae - StamDen
    AD: Corvaera - Bosmer StamSorc
    Urvoth wrote: »
    CP is a crutch for people who can’t sustain and want to be "tanky" so they aren’t immediately punished for making mistakes.
  • Strider__Roshin
    Strider__Roshin
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    A few builds? As in every stamina build and half of magicka? Yeah to say SnB was over performing would be an understatement.
  • grannas211
    grannas211
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    Cortimi wrote: »
    Your rationalization of the changes make no sense, youre out of touch with the PvP Meta/community.
    SnB has not only been used by characters who were constantly using the abilities, but also by magicka characters like Templars, DKs, Wardens and majority of good Sorcerers too cause of the defensive side of things. Making SnB a requirement for 9/10 PvP builds.
    SnB abilities were overloaded such as Heroic Slash, Puncture and Reverb. SnB as a weapon skill line provided a lot of defense as well as a much better offense in comparison to its DW or 2H counterparts for stamina toons in form of an amazing spammable, best stun in the game, Bashes on steroids, 5% more wep dmg and usually an extra glyph.
    All of this made SnB not an option for a pvp build but 9/10 times a requirement.

    The changes are good and well thought out pushing SnB into the niche its supposed to stay in, and thats a defensive backbar option with lots of debuffs.

    Yeah, you must only do a very niche form of CP PvP, as I do about a dozen BGs a day with multiple toons and see a mag toon with a 1h/s maybe once a month, and they perform poorly. 9/10 of people using it is a downright silly exaggeration when it's a very rare sight in no-CP sewers/Cyro/BGs.

    If it was such a REQUIREMENT, building as tanky as possible, as you say it is, wouldn't that make DPS sets the problem?

    You also used my exact point as an attempt to argue. I literally said that most people run it as a back bar anyways, and that nerfing it isn't going to change anything.

    You entire response was furthering my point: other things are underperforming.

    Actually my guy, it’s you doing the very niche PvP.
  • ATomiX69
    ATomiX69
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    Daus wrote: »
    A few builds? As in every stamina build and half of magicka? Yeah to say SnB was over performing would be an understatement.

    You know what, for the first time in my life I gotta agree with one of your statements.
    smurf account
    New PvP content when?
    Better cyro performance when?
    Farmed about 3 GO's worth of AP
    world 3rd immortal redeemer (22.02.18) and other not noteworthy trifectas
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