The reason why server performance is bad and a way to adress it

Delparis · July 2019

imo the server got this bad performance because all the calculation responsable for the lag and frame rate drop are made server side. Those calculations are liked to:

many skills have multiple effects (dmg, buffs, debuffs) which make the calculation more complicated and time consuming
skills don't have a long enough global cooldown to prevent too much ping a request to the server
animation cancelling with LA weaving is increasing the stress on servers
there is too many buffs and debuffs available and they are splitted into major and minor buffs
objects, containers and npc are dynamic so the server has to tell the client were they are (npc) and what they are and what they content (objects and container)

to name a few..

i really think Zenimax devs should have a look on those points and improve them instead of putting more ressources in hardware.
a way to adress those issues is as follow:

Make skills have only 1 dmg, heal or buff effect
Increase the global cooldown to skills to 1 sec and make LA share the same global cooldown (clunky combat maybe but at least you don't play on a slideshow)
remove the animation cancelling on LA as they share the same gcd with skills
standerdize buffs and debuffs, no more minor and major one (less factors for the calculation), and make some of those buffs and debuffs available through foods, drinks and potions
npc position should be known from the client rather than the server so less useless informations transiting, the same thing for objects
container should have an RNG tool when interacting with it, so the server won't have to comunicate to the client what they contain. also since rng players will be able to interact with the same container and get different loot depending on their rng. each container have 1 loot.

hope this can help you Zenimax devs

Xerikten · July 2019

you forgot addons.

Delparis · July 2019

Xerikten wrote: »

you forgot addons.

addons depends on the skill of who made them, if the code is clean there shouldn't be any issues
however if the code is bad you should expect issues yes

Nairinhe · July 2019

Move calculations to client, aaand... Cheaters, cheaters everywhere.

Delparis · July 2019

don't forget that consol player got the same server issues but they don't/can't use addons

Delparis · July 2019

Nairinhe wrote: »

Move calculations to client, aaand... Cheaters, cheaters everywhere.

maybe but cheaters can't have that huge impact as they do things in a way that canno't be seen normaly

also cheaters are not that many on Pc and especially on consols

Knightpanther · July 2019

Trust me its addons, I never use them and I only ever experience bad server performance in Cyrodiil, and that is pretty rare for me.

Be safe

BrooksP · July 2019

I doubt any of these are the issue as most of these could be simply solved by hardware upgrades. If I had to guess the issue probably stems back to the revamp and the rushed scaling/phasing systems which have only compounded since. They keep adding onto a weak foundation

While they won't do it, but probably the best thing for them to do is to freeze all content updates and clean and restructure their backend.

E: Addons have no overall impact since they are almost completely client side.

ArenGesus · July 2019

So, basically you'd like for them to make the game super slow and basically suck instead of invest in hardware capable of running a good game. Seems legit. But no worries, because they aren't going to do either of those things.

Delparis · July 2019

ArenGesus wrote: »

So, basically you'd like for them to make the game super slow and basically suck instead of invest in hardware capable of running a good game. Seems legit. But no worries, because they aren't going to do either of those things.

Upgrading hardware cost money so I don't expect them to spend any penny on it.
However the calculation on the server side can be improved which will make the game tuns better.
Did anybody notice that when starting a trial before boss pull you got like +60 fps and 70 ms and the moment the fight starts you drop to 30 fps and the ping get higher? That's the server struggling to do all 12 players calculations.

BrooksP · July 2019

If it was simply server side calculations then you shouldn't see FPS drops, unless they have latency and FPS linked.

Wolfpaw · July 2019

Delparis wrote: »

imo the server got this bad performance because all the calculation responsable for the lag and frame rate drop are made server side. Those calculations are liked to:
many skills have multiple effects (dmg, buffs, debuffs) which make the calculation more complicated and time consuming

skills don't have a long enough global cooldown to prevent too much ping a request to the server

animation cancelling with LA weaving is increasing the stress on servers

there is too many buffs and debuffs available and they are splitted into major and minor buffs

objects, containers and npc are dynamic so the server has to tell the client were they are (npc) and what they are and what they content (objects and container)

to name a few..

i really think Zenimax devs should have a look on those points and improve them instead of putting more ressources in hardware.
a way to adress those issues is as follow:
Make skills have only 1 dmg, heal or buff effect

Increase the global cooldown to skills to 1 sec and make LA share the same global cooldown (clunky combat maybe but at least you don't play on a slideshow)

remove the animation cancelling on LA as they share the same gcd with skills

standerdize buffs and debuffs, no more minor and major one (less factors for the calculation), and make some of those buffs and debuffs available through foods, drinks and potions

npc position should be known from the client rather than the server so less useless informations transiting, the same thing for objects

container should have an RNG tool when interacting with it, so the server won't have to comunicate to the client what they contain. also since rng players will be able to interact with the same container and get different loot depending on their rng. each container have 1 loot.

hope this can help you Zenimax devs

Good post, I hope this coming "balance" pass is just one of many that begin to adjust combat for performance.

Maxx7410 · July 2019

IF they make any change like that i wont be the only one to leave the game. One of the best things in the game is how the combat works it requires skill and work to be good and that should not be changed at all.

Reverb · July 2019

Knightpanther wrote: »

Trust me its addons, I never use them and I only ever experience bad server performance in Cyrodiil, and that is pretty rare for me.

Be safe

Console players have the same issues with lag, frame rate drops, looong load screens, and session disconnects. And they don’t have addons.

KappaKid83 · July 2019

Delparis wrote: »

Nairinhe wrote: »

Move calculations to client, aaand... Cheaters, cheaters everywhere.

maybe but cheaters can't have that huge impact as they do things in a way that canno't be seen normaly

also cheaters are not that many on Pc and especially on consols

You are correct that Consoles have exponentially less cheaters, and that simply is because of addons. Do you remember seeing the videos from a few years back where some guilds were running cheat engine and being able to endless spam Meteor/Ice Comet? If you do not look them up. Basically it allowed them to endless generate/never use ultimate charge and spam Meteor after Meteor after Meteor, it was not fun and they were definitely banned. The ban was short lived and they came back 1-2 weeks later but they were definitely banned. That would have all been client side, so if you would like to go back to that, please do some digging about it and see what the end results were.

ArenGesus · July 2019

Delparis wrote: »

ArenGesus wrote: »

So, basically you'd like for them to make the game super slow and basically suck instead of invest in hardware capable of running a good game. Seems legit. But no worries, because they aren't going to do either of those things.

Upgrading hardware cost money so I don't expect them to spend any penny on it.
However the calculation on the server side can be improved which will make the game tuns better.
Did anybody notice that when starting a trial before boss pull you got like +60 fps and 70 ms and the moment the fight starts you drop to 30 fps and the ping get higher? That's the server struggling to do all 12 players calculations.

I don't expect them to spend money on it either, but slowing combat isn't the solution. That would fundamentally change the game play, to the degree that it wouldn't be the same game. That's a nah from me.

John_Falstaff · July 2019

I think you're a bit late with your suggestions, ZOS have found an efficient way to reduce the server lag with the new update. ^^

1. Nerf everyone with prejudice, force healers out of dungeons, make them work harder in trials.
2. Ignore glaring, game-breaking bugs for long time, let people know that their silly dungeons and trials can wait for another six weeks before they'll fix stuff.
3. Half the disgruntled players leave, reducing the server load.
4. ...
5. Profit!

No-brainer, really. ^^

KappaKid83 · July 2019

John_Falstaff wrote: »

I think you're a bit late with your suggestions, ZOS have found an efficient way to reduce the server lag with the new update. ^^

1. Nerf everyone with prejudice, force healers out of dungeons, make them work harder in trials.
2. Ignore glaring, game-breaking bugs for long time, let people know that their silly dungeons and trials can wait for another six weeks before they'll fix stuff.
3. Half the disgruntled players leave, reducing the server load.
4. ...
5. Profit!

No-brainer, really. ^^

This seems to be the strategy they are going with. I am currently dealing with a Better Business Bureau complaint against them and have taken my MMO business elsewhere. I am still active on the forums though and I want people to realize that the community deserves a game that is released fully functional and without glitches that "Can't be fixed" for 6 or more weeks at a time.

No other game out there seemingly has that issue. Example, if something isn't working as intended in FF14 or WoW and it is reported, it will be looked at and fixed the next maintenance(and since WoW can do that in the background now it is a pretty short period of time.) The only response we ever get is "It is being looked and a working on a fix". That goes on for weeks or months and it is a slap in the face to everyone who thought they were buying a functioning product that was fully completed on release when really we are getting a version of the game that is basically a Beta Version still 5 years on from release.

Edit; Paragraphs

Wolfpaw · July 2019

Maxx7410 wrote: »

IF they make any change like that i wont be the only one to leave the game. One of the best things in the game is how the combat works it requires skill and work to be good and that should not be changed at all.

Many will leave
Many will come back
Many look forward to the changes & stay
New players will hardly know the difference

ESO no more/less skill to play....just muscle memory & how fast you can jumble multiple components of combat together before your opponent can see or react.

rfennell_ESO · July 2019

People always want everything.

They want the lag and instability fixed, but they don't want anything changed.

The two are mutually exclusive. You aren't getting both.

People have even forgotten or weren't around when Havoc was intentionally crippling servers by sitting at an out of the way spot and just spamming everything. Others replicated this as well... that's when ZOS had to make some changes to los and aoe interaction.

Point being... the spamming of abilities and conjunction of multiple effects on top of animation cancelling barrages do effect gameplay for everyone. There is a reason when "elite" pvpers show up there is a lag effect of them just being there. Their pro-spam (which is likely macro induced to be honest) will impact your gameplay.

You either want performance improved or you want to continue to impact it negatively.

Donny_Vito · July 2019

Delparis wrote: »

Xerikten wrote: »

you forgot addons.

addons depends on the skill of who made them, if the code is clean there shouldn't be any issues
however if the code is bad you should expect issues yes

Not necessarily true. Many factors into the API calls, not just the architecture of the add-on.

rfennell_ESO · July 2019

Donny_Vito wrote: »

Delparis wrote: »

Xerikten wrote: »

you forgot addons.

addons depends on the skill of who made them, if the code is clean there shouldn't be any issues
however if the code is bad you should expect issues yes

Not necessarily true. Many factors into the API calls, not just the architecture of the add-on.

Then there are some addons that a certain player to not be named is paid $ to write for personal use that are intended to impact performance of everyone.

redlink1979 · July 2019

It's all related to how the servers handle the data, that's was my thought for some time now.
You just detailed some situations that might make servers struggle due to the amount of players and data related.
Maybe/Most lightly the amount of players expected to be on servers has always been miscalculated by ZOS.
Servers capacity needs to be improved and performance must be addressed, you can't dodge that much longer: the game is worst than ever before.

Your suggestions to "fix" this are not the best available option... ZOS really needs to invest in a REAL hardware upgrade, besides the performance fix as well.

redlink1979 · July 2019

Xerikten wrote: »

you forgot addons.

Reminder to those who might think addons have any influence:

We don't have addons on consoles and yet the dedicated servers performance is worst than ever before.

Kr3do · July 2019

Some of these suggestions are so horrible and short sighted that i can't tell if this is a troll post or not.

Tyreal1974 · July 2019

Delparis wrote: »

[*] remove the animation cancelling on LA as they share the same gcd with skills

Unfortunately ZOS decided to call animation cancelling a feature after they could not get this fixed a few years ago.

Also, I have seen more issues with lag recently (over the past several months) myself and turning on/off addons does not change the symptoms. Some of the recent posts pointing out the bottleneck being at Akamai seem to make the most sense to me since ESO is the only software I have these lag issues with.

Maxx7410 · July 2019

Maybe you are having problems with your connections (what server use your provider) i dont have problems with much lag my game is working fine and for almost all is this way (oceania not counting, they problem is the server path)

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

Maxx7410 wrote: »

Maybe you are having problems with your connections (what server use your provider) i dont have problems with much lag my game is working fine and for almost all is this way (oceania not counting, they problem is the server path)

Yep, 75% of forum members have bad internet in 2019.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484814/server-performance-report-card

OP, your suggestions are awful, the first day each skill will have 1 second delay, this game group content and PVP will be dead. Not sure about questers, but as far as I know nobody wants to wait:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484787/do-you-like-cast-times

Maxx7410 · July 2019

Forum is in general negative, no so much in game i know some new players and all like a lot the game, they dont come here
to criticize, because they are fine with it. (I'm not saying that the game hasnt have problems, just that this forum doesnt represent the reality and all the perceptions

Delparis · July 2019

Guys you won't have the butter and the money for the butter. sometimes we have to chose the best solution.
I agree that 1 sec gcd for skills and LA is bad, but if everyone is spamming thing fast the server won't be able to hundle things well. that's why we have all those issues.

do you prefer:

LA weaving + Skill under 0.5 sec with 20 fps and 300 ms in cyrodiil zerg fights which turn the game more like a slideshow ? or
LA + skill in 2 sec with 60 fps and 50 ms in zerg fights ?

i'm sorry but when the game isn't smooth you can't even cast your weaving and your skill under 2 sec, so why making thing more painful for everyone.

Stop being selfish please

Maxx7410 · July 2019

*** the ping is mostly by distance than anything else. My ping from my location to texas is 170/180 my in game is 210/240 you cant reduce much more(anyone that have ping 200+ and is close to the servers has a long route to them and that is their problem AND it is easy to solve. (no counting people with very very very bad connection i recomend playing a game no server dependent))