Engulfing flames op

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

To start off im talking about engulfing flames from a pve tank perspective. Engulfing flames currently offers a unique debuff making the target receive 10% more flame damage from the entire group.
Unlike other debuffs this one can only be applied by a dk and no other sources. In my opinion this gives dk tanks an unfair group utility advantage over other class tanks in end game groups running trials. Other classes have specific named debuffs that dont stack but have many ways to get them. Sure a templar running power of the light gives minor fracture and breach but its not the ONLY source of those debuffs.
Right now necromancer is the only class that can provide major vulnerability but that is with an ultimate.
Warden is the only source of minor toughness for the group. Toughness is a very useful ability but health can be gained from many sources.
The dragon knight engulfing flames ability is not an ultimate that is accessible sometimes and is a direct damage buff for the group unlike minor toughness. In my opinion for better game balance this ability should be changed to only affect the user of the ability not the entire group. This change would put all tanks on an even playing field rather than groups requiring a dk tank because if they dont have engulfing flames on the boss at all times the group misses out on 10% flame damage.
For some perspective before people say 10% is not a lot..
Major fracture/breach is a 5280 armor debuff.
5280 armor reduction =8% more damage for the whole group.
Engulfing flames offers 10% more flame damage for the entire group and is only attainable from 1 source.
Again im not asking for the ability to be nerfed for dk dps, if anything it should be buffed. But for the sake of fairness it should only apply to the caster if it remains a unique debuff like it currently is. If it needs to remain a debuff that the whole group can benefit from then i suggest it be changed to major breach instead. Even if it was changed to offer major AND minor breach it still wouldn't be as unfair as it currently is because both versions of breach can come from multiple sources allowing one to still apply those debuffs to the target.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

Another option:
If engulfing flames was changed to some named debuff like major flame weakness or something like that and that same debuff was made available from some other source i would be ok with it. Maybe the other morph of elemental drain could be changed to allow it to apply the same debuff as engulfing flames. To me that morph could use a good buff and it fits well with the theme being applying a debuff to make the target more weak to the elements..

redspecter23 · July 2019

If I were to change it, I'd go with giving it a named debuff. After that, you can add it to a few other sources. It may be easiest to use on a DK but having it as a 5pc set bonus or maybe as a slightly clunkier widely available skill (a morph of a mages guild or fighter's guild ability maybe) could make it slightly more available.

What isn't considered is that you don't necessarily need to cast it from a tank. Any DK can bring this bonus and I would argue that if you don't have a DK tank for whatever reason, it would be very beneficial to the group if one of the DK magicka dps slot it even if it means their personal dps drops slightly. It's not a tank exclusive ability even if it does fit that role well.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Disagree. As much as I would like to have this debuff in my trial groups for the extra ~3% damage on my Sorc and ~4% on my Templar, the current meta is to have a Nightblade main tank in Sunspire (and other trials). Nightblades are tougher than DK’s this patch, have better self-healing, and provide Minor Savagery for the Stam Necros.

Any change to Engulfing Flames would also hurt MagDK DPS, which is already in a bad spot. At least they have this utility at the moment, take that away and they’ll be the weakest melee DPS AND bring nothing unique to the group.

A better way to handle this, would be to create a set that gives the same debuff. This would work much like Sunderflame, which can be used to replace Power of the Light if a Templar is not in group. You maintain access to an important buff, but with the cost of one group member giving up a 5pc set bonus. I’d also like to see sets like this added for other damage types (10% more Magic, Physical, and Lightning would all be great), it already exists for Poison damage with the Morag Tong set.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

So basically it should be changed to a named buff like spell power cure was after they introduced olorime to prevent them from stacking.
Do you guys think the other morph of elemental drain should be chosen to also apply this debuff?

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

So basically it should be changed to a named buff like spell power cure was after they introduced olorime to prevent them from stacking.
Do you guys think the other morph of elemental drain should be chosen to also apply this debuff?

That could work.

MartiniDaniels · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Disagree. As much as I would like to have this debuff in my trial groups for the extra ~3% damage on my Sorc and ~4% on my Templar, the current meta is to have a Nightblade main tank in Sunspire (and other trials). Nightblades are tougher than DK’s this patch, have better self-healing, and provide Minor Savagery for the Stam Necros.

Any change to Engulfing Flames would also hurt MagDK DPS, which is already in a bad spot. At least they have this utility at the moment, take that away and they’ll be the weakest melee DPS AND bring nothing unique to the group.

A better way to handle this, would be to create a set that gives the same debuff. This would work much like Sunderflame, which can be used to replace Power of the Light if a Templar is not in group. You maintain access to an important buff, but with the cost of one group member giving up a 5pc set bonus. I’d also like to see sets like this added for other damage types (10% more Magic, Physical, and Lightning would all be great), it already exists for Poison damage with the Morag Tong set.

Looking at patch notes I see DK tanking is buffed again:
1. silver leash nerfed, chains which were superior now even more superior
2. DK didn't have access to minor protection, now we have it with somebody using ring of preservation. DK may use turn undead instead of claws too as cc (when stamina sustain is not stretched), or both when mob control is priority
3. GDB active+Fragmenting into new vigor will solve issues with healing on >50% HP.
4. For hard hitting situations new immovable provides means for 25% more mitigation. Yep it's only 6 seconds (tooltip shows 4, but it's 6), but still this is option for some encounters

So basically all that secondary moments in which DK was weaker can be now addressed.

And I agree on unique buffs for other classes ofc.

Krayl · July 2019

"Hi I'd like you to change one of the cool unique skills tanks get to use that only benefits the mag DPS in their group but does so effectively without being overpowers yes I'll hold thank you"

Xvorg · July 2019

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

To start off im talking about engulfing flames from a pve tank perspective. Engulfing flames currently offers a unique debuff making the target receive 10% more flame damage from the entire group.
Unlike other debuffs this one can only be applied by a dk and no other sources. In my opinion this gives dk tanks an unfair group utility advantage over other class tanks in end game groups running trials. Other classes have specific named debuffs that dont stack but have many ways to get them. Sure a templar running power of the light gives minor fracture and breach but its not the ONLY source of those debuffs.
Right now necromancer is the only class that can provide major vulnerability but that is with an ultimate.
Warden is the only source of minor toughness for the group. Toughness is a very useful ability but health can be gained from many sources.
The dragon knight engulfing flames ability is not an ultimate that is accessible sometimes and is a direct damage buff for the group unlike minor toughness. In my opinion for better game balance this ability should be changed to only affect the user of the ability not the entire group. This change would put all tanks on an even playing field rather than groups requiring a dk tank because if they dont have engulfing flames on the boss at all times the group misses out on 10% flame damage.
For some perspective before people say 10% is not a lot..
Major fracture/breach is a 5280 armor debuff.
5280 armor reduction =8% more damage for the whole group.
Engulfing flames offers 10% more flame damage for the entire group and is only attainable from 1 source.
Again im not asking for the ability to be nerfed for dk dps, if anything it should be buffed. But for the sake of fairness it should only apply to the caster if it remains a unique debuff like it currently is. If it needs to remain a debuff that the whole group can benefit from then i suggest it be changed to major breach instead. Even if it was changed to offer major AND minor breach it still wouldn't be as unfair as it currently is because both versions of breach can come from multiple sources allowing one to still apply those debuffs to the target.

You know 10% extra flame dmg is waaaay weaker than minor vulnerability, right? And that can be given by any NB in the group

Should we nerf Ambush/Lotus for that? No, then why should we nerf Engulfing?

Do you want to change its 10% extra flame dmg to minor vuln? Any DK will be happy with it.

SaintSubwayy · July 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

To start off im talking about engulfing flames from a pve tank perspective. Engulfing flames currently offers a unique debuff making the target receive 10% more flame damage from the entire group.
Unlike other debuffs this one can only be applied by a dk and no other sources. In my opinion this gives dk tanks an unfair group utility advantage over other class tanks in end game groups running trials. Other classes have specific named debuffs that dont stack but have many ways to get them. Sure a templar running power of the light gives minor fracture and breach but its not the ONLY source of those debuffs.
Right now necromancer is the only class that can provide major vulnerability but that is with an ultimate.
Warden is the only source of minor toughness for the group. Toughness is a very useful ability but health can be gained from many sources.
The dragon knight engulfing flames ability is not an ultimate that is accessible sometimes and is a direct damage buff for the group unlike minor toughness. In my opinion for better game balance this ability should be changed to only affect the user of the ability not the entire group. This change would put all tanks on an even playing field rather than groups requiring a dk tank because if they dont have engulfing flames on the boss at all times the group misses out on 10% flame damage.
For some perspective before people say 10% is not a lot..
Major fracture/breach is a 5280 armor debuff.
5280 armor reduction =8% more damage for the whole group.
Engulfing flames offers 10% more flame damage for the entire group and is only attainable from 1 source.
Again im not asking for the ability to be nerfed for dk dps, if anything it should be buffed. But for the sake of fairness it should only apply to the caster if it remains a unique debuff like it currently is. If it needs to remain a debuff that the whole group can benefit from then i suggest it be changed to major breach instead. Even if it was changed to offer major AND minor breach it still wouldn't be as unfair as it currently is because both versions of breach can come from multiple sources allowing one to still apply those debuffs to the target.

You know 10% extra flame dmg is waaaay weaker than minor vulnerability, right? And that can be given by any NB in the group

Should we nerf Ambush/Lotus for that? No, then why should we nerf Engulfing?

Do you want to change its 10% extra flame dmg to minor vuln? Any DK will be happy with it.

lul what?
every magDK would hate a change like that.
the 10% flamedmg is unique to DK, and thats how it should stay.
Maybe add a set which provides the debuff...but guess what noone will use it, why should anyone waste a setbonus, when they have the same debuff from a skill?
even if NB is atm the stronger Tank, you still need atleast 1 DK in the group for minor brutality, so offtank will most likely be DK tank, or you have aa MagDK which also can eaily provide both (stamDK might be another story)

And in the current full stamina DD Meta, no tank should be runing engulfing anyways, but nox instead so they can throw out major fracture more easily on trash fights.

ccfeeling · July 2019

ZOS stated many times, DK is the best tank ever.

JumpmanLane · July 2019

Geeze they nerfed everything in the game and crybabies are still begging ZOS for nerfs!

How is a skill that 1/2 the people who slot it swear up and down they cant land suddenly overpowered? Fools beat Molag Balls, think theyre experts suddenly, get mopped by somebody and oh everybody is cheating and every skill that kills them is overpowered. Maybe, just maybe some folks just THINK they are good at the game...they think they are better than they are at any rate.

STRIVE to get better before you lower yourself to beg for NERFS. lol You'll feel better about yourself in the end.

JumpmanLane wrote: »

Geeze they nerfed everything in the game and crybabies are still begging ZOS for nerfs!

Had to jump back and QUOTE myself hehehehehe! Good GAWD ya'll!

paulsimonps · July 2019

The only reason NBs were chosen over DKs in this patch is cause DPS meta was all stamina necros and that the damage taken was mainly DoTs. DKs have it easier to survive in Direct Damage situations however, neither is more tankier than the other in ALL situations, just specific ones. But as soon as magicka DPS becomes meta again then the Tanking meta will flip back to DKs in a heartbeat and nobody will give two S's about NBs again sadly.

I've mained a DK Tank since Beta and I still have always have hated the Engulfing Flames buff.

John_Falstaff · July 2019

No.

For one, it doesn't, on its face, provide 10% buff to all damage. Only fire (and no DD has all their damage as fire, so the gain is much less in reality), only magicka dps (yup, we're in Elsweyr now, should I run engulfing for my group of eight stam necros why exactly? why do I want magicka + Engulfing if I can get NB tank + 8 necros for more damage?). You're chasing ghosts there.

If anything, NBs will get a good group debuff in form of Power Extraction this upcoming update, basically a stackable, unnamed unique AoE Weakening glyph right on the class skill. The game moves towards giving more classes unique group utility, and I think that's how it should be.

Xvorg · July 2019

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

To start off im talking about engulfing flames from a pve tank perspective. Engulfing flames currently offers a unique debuff making the target receive 10% more flame damage from the entire group.
Unlike other debuffs this one can only be applied by a dk and no other sources. In my opinion this gives dk tanks an unfair group utility advantage over other class tanks in end game groups running trials. Other classes have specific named debuffs that dont stack but have many ways to get them. Sure a templar running power of the light gives minor fracture and breach but its not the ONLY source of those debuffs.
Right now necromancer is the only class that can provide major vulnerability but that is with an ultimate.
Warden is the only source of minor toughness for the group. Toughness is a very useful ability but health can be gained from many sources.
The dragon knight engulfing flames ability is not an ultimate that is accessible sometimes and is a direct damage buff for the group unlike minor toughness. In my opinion for better game balance this ability should be changed to only affect the user of the ability not the entire group. This change would put all tanks on an even playing field rather than groups requiring a dk tank because if they dont have engulfing flames on the boss at all times the group misses out on 10% flame damage.
For some perspective before people say 10% is not a lot..
Major fracture/breach is a 5280 armor debuff.
5280 armor reduction =8% more damage for the whole group.
Engulfing flames offers 10% more flame damage for the entire group and is only attainable from 1 source.
Again im not asking for the ability to be nerfed for dk dps, if anything it should be buffed. But for the sake of fairness it should only apply to the caster if it remains a unique debuff like it currently is. If it needs to remain a debuff that the whole group can benefit from then i suggest it be changed to major breach instead. Even if it was changed to offer major AND minor breach it still wouldn't be as unfair as it currently is because both versions of breach can come from multiple sources allowing one to still apply those debuffs to the target.

You know 10% extra flame dmg is waaaay weaker than minor vulnerability, right? And that can be given by any NB in the group

Should we nerf Ambush/Lotus for that? No, then why should we nerf Engulfing?

Do you want to change its 10% extra flame dmg to minor vuln? Any DK will be happy with it.

lul what?
every magDK would hate a change like that.
the 10% flamedmg is unique to DK, and thats how it should stay.
Maybe add a set which provides the debuff...but guess what noone will use it, why should anyone waste a setbonus, when they have the same debuff from a skill?
even if NB is atm the stronger Tank, you still need atleast 1 DK in the group for minor brutality, so offtank will most likely be DK tank, or you have aa MagDK which also can eaily provide both (stamDK might be another story)

And in the current full stamina DD Meta, no tank should be runing engulfing anyways, but nox instead so they can throw out major fracture more easily on trash fights.

PvE tanks, yes... PvE DD and PvPers... hmmm, 8% extra dmg on mackicak based skills and the chance of using a frost staff without depending on flame attacks...

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

How would adding that same debuff to some ability affect dk? That's not a nerf thats bringing other tanks in line with them.
If the other morph of ele drain was made to provide the same debuff as engulfing at least non dk tanks would have the ability to provide the debuff in trials like vCr or vAs where the majority of the dps are mag.
Not asking for a nerf to dk just asking that engulfing be changed to a named debuff that can be gained from some other sources.
Right now wardens have the only access to minor toughness and necro major vulnerability.
Dk is the only class that can apply the engulfing flames debuff.
Either standardize the debuff to the other classes or give other classes(sorc, nb and templar) unique buffs/debuffs that can not be gained from any other sources.

Minno · July 2019

Waste of resorces. I'd rather they fix performance lol

robpr · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’d also like to see sets like this added for other damage types (10% more Magic, Physical, and Lightning would all be great), it already exists for Poison damage with the Morag Tong set.

Old dusty Way of Martial Knowledge and new Z'en' Redress ? If they actually work on group

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

robpr wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

I’d also like to see sets like this added for other damage types (10% more Magic, Physical, and Lightning would all be great), it already exists for Poison damage with the Morag Tong set.

Old dusty Way of Martial Knowledge and new Z'en' Redress ? If they actually work on group

@robpr Yep, great sets. Martial is working, but Z’en’s is currently bugged. I have a thread going to discuss that set here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484792/thanks-for-z-en-s-redress-set#latest

My comment here was more directed at the possibility of single damage type buff sets in the future. A group of StamDK’s and Stamdens can benefit a lot from Morag Tong, but there’s no equivalent set that a group of Stam Sorcs and Stamplars can equip to help their physical damage. More coordination in optimized groups is rewarding, and I enjoy sets that benefit several group members.

Vajrak · July 2019

Add it to Scalding Rune as a proc chance if really that much of an issue. But it's not.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

Vajrak wrote: »

Add it to Scalding Rune as a proc chance if really that much of an issue. But it's not.

Interesting idea

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Add it to Scalding Rune as a proc chance if really that much of an issue. But it's not.

Interesting idea

No RNG please. If it’s an effect it needs to work every time it’s cast. I don’t really like the idea of it going on Scalding either. There’s no opportunity cost for using it then (like giving up a set bonus) and it would cheapen DK’s. It would probably also lead to Scalding getting a damage nerf down the road, which would be unfortunate since it is finally looking like a pretty good skill.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

Yea rng sucks if dk can have a guaranteed proc why cant other classes? See the thing is this game is either play how you want or its not. If its play how you want, you have to balance between the classes. If it's each class is unique then other classes need something comparable to engulfing in terms of group utility.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

Looking at this topic from the opposite perspective. Would it be too crazy to give the Morag Tong debuff (10% more damage taken from Poison) to Noxious Breath? That would give a reason to bring 2 DK’s to a trial (one can’t do both morphs), while still having the option to use the set if you don’t have 2 DK’s. It also may allow a StamDK to replace one of the many Stamcro’s in end game raid groups. Can’t say I’ve seen any StamDK’s in serious content in a long time.

Probably getting too off-topic for your thread. I’ll have to make a more general one at some point to discuss these things more.

Vajrak · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

Vajrak wrote: »

Add it to Scalding Rune as a proc chance if really that much of an issue. But it's not.

Interesting idea

No RNG please. If it’s an effect it needs to work every time it’s cast. I don’t really like the idea of it going on Scalding either. There’s no opportunity cost for using it then (like giving up a set bonus) and it would cheapen DK’s. It would probably also lead to Scalding getting a damage nerf down the road, which would be unfortunate since it is finally looking like a pretty good skill.

RNG on it is the way to keep it relevant without having to drop the damage, but can set it high at @20%.

Could also find a way to link it to a new poison, perhaps made with Dragon Blood, so then anyone can apply it at cost of losing your enchantment.

Point is if they wanted to implement it for all, there are ways to do it, as it is I see no issue having it as a DK specific skill, just means either having a DK Tank or MagDK if want it.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

I would say give the 10% poison damage debuff to some ability accessible from all classes. Maybe give the ability to the other morph of the undaunted spiders. It fits the group centric theme that all undaunted abilities have. Spiders apply poison damage already so it kinda fits. It would also give a use to the other morph of spiders. Honestly what is the other morph even used for right now? I think that would be the best option at this time.

Ysbriel · July 2019

Keep up the overpowered and over performing narrative and this game will be as dull as a rod.

SaintSubwayy · July 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

To start off im talking about engulfing flames from a pve tank perspective. Engulfing flames currently offers a unique debuff making the target receive 10% more flame damage from the entire group.
Unlike other debuffs this one can only be applied by a dk and no other sources. In my opinion this gives dk tanks an unfair group utility advantage over other class tanks in end game groups running trials. Other classes have specific named debuffs that dont stack but have many ways to get them. Sure a templar running power of the light gives minor fracture and breach but its not the ONLY source of those debuffs.
Right now necromancer is the only class that can provide major vulnerability but that is with an ultimate.
Warden is the only source of minor toughness for the group. Toughness is a very useful ability but health can be gained from many sources.
The dragon knight engulfing flames ability is not an ultimate that is accessible sometimes and is a direct damage buff for the group unlike minor toughness. In my opinion for better game balance this ability should be changed to only affect the user of the ability not the entire group. This change would put all tanks on an even playing field rather than groups requiring a dk tank because if they dont have engulfing flames on the boss at all times the group misses out on 10% flame damage.
For some perspective before people say 10% is not a lot..
Major fracture/breach is a 5280 armor debuff.
5280 armor reduction =8% more damage for the whole group.
Engulfing flames offers 10% more flame damage for the entire group and is only attainable from 1 source.
Again im not asking for the ability to be nerfed for dk dps, if anything it should be buffed. But for the sake of fairness it should only apply to the caster if it remains a unique debuff like it currently is. If it needs to remain a debuff that the whole group can benefit from then i suggest it be changed to major breach instead. Even if it was changed to offer major AND minor breach it still wouldn't be as unfair as it currently is because both versions of breach can come from multiple sources allowing one to still apply those debuffs to the target.

You know 10% extra flame dmg is waaaay weaker than minor vulnerability, right? And that can be given by any NB in the group

Should we nerf Ambush/Lotus for that? No, then why should we nerf Engulfing?

Do you want to change its 10% extra flame dmg to minor vuln? Any DK will be happy with it.

lul what?
every magDK would hate a change like that.
the 10% flamedmg is unique to DK, and thats how it should stay.
Maybe add a set which provides the debuff...but guess what noone will use it, why should anyone waste a setbonus, when they have the same debuff from a skill?
even if NB is atm the stronger Tank, you still need atleast 1 DK in the group for minor brutality, so offtank will most likely be DK tank, or you have aa MagDK which also can eaily provide both (stamDK might be another story)

And in the current full stamina DD Meta, no tank should be runing engulfing anyways, but nox instead so they can throw out major fracture more easily on trash fights.

PvE tanks, yes... PvE DD and PvPers... hmmm, 8% extra dmg on mackicak based skills and the chance of using a frost staff without depending on flame attacks...

minor vulnerability isnt as good as it sounds like....specially on a magDK in PVE.
the Only skill that doesnt deal flamedmg is rearming trap (or acceleration, which ever is used)

so 10% flamedmg is definetly stronger for any magDKs

further more there are other sources for minor vulnerability, specially in PVE, sets like IA or concussion statuseffect come to mind.

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

I would say give the 10% poison damage debuff to some ability accessible from all classes. Maybe give the ability to the other morph of the undaunted spiders. It fits the group centric theme that all undaunted abilities have. Spiders apply poison damage already so it kinda fits. It would also give a use to the other morph of spiders. Honestly what is the other morph even used for right now? I think that would be the best option at this time.

theres the morag Tong set for that, so also not really needed (ofc you wouldnt have to use the set, but its still worth it atm)

SoLooney · July 2019

Heck no, leave it at it is

Engulfing and minor brutality are unique to dks. Even if the 10perc flame damage was given to other classes or skillines. You're still almost always gonna want a dk for minor brutality for the stam dps

Stam and mag dk dps are already irrelevant and have been for years, dont be ruining dks even more

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

Making the engulfing flames debuff accessible to other tanks is not a nerf to the dk class. The thing is that right now dk has engulfing flames, warden has minor toughness and necromancer has major vulnerability. But what group buffs/debuffs do templar, nightblade or socr have that are NOT accessible from any other sources?
So for the sake of fairness either those classes need unique buffs/debuffs or they need access to the same debuffs/buffs other classes have.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Templars, nightblades and sorcs have unique buffs avaiable. Templar has minor sorcerey for the Group, sorc has minor Prophecy for the Group and nightblade has minor savagery for the Group.
Most Groups just have them in either dps or healing role so a tank of the same class wouldnt bring anything Special, but the same would be the case if magdk dps was brought along, then a dk tank offers Nothing unique either.
Some Groups are actually running nightblade tanks since they are stacking stamnecros and those still Need the 6% weapon crit from nightblades (and a nightblade tank has the highest Damage Mitigation for Sunspire).