Thanks for Z’en’s Redress Set

WrathOfInnos

I am loving the concept of this set, and just wanted to say thanks for creating it, as well as discussing its use with others. Z’en’s is a group buff set, much like IA or Alkosh, that has the potential to increase group DPS against a single target. Unlike IA and Alkosh, Z’en’s was designed in such a way that a tank or healer cannot reasonably keep good uptimes on it (need to maintain 5 single target DoT’s on the enemy 100% of the time to get the full effect).

With maximum uptime, one Magicka DPS wearing this set can cause an enemy to take 10% more damage from all sources. Now in reality, this is not a true 10% DPS increase, it is more likely around 8% in an optimized group because it is additive with other debuffs like Minor and Major Vulnerability, as well as the new Martial Knowledge set (also an excellent addition to the game, but don’t want to get off-topic). Comparing this to other sets, we can see it is a more powerful debuff than IA (by 25%), but it does not bring a heavy attack increase or additional Spell Crit bonus on the 5pc. I would say it is similar in power, while being slightly weaker for the user and slightly better for the group. Looking at Alkosh, which usually ranges from 6-8% DPS gain for the group, we can see that Z’en’s falls into the high end of this range. In a perfectly optimized group, Z’en’s will be slightly more useful than Alkosh against bosses (by about 2% group DPS), but Alkosh also gives proc damage to the wearer and arguably has an easier proc condition (use a synergy every 10s vs maintaining 5 DoTs). Alkosh is also AoE, so is much more useful in trash. I would say these are fairly well-balanced, and since all these sets can be used together they’re not really competing, just interesting to compare their relative strength.

Z’en’s is definitely better than Major or Minor Courage against a single target (Major is usually 4-5% DPS gain, Minor is 2.5%), but again Z’en’s is useless against trash and offers no AoE, as well as being much more difficult to manage (Minor Courage from Yolnahkriin literally just requires the tank to taunt).
Z’en’s is as useful to the entire group as the Engulfing Flames debuff is to a MagDK, and slightly better than the Morag Tong debuff even for StamDK’s and Stamdens (Poison-damage classes).

If it’s not clear already, all the sets I’ve used above for comparisons are my favorites the in game, because they allow an individual to bring more to a group than the typical “selfish” set. Worm, Ebon, and Hircines also make the list, although they are more difficult to compare directly. In the current game environment where Stamina DPS are by far the most effective, I’m glad to see the creation of a set that will secure a place for at least one Magicka build in any competitive group. It’s not limiting to which class can run it (unlike Architect and War Machine), but will definitely add a little build diversity to the 8 Stamcro cores.

I can’t wait to try it on PTS when the 5 piece bonus is fixed, and work on developing a rotation specifically for keeping good Z’en’s uptimes (should be very fun with the new Entropy, Soul Trap, and Reach). Might even be able to pre-place a few ground DoTs like Scalding Rune and Rearming Trap to reduce the 5-second ramp up after a boss appears (like dragons that fly away 3 times per fight).

WrathOfInnos

As an additional note, I’m planning to run this set on Sorc, despite having no class DoT to activate it (I don’t expect Curse will count, but we’ll see). It will be easiest to utilize on Magblade (with Lotus Fan and Cripple) or MagDK (with Burning Embers and Engulfing Flames). Introducing something that makes groups want to bring one of the 2 most underrepresented builds (in PVE) to raid is awesome. Magden and Magplar would probably be the next best choice, due to Vampire Bane and Swarm (with magden possibly being the least used build in end game PVE).

gamerbunny9910_ESO

With the changes to all the guild skills and such, it's actually really easy to get 5 DoTs now. Clench, Soul Trap, Entropy, Scalding Rune is four, I've seen a lot of mag builds run barbed trap for 5 non-class DoT debuffs. I'm fairly sure I've missed one or two. If burning counts, there's another.

I don't think it will change who is desirable to the raid, just because most of those skills will already be on everyone's bar now, so EVERYONE will be able to keep full uptime on this set.

As an aside, this is my first time posting in 5 years....do you know how to change a username? LOL

WrathOfInnos

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

With the changes to all the guild skills and such, it's actually really easy to get 5 DoTs now. Clench, Soul Trap, Entropy, Scalding Rune is four, I've seen a lot of mag builds run barbed trap for 5 non-class DoT debuffs. I'm fairly sure I've missed one or two. If burning counts, there's another.

I don't think it will change who is desirable to the raid, just because most of those skills will already be on everyone's bar now, so EVERYONE will be able to keep full uptime on this set.

As an aside, this is my first time posting in 5 years....do you know how to change a username? LOL

Welcome back

I agree that any Magicka build will be able to use the set, just some more easily than others. My main point was that it is a Magicka DPS set that will noticeably increase the damage of a Stamina DPS group. That doesn’t really exist a this point, with IA being mainly a healer set, and most competitive groups running all Stamina DPS in trials. Master Architect previously filled this role to some extent, but could only be used by Magblade, Magden, or Magplar. Architect wasn’t really required either, since War Machine could easily be used instead, and Lokkestiiz has now made both of those sets useless.

gamerbunny9910_ESO

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Welcome back

I agree that any Magicka build will be able to use the set, just some more easily than others. My main point was that it is a Magicka DPS set that will noticeably increase the damage of a Stamina DPS group. That doesn’t really exist a this point, with IA being mainly a healer set, and most competitive groups running all Stamina DPS in trials. Master Architect previously filled this role to some extent, but could only be used by Magblade, Magden, or Magplar. Architect wasn’t really required either, since War Machine could easily be used instead, and Lokkestiiz has now made both of those sets useless.

True. I was going to look into the new Martial Knowledge, as well. Quick dodge roll every few seconds to keep up a 10% damage buff for everyone might be worth it, but I'd need to test it to see how easy it is to keep up lol

WrathOfInnos

gamerbunny9910_ESO wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Welcome back

I agree that any Magicka build will be able to use the set, just some more easily than others. My main point was that it is a Magicka DPS set that will noticeably increase the damage of a Stamina DPS group. That doesn’t really exist a this point, with IA being mainly a healer set, and most competitive groups running all Stamina DPS in trials. Master Architect previously filled this role to some extent, but could only be used by Magblade, Magden, or Magplar. Architect wasn’t really required either, since War Machine could easily be used instead, and Lokkestiiz has now made both of those sets useless.

True. I was going to look into the new Martial Knowledge, as well. Quick dodge roll every few seconds to keep up a 10% damage buff for everyone might be worth it, but I'd need to test it to see how easy it is to keep up lol

@gamerbunny9910_ESO I played around with Martial a little on PTS. I was using Bash and Block to control stamina. It was a pain to manage while trying to do a rotation, and I suspect this will end up being used primarily by Templar healers, just by light attacking after casting PotL and maybe alternating with Circle of Protection. This could require moving another buff set from a healer to a DPS (maybe IA, Worm, or Hircines). Definitely some interesting options to play around with, and fun group optimization.

You won’t get 10% damage out of Martial though, at best it’s 66% uptime, and while active is more like 8% damage increase when added to other debuffs. 5% added DPS is probably a reasonable goal for Martial. I don’t think it can outperform IA, but being able to stack them sounds nice.

Marteene

Sadly this set isn't properly functioning, fingers crossed for next week

Olupajmibanan

Don't forget Burning and dot from Barbed Trap.

MagDK is absolutely the best candidate to wear the set because it uses 4 dots commonly even on live - burning embers, engulfing flames, rearming trap and burning. After erruption nerf, I think that it is replaceable with any of the new buffed dots, most preferably Degeneration for the extra sustain. That brings magDK to high uptime on 5 different dots. While other classes can wear Zen, they must adjust their skill bars and rotation greatly in order to achieve high uptime on 5 different dots. MagDK just have to switch gear.
That being said, I am very grateful that magDK might be wanted in trials again thanks to Z'en's Redress set.

Olupajmibanan

One question:
How does Martial Knowledge work when more players have it at the same time? Can a target have more Martial Knowledge debuffs at the same time, and if so, do they stack? Or does it replace itself when new MK debuff is applied from whoever?
I am thinking about 100% uptime by having 2 tanks wear it and time it well.

Zen set is pretty clear about that in the last sentence of the tooltip. A target can have more Zen debuffs on him, but will get increased damage only for one.

WrathOfInnos

Marteene wrote: »

Sadly this set isn't properly functioning, fingers crossed for next week

True, we got a comment from ZOS_Liforce today saying they’re aware and it will be fixed in a future PTS patch. Until then it’s a guess which abilities will work for the set. I suspect it will be anything that “sticks” to an enemy, which would be effects that show up in debuffs. Another way to look at this is any DoT that can be purged counts for the set, but I doubt AoE’s like Liquid Lightning, Wall or Blazing Spear will work. I’m not sure about Barbed Trap, since it’s technically a ground-placed ability, but it shows up as a debuff.

WrathOfInnos

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

One question:
How does Martial Knowledge work when more players have it at the same time? Can a target have more Martial Knowledge debuffs at the same time, and if so, do they stack? Or does it replace itself when new MK debuff is applied from whoever?
I am thinking about 100% uptime by having 2 tanks wear it and time it well.

Interesting question, I don’t think they would stack since it’s unique debuff (I don’t actually know the name since my CMX is off on PTS, but I can see an icon for it in the vanilla buff tracker). You probably could get 100% uptime if 2 people use the set, but timing that sounds pretty difficult.

WrathOfInnos

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Don't forget Burning and dot from Barbed Trap.

MagDK is absolutely the best candidate to wear the set because it uses 4 dots commonly even on live - burning embers, engulfing flames, rearming trap and burning. After erruption nerf, I think that it is replaceable with any of the new buffed dots, most preferably Degeneration for the extra sustain. That brings magDK to high uptime on 5 different dots. While other classes can wear Zen, they must adjust their skill bars and rotation greatly in order to achieve high uptime on 5 different dots. MagDK just have to switch gear.

I did forget Burning. What kind of Burning uptimes are magDk’s seeing these days? Is it reliable enough to consider a full uptime DoT (probably want at least 80-90% if it’s affecting the whole group’s DPS).

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

That being said, I am very grateful that magDK might be wanted in trials again thanks to Z'en's Redress set.

Yes agree entirely, it’s been too long since MagDK was desirable in trials (Homestead patch in Spring 2017 IIRC, with maybe some use through the end of that year before off-balance was nerfed). So glad to see a unique buff set like this that could potentially make them a key role in any group, without specifically requiring a MagDK and excluding other classes (which is a fine line).

rocket343

So we know for a fact that both Z'en's and Martial Knowledge will apply to everyone attacking that enemy? Not only the applicator?

Faulgor

Reminds me of the good old stam meta when people would coordinate who's wearing NMG and Sunderflame. I'll never understand why that was changed.

WrathOfInnos

rocket343 wrote: »

So we know for a fact that both Z'en's and Martial Knowledge will apply to everyone attacking that enemy? Not only the applicator?

@rocket343 I can say for a fact that Martial Knowledge does, I tried it on PTS with a friend. Nobody has been able to test Z'en's since it is bugged at the moment, but the tooltip is pretty clear about how the benefit is shared but cannot be stacked.

WrathOfInnos

Faulgor wrote: »

Reminds me of the good old stam meta when people would coordinate who's wearing NMG and Sunderflame. I'll never understand why that was changed.

Those were good times. I haven't really enjoyed playing Stam since those days, it just lost that feeling of team coordination and went to every man for himself.

Runefang

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Reminds me of the good old stam meta when people would coordinate who's wearing NMG and Sunderflame. I'll never understand why that was changed.

Those were good times. I haven't really enjoyed playing Stam since those days, it just lost that feeling of team coordination and went to every man for himself.

And Lokke made it even worse with the loss of MA & WM.

Olupajmibanan

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Don't forget Burning and dot from Barbed Trap.

MagDK is absolutely the best candidate to wear the set because it uses 4 dots commonly even on live - burning embers, engulfing flames, rearming trap and burning. After erruption nerf, I think that it is replaceable with any of the new buffed dots, most preferably Degeneration for the extra sustain. That brings magDK to high uptime on 5 different dots. While other classes can wear Zen, they must adjust their skill bars and rotation greatly in order to achieve high uptime on 5 different dots. MagDK just have to switch gear.

I did forget Burning. What kind of Burning uptimes are magDk’s seeing these days? Is it reliable enough to consider a full uptime DoT (probably want at least 80-90% if it’s affecting the whole group’s DPS).

Depends on your rotation. With my rotation where I use Flames of Oblivion as spammable, stack Seething Fury to 3 and then consume it with double dmg Whip, I can easily achieve 85%+ uptime on burning.

WrathOfInnos

FoO as a spammable??? Wow I really am out of touch with current magDK builds. Is that for the extra Spell Dmg from the new whip?

Edit: Answered my own question by noticing you referenced Seething Fury. Very interesting.

Saril_Durzam

A reason to bring a Magicka DD to any trial. Good.

Olupajmibanan

I really hope that Z'en's inferno staff is reward for the dungeon quest

Xerikten

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I really hope that Z'en's inferno staff is reward for the dungeon quest

knowing how such sets work in the past it will be lightning. infernal will be hard to get.

thanks to the person who posted the set description as what most of you said about it is somewhat off.

Excelsus

I'm hopeful we can move back into the direction of dps using various sets like this to coordinate and maximize dps, it always made me feel like more of a team player. Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It needs a nice visual though, maybe an eye that fills in the more dots you have to indicate the strength of the debuff.

Nifty2g

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

Lord_Eomer

Stam (medium set) should also get something other than poor proc sets,

This stacking proc is pathetic and even sets are worst

SodanTok

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

Lord_Eomer

SodanTok wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

This set is meant for a DD, healer can nor easily keep up with dots

Nifty2g

SodanTok wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

Elemental Wall
Power of the light
Ritual of Retribution
Blazing Spear

That's 4 dot's already in your tool kit that you use lol

gamerbunny9910_ESO

Nifty2g wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

Elemental Wall
Power of the light
Ritual of Retribution
Blazing Spear

That's 4 dot's already in your tool kit that you use lol

Based on how the set seems to work, though, not one of those would actually work. Power of the light isn't a DoT, it's delayed direct damage. This set seems to only work with DoTs that are applied directly to the target, like destructive reach, sould trap, cripple, etc. So none of those AoEs would work.

Excelsus

Nifty2g wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

Elemental Wall
Power of the light
Ritual of Retribution
Blazing Spear

That's 4 dot's already in your tool kit that you use lol

None of those are in a healers toolkit besides elemental wall and possibly potl. Clearly you don't heal. And healers already juggle worm, hircine, olorime, mending, sanctuary, torags and even ebon. A dps is just gonna have to suck it up and use a non parse set for the betterment of the group... oh no. Healers and tanks stuff their inventorys with various buff sets they have to swap between. Dps can be team players too.

SodanTok

Nifty2g wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

Excelsus wrote: »

Also glad Zos was wise enough to make this set useless for healers and tanks.

It's not useless for healers and tanks, it's a 20 second long debuff. You can most likely make this work on one of the healers if tanks start running orbs there will be bar space for it, and the off tank can also run it and have the bar space for it, it's actually far more suitable on the off tank

So healer can drop 1 skill (orb) and find place for 5 dots they dont use? Arent they DD at that point?

Elemental Wall
Power of the light
Ritual of Retribution
Blazing Spear

That's 4 dot's already in your tool kit that you use lol

As someone said, neither of these are 'dot effect placed on enemy' as set clearly says.