Op is OP

Nice catch Dwig! After talking to him, the layman interpretation is doubling the base hit is fine since it's a linear adjustment since ticks were divided nearly by 2. However, when adding the effect of each hit, each additional tick creates a larger effect than the previous tick, which makes the multiplier more valuable. I.e. what he means is the summation of the sequence is quadratic, so at 20 ticks the multiplier is much more valuable than at 12 ticks - and it's not a linear increase for each tick, x, but more of a quadratic (x^2) increase. So the multiplier needs to be similarly treated and given ticks weren't quite halved for endless, taking the multiplier (2 given the ticks were halved) and squaring it would overcompensate a bit.

@dwig Correct my if any part of that interpretation is wrong. Honestly, the only part that throws me off is doubling the base. Shouldn't the base stay the same and then the dmg for the ticks gets the increased multiplier?


He corrected me by saying the base happens once ever tick, so the base gets doubled (durrrrr) ^_^. Thanks @dwig.

SaintSubwayy wrote: »

Nothing new here tbh...this math was already done on monday evening...but checking the forums seems to be hard these days

You can find the original vMA bow thread here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484290/vma-bow

vMA Bow with ABrrage for Trash and multiTarget (aoe) bosses.
vDSA Bow for pure ST.

Forgive us for not searching through 100s of threads to make sure this topic existed when it was clearly not even among the first page or two especially lol. The big thing there is you fail to explain WHY it's weaker when ZOS clearly intended for it to be about the same buff from the bow (based on wording):



Dwig's thread clearly explains why their math was funky and how to get a bit closer to correcting it.

I kinda hope it stays the way it is. Bow backbar has had no viable competition for far too long in PvE. I'm interested to see if 2H and DW are comparable backbar weapons now

@ZOS_Gilliam

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I kinda hope it stays the way it is. Bow backbar has had no viable competition for far too long in PvE. I'm interested to see if 2H and DW are comparable backbar weapons now

Unfortunately, That will not be the case for 2H. Since there is only one dot that is single target and does not proc berserker enchant. This also goes for dw, The nerf to enchant size make back bar DW less viable aswell. It would be possible for DW if they never nerfed enchants. Also blade cloak+rending =/= PI + volley. So regardless of these nerf just by inspection these weapons are still too much of a loss.

Stampede reads as though it leaves a ground based aoe dot. If true (forgot to test last night) the bolded statement will be outdated info.

LiquidPony wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I kinda hope it stays the way it is. Bow backbar has had no viable competition for far too long in PvE. I'm interested to see if 2H and DW are comparable backbar weapons now

Unfortunately, That will not be the case for 2H. Since there is only one dot that is single target and does not proc berserker enchant. This also goes for dw, The nerf to enchant size make back bar DW less viable aswell. It would be possible for DW if they never nerfed enchants. Also blade cloak+rending =/= PI + volley. So regardless of these nerf just by inspection these weapons are still too much of a loss.

@Onefrkncrzypope

This is no longer the case. 2H Stampede is an 8s ground AoE DoT now, and it procs Berserker.

2H/DW is a totally viable setup in the current state of PTS. Stampede + Merciless Charge (if using Maelstrom 2H backbar) + Carve + Heavy Weapons Bleed does quite a bit of DPS ... comparable to Hail + Poison Inject.

Bow/DW is still stronger but it's much, much closer than in the past.

And you can also do DW/DW as well. Sure, you lose half of the strength of your Berserker enchant *but* it opens up interesting options like Asylum DW + Maelstrom DW.

Got some parses? very interesting.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I kinda hope it stays the way it is. Bow backbar has had no viable competition for far too long in PvE. I'm interested to see if 2H and DW are comparable backbar weapons now

Unfortunately, That will not be the case for 2H. Since there is only one dot that is single target and does not proc berserker enchant. This also goes for dw, The nerf to enchant size make back bar DW less viable aswell. It would be possible for DW if they never nerfed enchants. Also blade cloak+rending =/= PI + volley. So regardless of these nerf just by inspection these weapons are still too much of a loss.

@Onefrkncrzypope

This is no longer the case. 2H Stampede is an 8s ground AoE DoT now, and it procs Berserker.

2H/DW is a totally viable setup in the current state of PTS. Stampede + Merciless Charge (if using Maelstrom 2H backbar) + Carve + Heavy Weapons Bleed does quite a bit of DPS ... comparable to Hail + Poison Inject.

Bow/DW is still stronger but it's much, much closer than in the past.

And you can also do DW/DW as well. Sure, you lose half of the strength of your Berserker enchant *but* it opens up interesting options like Asylum DW + Maelstrom DW.

Got some parses? very interesting.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/484373/pts-5-1-0-42k-bleed-build-dw-2h-up-to-72k-buffed

Whats this showing me? stampede isn't even in the screenshot its dps is lower that 2k nvm not the first parse. k

LiquidPony wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

RaptorRodeoGod wrote: »

I kinda hope it stays the way it is. Bow backbar has had no viable competition for far too long in PvE. I'm interested to see if 2H and DW are comparable backbar weapons now

Unfortunately, That will not be the case for 2H. Since there is only one dot that is single target and does not proc berserker enchant. This also goes for dw, The nerf to enchant size make back bar DW less viable aswell. It would be possible for DW if they never nerfed enchants. Also blade cloak+rending =/= PI + volley. So regardless of these nerf just by inspection these weapons are still too much of a loss.

@Onefrkncrzypope

This is no longer the case. 2H Stampede is an 8s ground AoE DoT now, and it procs Berserker.

2H/DW is a totally viable setup in the current state of PTS. Stampede + Merciless Charge (if using Maelstrom 2H backbar) + Carve + Heavy Weapons Bleed does quite a bit of DPS ... comparable to Hail + Poison Inject.

Bow/DW is still stronger but it's much, much closer than in the past.

And you can also do DW/DW as well. Sure, you lose half of the strength of your Berserker enchant *but* it opens up interesting options like Asylum DW + Maelstrom DW.

Got some parses? very interesting.

@Onefrkncrzypope

2H/DW stamsorc:


DW/DW stamsorc:


2H/DW stamDK:


I'm quite certain better players can push these higher with some optimization. In particular the 2H/DW stamsorc has the potential to hit 100k I think.

Yea currently reading in the thread ty.

Feels bad grinding vMA and getting the crap slapped out of the bow. vMA is one of the hardest activities in the game, you should be rewarded for completing it.

ZoS: What do we do when 75% of players still can't beat vMA? You obsolete the vMA weapons so those players never have to even go in there.

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Both done good job pointing out the fact that the bow got a nerf and bringing the numbers.

What's even more important is that developer comment, indeed, states that they have changed the bonus to compensate for fewer number of ticks - which gives hope that they didn't intend to nerf it, and will correct the mistake.

@ZOS_GinaBruno , @ZOS_BrianWheeler - just tagging to increase the chances for it to be brought to attention.

well I dont expect them to make any big changes to it TBH.
hail took a nerf, while poison injection got the buff, they come out on about the sme DMG than they do on live for what ive seen so far.
unless they intend to buff sstamina DPS further, they wont change the Bow.

if they change it again, it wont be in the "sweet spot" it is right now.
then we'd have a vMA bow meta all over again, atleast now we have some diversity for different fights, which is nice.

Osubaker33 wrote: »

ZoS: What do we do when 75% of players still can't beat vMA? You obsolete the vMA weapons so those players never have to even go in there.

No, vMA Bow aint obsolete with this change, its still the strongest bow for AOE fights in dungeons and trials, it only lost the race for strongest ST arena weapon, which is fine in terms of diversity.
also the the buffs to poison injection and both traps (soul and beat) ST DPS may be higher than before, especially in combo with vDSA bow.

Kolzki wrote: »

Those no-bow parses are impressive. I think I would miss the the bow light attack for keeping relequen up at range during disconnects. Do we zip around using stampede to stay in melee range? Does it work?

well prob you wont run relequen if you have a bossfight wher you need to move away from the boss, since the DPS loss would be too high.
better run Lokke and something like leviathan or another set which can be used in moving fights.

The parses without Bow are pretty good tbh, however those dont represent a real bossfights in any way, since its a 100% meele parse, which many bossfights dont allow.
also you have no chance to keep an enchant up on the backbar, if you run a 2h on backbar (unless you swap to backbar every 5sec, to apply berserker echant)