Let's talk about the healing changes...

RogueShark · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

God, is it so difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say? How often do I say other classes need adjustments to their healing repertoire to compensate the changes... this is the first round of the PTS. They already changed their mind and will allow Orb to be synergized with more players.

Who knows yet what they will change next week or the week after due to the feedback? Yet you’re all just whining „NO DON‘T DO THIS KEEP IT AS IT IS!!!!“ without even trying to get behind the changes and advocate for anything besides the recent status quo. I’ve yet seen no (!) suggestion for other heals or changes to be made except “don’t change anything“.

Advocate all you want. Changes nothing.
The major point is they have put forth these changes with zero regard for sorc, NB and DK. People have said, REPEATEDLY, why they don't want changes, but you choose to gloss over them.
I've said it plainly, I will repeat plainly: they should not change anything right now because it will ruin "off-meta" healing. If they want to totally rework healing, they need to do it at the same time they rework abilities for other classes to heal with.
Which they are not doing. There was zero attempt or mention that they were working on it. So the changes are bad. Can't simplify it any further.

Seraphayel · July 2019

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

Heelie · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

snarkomatic · July 2019

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

Every healer I talk to who is supportive of this change is either limited in experience or limited by guesswork (because I play on console). It is very frustrating to watch people turn up their noses at recorded hard data from PC/PTS and act as if you guys pushing score runs just never thought of using potency buffs like Major Mending.

I like the idea of shaking things up and adjusting the meta. However, I've so far seen no evidence of ZoS allowing us the freedom to do so; e.g., removing grand healing's stacking power and also simultaneously nerfing its raw healing ticks per sec and also nerfing off-meta class skills for healing and also buffing DPS self-heals. If the aim was to shake up the meta without breaking gameplay, one would expect to see buffs to class/off-meta skills, buffs to other healer utility, etc. to give us all more reason to diversify our builds instead.

Either there is zero consideration going into these combined moving parts, or they're bald-faced lying to us about their actual intentions. I honestly don't know which option is more likely at this point.

LadyNalcarya · July 2019

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

Well I asked them about their experience and they ignored my question... So I suppose it's fair to assume that they don't have any experience at healing dlc trials but somehow know everything about it.

Heelie · July 2019

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

Well I asked them about their experience and they ignored my question... So I suppose it's fair to assume that they don't have any experience at healing dlc trials but somehow know everything about it.

Just from the healers against this change on my friends list I count more than 40 TTT, GH and IRs combined. Including every score world record currently "2nd and 3rd runners up as well" . A good shot would be a little over 15.000 hours of trial healing experience combined. We have all evidence to suggest that this change would be for the worse of trial healing in eso. However the change coming in week 2 looks very promising. If they were to up the single Orb healing by a little over 200% we would start looking at opportunities opening up.

I honestly don’t mind the meta being disturbed a bit. And neither does most of the crowd against this change. What we need is just net healing enough to allow our dynamic rotations to evolve. As I have probably said 1000 since the patch notes leaked. Healing over time in pve is the resource that allows for diversity as well as dynamic rotations. Without enough of it we have to constantly “clap heal” our groups

Clap Healing is when you throw single global cooldown aoe healing spells, with no greater benefactor to the team. This is where healers are forced when their healing over time is not enough to outheal the incoming damage. This play style is very stale and boring. It does not allow for a large skill ceiling.

What the crowd for this change fails to understand is that while orbs where by far the most cast ability among healers in end game. It was not a mindless spam. It was a result of the massive amount of healing coming from orbs while being a great benefactor. Orbs allowed for us to diversify our rotations as up to 30% of our global cool downs could be converted to direct non healing group support, this could be Caltrops for PA etc, or even pure damage as we saw with sorc healing for almost a year.

iLLcrime · July 2019

Heelie wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

Well I asked them about their experience and they ignored my question... So I suppose it's fair to assume that they don't have any experience at healing dlc trials but somehow know everything about it.

Just from the healers against this change on my friends list I count more than 40 TTT, GH and IRs combined. Including every score world record currently "2nd and 3rd runners up as well" . A good shot would be a little over 15.000 hours of trial healing experience combined. We have all evidence to suggest that this change would be for the worse of trial healing in eso. However the change coming in week 2 looks very promising. If they were to up the single Orb healing by a little over 200% we would start looking at opportunities opening up.

I honestly don’t mind the meta being disturbed a bit. And neither does most of the crowd against this change. What we need is just net healing enough to allow our dynamic rotations to evolve. As I have probably said 1000 since the patch notes leaked. Healing over time in pve is the resource that allows for diversity as well as dynamic rotations. Without enough of it we have to constantly “clap heal” our groups

Clap Healing is when you throw single global cooldown aoe healing spells, with no greater benefactor to the team. This is where healers are forced when their healing over time is not enough to outheal the incoming damage. This play style is very stale and boring. It does not allow for a large skill ceiling.

What the crowd for this change fails to understand is that while orbs where by far the most cast ability among healers in end game. It was not a mindless spam. It was a result of the massive amount of healing coming from orbs while being a great benefactor. Orbs allowed for us to diversify our rotations as up to 30% of our global cool downs could be converted to direct non healing group support, this could be Caltrops for PA etc, or even pure damage as we saw with sorc healing for almost a year.

While my friends list isn't as amazing as yours or filled with a ton of amazing players, I still get the same feedback that you do. These changes are terrible and I can't imagine anyone who would think they're good unless all they do is overland/questing and some 4 man content (which won't need a healer more so now than before where healers were just replaced by a 3rd DPS).

At this point, trials might even go the route of 10 DPS with everyone slotting echoing vigor and have a couple of them mag DPS backbar a resto for combat prayer and THAT is what makes me incredibly sad.

Aznarb · July 2019

RogueShark wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

God, is it so difficult to comprehend what I am trying to say? How often do I say other classes need adjustments to their healing repertoire to compensate the changes... this is the first round of the PTS. They already changed their mind and will allow Orb to be synergized with more players.

Who knows yet what they will change next week or the week after due to the feedback? Yet you’re all just whining „NO DON‘T DO THIS KEEP IT AS IT IS!!!!“ without even trying to get behind the changes and advocate for anything besides the recent status quo. I’ve yet seen no (!) suggestion for other heals or changes to be made except “don’t change anything“.

Advocate all you want. Changes nothing.
The major point is they have put forth these changes with zero regard for sorc, NB and DK. People have said, REPEATEDLY, why they don't want changes, but you choose to gloss over them.
I've said it plainly, I will repeat plainly: they should not change anything right now because it will ruin "off-meta" healing. If they want to totally rework healing, they need to do it at the same time they rework abilities for other classes to heal with.
Which they are not doing. There was zero attempt or mention that they were working on it. So the changes are bad. Can't simplify it any further.

Don't worry, I've put my NB, DK and sorc heal to the trash-bin, I'm back to templar, since ZoS don't care about them.

Jeremy · July 2019

danara wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.

Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.

With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.

I would love to see a "blind monkey" heal some of the 4 man pugs I've been in. That would be comical to watch.

As to your second point - have you tried the new regeneration out to compensate for the changes to healing springs? 98% increase in healing looks nice - even with the shorter duration.

And tell me how the hell do i use Regeneration in a 12 Man party when it only heal one person at a time ?
This change is a nerf for pve (the skill was usefull in vAS, now i dont think you want to bother yourself with that), but a buff for pvp (especialy BG)

Do not mix everything

You use it multiple times. Even before - it only targeted two people at a time. I'd rather have to cast the spell twice and gain double the potency personally. This new regeneration should out perform the older regeneration in any context.

Have you tried it yet?

Jeremy · July 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

As a healer that actually does the vet trials and hm's. It is so apparent of the people in this thread that don't and are acting like they know what they are talking about.

Just healing your 4 man dungeons doesn't mean anything. It doesn't make you knowledgeable on this subject. A blind monkey can heal 4 mans.

It has absolutely nothing to do with "healers are just used to sitting back and spamming healing springs" you are just showing your ignorance on the subject. we never just sit back and spam springs. We do when there are certain mechanics in the fight that REQUIRES us to do it. we have had no choice its how the devs designed the fights.

With these changes they took that away with no answer to deal with the mechanic they built springs around.

I would love to see a "blind monkey" heal some of the 4 man pugs I've been in. That would be comical to watch.

As to your second point - have you tried the new regeneration out to compensate for the changes to healing springs? 98% increase in healing looks nice - even with the shorter duration.

It goes from 4.6k and 2 GCDs to get Regen on the group, up to 10k and 4 GCDs to get Regen on a group. It takes too long and costs far too much

Well you may be right. I haven't tried it yet - and won't be able to try it until it goes live as I don't play on the PTS. So if you've actually used it I won't debate you - at least not until I have tried it out for myself. All I know is that it looks nice on paper.

But even if it does fail as an effective group HoT during times of intense AoE damage - it still looks nice as a quick and effective way to heal players who aren't positioned near or in front of the healer who need some quick healing - which is something I've been asking for for a long time on here. Healing pugs as a healer can be so miserable when you have group members scattered and running all over the place and I have enough gray hair.

But in respect to countering AoE damage - I'll abstain until I have tested this spell out for myself. Though in all honestly I don't see why it at least wouldn't outperform the earlier regeneration. But sometimes looks can be deceiving.

You don’t get to choose the target, so it’s not good for healing those out of group. Unless that changes, it’s not even good on paper unless you’re solo’ing a dungeon

Well it looks great on paper to me.

And it automatically targets the person with the lowest health I believe - which is who you would probably want to target anyway. So I don't see the problem there.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

You use it multiple times. Even before - it only targeted two people at a time. I'd rather have to cast the spell twice and gain double the potency personally. This new regeneration should out perform the older regeneration in any context.

Have you tried it yet?

In this specific example as Group healer in vAS you cannot Keep the new Regeneration up. It lasts 10 seconds. You have 8 dps that want it. You only hit 1 per cast. You might hit your offtank once. If you want to Keep it up on dds you literally cannot do anything beyond spamming Regeneration since you will also have to move into range of Position 1 and 8. If you knew vAS you would know this.
So using orbs multiple times or god forbid healing springs is bad but spamming Regeneration until out of magicka is our very salvation?

kargen27 · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

Orb change is the single worst change in these notes. Healer role in this game requires providing buffs, and since they nerfed everyone's sustain in Morrowind, using orbs is pretty much mandatory.
That's what happens when people look at public logs and think "oh no, there's so much overhealing". If overhealing was the problem, they could've just reduced the healing component of both springs and orbs...

Healers are healers and not supporters / buffers. That’s the biggest problem in this game, healers are degraded to buff bots. That should have never been the case and that’s why the changes to Orb are actually good. Giving you buffs and resources is not the job of a healer. If you want that, build around it or get one supporter per group who’s specialized in doing that. I’m happy that healing becomes more difficult and less of an endless spam of Greater Healing / Orb.

I don't really see the difference in healing and buffing as part of a role. Either way I am helping the group quicker reach our goal. Anything I can do to help the DPS keep on doing that DPS is a good thing. If they have low health I heal, if they have low resources I buff. All the same really. If the job of the healer was simply healing it would be more boring than waiting for bosses to spawn.
We are called a healer because we gotta be called something. Doesn't mean we need to be wrangled into healing only.

Aznarb · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You use it multiple times. Even before - it only targeted two people at a time. I'd rather have to cast the spell twice and gain double the potency personally. This new regeneration should out perform the older regeneration in any context.

Have you tried it yet?

In this specific example as Group healer in vAS you cannot Keep the new Regeneration up. It lasts 10 seconds. You have 8 dps that want it. You only hit 1 per cast. You might hit your offtank once. If you want to Keep it up on dds you literally cannot do anything beyond spamming Regeneration since you will also have to move into range of Position 1 and 8. If you knew vAS you would know this.
So using orbs multiple times or god forbid healing springs is bad but spamming Regeneration until out of magicka is our very salvation?

Agree I find that funny how they contradict themself every post.
Blaming ppl about no skill cuz spam orb/grand healing (which is not the case, they'll know that if they were really healing period) but spamming Regen or Blessing/prayer make us skillful player ?

Geez that so stupid...

Jeremy · July 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You use it multiple times. Even before - it only targeted two people at a time. I'd rather have to cast the spell twice and gain double the potency personally. This new regeneration should out perform the older regeneration in any context.

Have you tried it yet?

In this specific example as Group healer in vAS you cannot Keep the new Regeneration up. It lasts 10 seconds. You have 8 dps that want it. You only hit 1 per cast. You might hit your offtank once. If you want to Keep it up on dds you literally cannot do anything beyond spamming Regeneration since you will also have to move into range of Position 1 and 8. If you knew vAS you would know this.
So using orbs multiple times or god forbid healing springs is bad but spamming Regeneration until out of magicka is our very salvation?

I don't really like the spamming of any ability to be honest. I just think it's lame game play generally.

Ideally I would prefer they give healers a more effective AoE heal - something else I've been asking for on these forums for awhile. I was just suggesting people try it to see if it helped compensate - since the healing on it had been buffed considerably.

Jeremy · July 2019

Aznarb wrote: »

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

You use it multiple times. Even before - it only targeted two people at a time. I'd rather have to cast the spell twice and gain double the potency personally. This new regeneration should out perform the older regeneration in any context.

Have you tried it yet?

In this specific example as Group healer in vAS you cannot Keep the new Regeneration up. It lasts 10 seconds. You have 8 dps that want it. You only hit 1 per cast. You might hit your offtank once. If you want to Keep it up on dds you literally cannot do anything beyond spamming Regeneration since you will also have to move into range of Position 1 and 8. If you knew vAS you would know this.
So using orbs multiple times or god forbid healing springs is bad but spamming Regeneration until out of magicka is our very salvation?

Agree I find that funny how they contradict themself every post.
Blaming ppl about no skill cuz spam orb/grand healing (which is not the case, they'll know that if they were really healing period) but spamming Regen or Blessing/prayer make us skillful player ?

Geez that so stupid...

Show me one post where I blamed any healer for not having any skill?

I'll wait.

CipherNine · July 2019

Guy arguing with the ones in this thread that obviously are clueless about healing is pointless. We all know who they are.

The knowledgeable ones has made all the points of why this patch is horrendous for the healing role. If they still can't understand that then its their problem.
It's just the same baseless arguments over and over that has been proven wrong and still they wont stop with it.

its the equivalent of joining some *** rocketry club in high school. Then going to NASA and thinking you can tell them how things work there.

If you don't heal veteran endgame content then you do not have the knowledge to say that this patch is good for healing.

Jeremy · July 2019

CipherNine wrote: »

Guy arguing with the ones in this thread that obviously are clueless about healing is pointless. We all know who they are.

The knowledgeable ones has made all the points of why this patch is horrendous for the healing role. If they still can't understand that then its their problem.
It's just the same baseless arguments over and over that has been proven wrong and still they wont stop with it.

its the equivalent of joining some *** rocketry club in high school. Then going to NASA and thinking you can tell them how things work there.

If you don't heal veteran endgame content then you do not have the knowledge to say that this patch is good for healing.

These changes may be bad for healers who relied on casting orbs and healing springs in succession.

But they don't look bad for other healers. I'm looking forward to them. So you can make fun of me all you want. I don't really care. The regeneration changes still look nice to me and are a step in the right direction. So if you think you're going to ridicule me into being quiet you might as well give it up. That's not going to happen.

CipherNine · July 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Guy arguing with the ones in this thread that obviously are clueless about healing is pointless. We all know who they are.

The knowledgeable ones has made all the points of why this patch is horrendous for the healing role. If they still can't understand that then its their problem.
It's just the same baseless arguments over and over that has been proven wrong and still they wont stop with it.

its the equivalent of joining some *** rocketry club in high school. Then going to NASA and thinking you can tell them how things work there.

If you don't heal veteran endgame content then you do not have the knowledge to say that this patch is good for healing.

These changes may be bad for healers who relied on casting orbs and healing springs in succession.

But they don't look bad for other healers. I'm looking forward to them. So you can make fun of me all you want. I don't really care.. The regeneration changes still look nice to me and are a step in the right direction. So if you think you're going to ridicule me into being quiet you might as well give it up. That's not going to happen.

/facepalm. wow man, just wow. I don't even know how people rationalize it in their heads to think they can talk about things that they don't know how they work. us healers in vet trials didn't just "rely" on orbs and healing springs. but whatever not gonna argue that cause its pointless.

But I am gonna say this and be done with you for now on.
You may think these changes are good for all the 4 man dungeons you do but its not.
You won't be needed as healer for any of that content we are hardly needed for it now. 1 DD can slot vigor with the aoe heal morph and make your role completely useless.

Jeremy · July 2019

CipherNine wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

CipherNine wrote: »

Guy arguing with the ones in this thread that obviously are clueless about healing is pointless. We all know who they are.

The knowledgeable ones has made all the points of why this patch is horrendous for the healing role. If they still can't understand that then its their problem.
It's just the same baseless arguments over and over that has been proven wrong and still they wont stop with it.

its the equivalent of joining some *** rocketry club in high school. Then going to NASA and thinking you can tell them how things work there.

If you don't heal veteran endgame content then you do not have the knowledge to say that this patch is good for healing.

These changes may be bad for healers who relied on casting orbs and healing springs in succession.

But they don't look bad for other healers. I'm looking forward to them. So you can make fun of me all you want. I don't really care.. The regeneration changes still look nice to me and are a step in the right direction. So if you think you're going to ridicule me into being quiet you might as well give it up. That's not going to happen.

/facepalm. wow man, just wow. I don't even know how people rationalize it in their heads to think they can talk about things that they don't know how they work. us healers in vet trials didn't just "rely" on orbs and healing springs. but whatever not gonna argue that cause its pointless.

But I am gonna say this and be done with you for now on.
You may think these changes are good for all the 4 man dungeons you do but its not.
You won't be needed as healer for any of that content we are hardly needed for it now. 1 DD can slot vigor with the aoe heal morph and make your role completely useless.

If you did not rely on casting orbs and healing springs in succession then why do have a problem with these nerfs?

And I don't really care if I'm quote on quote "needed" for content or not. That is irrelevant to me. All I care about is having more fun when I play - and these changes have a good chance of doing just that. If you want to slot vigor and heal yourself by all means be my guest.

The new regeneration looks like a reliable effective heal that is omnidirectional and doesn't require players to position on top of me. I've been asking for this for months now (maybe years). So the least I can do is go out of my way and support what they've done. And that's what I'm going to do.

And back when I did heal trials (which I actually did do by the way, even though you keep saying I didn't) that is exactly what we did - was stack and spam healing springs. Was it effective? Yeah... I guess so. But it wasn't exactly amazing game play and I won't be sad to see it go. Though i would agree healers need to give be given effective tools to compensate for these nerfs. I've long been a critic of how healing is designed on this game so this is nothing new for me.

AbysmalGhul · July 2019

*spams regeneration* Good luck everyone YOYO

f047ys3v3n · July 2019

First off, the changes are aimed at PVP, pretty obviously. Right now, when you have two big, well organized, groups encounter each other, they tend to be able to out heal each others damage for a long time. Often siege has to weigh in to actually bring and end to the confrontation. Tons of abilities are cast, huge amounts of calculations must be done, and the servers choke to death. I really think this is mostly about that.

As for PVE, clearly, many current mechanics will not be survivable. The best examples are the end burn in vHoF (though a lot of that last fight is pretty heal check) and the end burn in vCR. Some 4 man stuff will also be sketchy. Good luck in vBRP. Clears will plummet, and raid guilds will disband, but history tells us the ZOS geniuses won't change their mind. Remember, there used to be enough raiders that leaderboards for the weekly not only filled but were quite competitive. They already can't have 1/4th the raiders that they used to judging from that. What I think raiders will do because of the heal changes is 4 things.

1) Not run with healers in even more content:
Really, in any 4 man content without a hard heal check we mostly do this anyway. This game is just exponentially easier with higher dps almost everywhere because 80% of mechanics are clock based and only 20% are health % based. Furthermore, DPS do not really have lacking heals in this game. Most load outs can have pretty significant passive self heals with little dps sacrificed. On the extreme end, I had a stam sorc that could do 6k hps sustained and it didn't even utilize all the "healing" stam morphs. That thing was comically easy in vMA and made me LOL when anybody said magnb or magsorc were easiest. Sure, most builds are lower but getting to 3k hps is not particularly hard on probably any stam build using healing morphs of damage skills (unlike mag damage skills that heal most stam ones actually do good damage) and a few mag ones (sorc and DK come to mind as self healing well without big dps sacrifice).

2) Add some more sustain to builds:
This will probably come mostly by adding a heavy to rotations but more sustain will need to exist with no orbs / healing springs (resource return from springs is essentially being eliminated in a little noted change.) Builds will have to get sustain where they can for each individual build. Race changes, VO or FGD sets, and heavies are probably the cheapest ways as adding straight up regen to your stats through food, enchants, or set bonuses is a downright terrible deal.

3) Not do the broken, unbalanced, content:
Really, few run vHoF or vBRP right now anyway. All the gear in vHoF, and almost all of it in vBRP, is not really very good anyway. vCR, though it has some better gear, is also a sticky situation as it only drops perfected jewelry in +3 and you have to get to +1 to get anything but mixmatched worthless weapons of the wrong sets. I ran that thing a few months and never got exactly 1 usable weapon from that drop.

4) Speaking of vCR+3, more players will probably run cheats:
Have you seen some of the try hard videos in vCR+3? Love how those players take 1/3rd of the damage I do from unavoidable oblivion damage mechanics. I guess you will only need 1/3rd the heals if you run some cheats to only take 1/3rd the damage. Clearly, it is already popular. Frustrate people some more and I expect you will make it more so. Certainly, when resource sustain took a huge nerf with morrowind it seemed the prevalence of cheats took a massive jump. Why not again. ZOS breaks something in game. Players alter a few numbers and "fix" it.

All in all, the changes look terrible to me in general, but the healing ones take the cake for the worst.

Seraphayel · July 2019

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

What players like you fail to understand (the Vet Trial crowd) is that not everything revolves around you / your opinion / your experience based on Veteran Trials. So yes, the “best raid PvE healers in game“ might agree, but you’re just a (small) part of the healing community overall. And I am sure it’s exactly you who can and will adapt to the changes easier than others.

I don’t say it’s not an important factor, it is, but there’s way more than that and way more to the game overall.

And I‘ve yet to see some suggestions besides “don’t change anything“. There were some of the “best healers“ that indeed tried to suggest changes (like a stacking cost increase for Grand Healing a la Streak instead of the changes ZOS made) but the overall majority does nothing but complain and request to keep the status quo. If you’re one of the best healers in game, try and come up with suggestions others than that regarding Grand Healing / Orbs (maybe you did and I missed them by the variety of threads on this topic).

LadyNalcarya · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

What players like you fail to understand (the Vet Trial crowd) is that not everything revolves around you / your opinion / your experience based on Veteran Trials. So yes, the “best raid PvE healers in game“ might agree, but you’re just a (small) part of the healing community overall. And I am sure it’s exactly you who can and will adapt to the changes easier than others.

I don’t say it’s not an important factor, it is, but there’s way more than that and way more to the game overall.

And I‘ve yet to see some suggestions besides “don’t change anything“. There were some of the “best healers“ that indeed tried to suggest changes (like a stacking cost increase for Grand Healing a la Streak instead of the changes ZOS made) but the overall majority does nothing but complain and request to keep the status quo. If you’re one of the best healers in game, try and come up with suggestions others than that regarding Grand Healing / Orbs (maybe you did and I missed them by the variety of threads on this topic).

You're assuming that those healers do not care about general population. But most of us do, endgame raid community needs fresh blood just like any other. I can assure you, if you're raiding with one of the top guilds, it's not a problem to swap some skills/swap a character if it's nerfed too hard.
But what about progression groups? What about people who are now working on clearing vMoL/vHoF/etc? Do you really think that only the best guilds deserve clearing these trials? If so, that's actually terribly elitist.
I personally don't even have a horse in this race since I quit competitive raiding, but I healed enough vet dlc content and joined enough training runs to know that this change is going to cripple average teams. Not the best guilds, not the meta players, it will be average players who will get hit the hardest. I've seen what Morrowind did to the community back in the days.
Maybe you're hoping that your non-meta healer will be more welcome in trial and dungeon groups. But it won't be the case, if anything, this change only promotes dps meta (and more strict meta in general).

As for "balancing the game around raids"... Of course, the game should be balanced in a way that allows players to clear the hardest content if they want to. It's only fair: if player characters can clear the most difficult trials, then they can clear anything else. I do not think that only the best of the best deserve that sweet loot and trial skins. The game is supposed to be fun for as many people as possible, it's not a "survival of the fittest" scenario.

But of course you will keep dismissing my arguments and my questions, because you don't seem to have an answer for them...

iLLcrime · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Heelie wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

your side is represented by people with little to no experience healing vet trials. While ours is backed up by data and the best healers in the game

What players like you fail to understand (the Vet Trial crowd) is that not everything revolves around you / your opinion / your experience based on Veteran Trials. So yes, the “best raid PvE healers in game“ might agree, but you’re just a (small) part of the healing community overall. And I am sure it’s exactly you who can and will adapt to the changes easier than others.

How is it that you feel the changes are good, when they take out a piece of the end game content and make it unable to complete due to mechanics, or off-meta class healers who don't have the tools to "adapt" to the changes? You said "it doesn't just revolve around the vet trial crowd" but somehow think that it revolves around the rest of the player base? How was the pre-nerf healers making your game play so bad that they needed a nerf?

RealPhoenix · July 2019

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You're assuming that those healers do not care about general population. But most of us do, endgame raid community needs fresh blood just like any other. I can assure you, if you're raiding with one of the top guilds, it's not a problem to swap some skills/swap a character if it's nerfed too hard.
But what about progression groups? What about people who are now working on clearing vMoL/vHoF/etc? Do you really think that only the best guilds deserve clearing these trials? If so, that's actually terribly elitist.
I personally don't even have a horse in this race since I quit competitive raiding, but I healed enough vet dlc content and joined enough training runs to know that this change is going to cripple average teams. Not the best guilds, not the meta players, it will be average players who will get hit the hardest. I've seen what Morrowind did to the community back in the days.
Maybe you're hoping that your non-meta healer will be more welcome in trial and dungeon groups. But it won't be the case, if anything, this change only promotes dps meta.

As for "balancing the game around raids"... Of course, the game should be balanced in a way that allows players to clear the hardest content if they want to. It's only fair: if player characters can clear the most difficult trials, then they can clear anything else. I do not think that only the best of the best deserve that sweet loot and trial skins. The game is supposed to be fun for as many people as possible, it's not a "survival of the fittest" scenario.

But of course you will keep dismissing my arguments and my questions, because you don't seem to have an answer for them...

Ah come on, you really think because of this change people wont clear trials / dlc dungeons anymore? Lol.
First of all, in dungeons, a full healer is rarely needed. Most people run with 3 or even 4 dps and facepalm the dungeons anyway, killing the bosses before most mechanics even happen. This is also true for most current DLC dungeons.

For vet trials, its a different story, but it just requires thinking out of the box. I would assume that @Heelie who I know quite well can also get off his rage horse a bit and just think of different options and accept that the heal stacking was indeed very strong. With the changes coming to orbs in the upcoming patch (I don´t think this is the right approach to it cause it gives too many resources for your group with too little cost attached, but well) the sustain problems are already gone. Healing will obviously still be a lot harder as orbs provided the main HoT source in End-Game PvE, but I´ve stated earlier in this thread that people will find other options.

I am not sure the approach to the orb change is the right one, but I am definitely behind the change to Springs and the general direction.

LadyNalcarya · July 2019

Fr3ak1n0ut wrote: »

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

You're assuming that those healers do not care about general population. But most of us do, endgame raid community needs fresh blood just like any other. I can assure you, if you're raiding with one of the top guilds, it's not a problem to swap some skills/swap a character if it's nerfed too hard.
But what about progression groups? What about people who are now working on clearing vMoL/vHoF/etc? Do you really think that only the best guilds deserve clearing these trials? If so, that's actually terribly elitist.
I personally don't even have a horse in this race since I quit competitive raiding, but I healed enough vet dlc content and joined enough training runs to know that this change is going to cripple average teams. Not the best guilds, not the meta players, it will be average players who will get hit the hardest. I've seen what Morrowind did to the community back in the days.
Maybe you're hoping that your non-meta healer will be more welcome in trial and dungeon groups. But it won't be the case, if anything, this change only promotes dps meta.

As for "balancing the game around raids"... Of course, the game should be balanced in a way that allows players to clear the hardest content if they want to. It's only fair: if player characters can clear the most difficult trials, then they can clear anything else. I do not think that only the best of the best deserve that sweet loot and trial skins. The game is supposed to be fun for as many people as possible, it's not a "survival of the fittest" scenario.

But of course you will keep dismissing my arguments and my questions, because you don't seem to have an answer for them...

Ah come on, you really think because of this change people wont clear trials / dlc dungeons anymore? Lol.
First of all, in dungeons, a full healer is rarely needed. Most people run with 3 or even 4 dps and facepalm the dungeons anyway, killing the bosses before most mechanics even happen.

For vet trials, its a different story, but it just requires thinking out of the box. I would assume that @Heelie who I know quite well can also get off his rage horse a bit and just think of different options and accept that the heal stacking was indeed very strong. With the changes coming to orbs in the upcoming patch (I don´t think this is the right approach to it cause it gives too many resources for your group with too little cost attached, but well) the sustain problems are already gone. Healing will obviously still be a lot harder as orbs provided the main HoT source in End-Game PvE, but I´ve stated earlier in this thread that people will find other options.

I am not sure the approach to the orb change is the right one, but I am definitely behind the change to Springs and the general direction.

Yes I really think this will cripple average players. I've seen this happening already, and so did other players who have been around during Morrowind patch.

Yes, 3 dd meta in 4 man content is already a thing. Healers are not really needed in dungeons. This situation should be fixed (so that healers can enjoy the content too), it certainly shouldn't be made even worse.

And if vet trial healing is so easy and effortless, then why so few people manage to clear them? Why don't you have Zmaja's skin, for example? Or maybe it's not so easy after all?
Thing is, if you look at the best score runs on Youtube, there's a lot of insane healing and dps going on. That's because those players are literally the best of the best. But if you tried joining progression groups, you'd see that it's not the case for average players. Youtube videos and public eso logs are only a tip of the iceberg and are not representative of the majority of playerbase. There's so many videos of people getting 90-100+k parses on a trial dummy... But we both know very well that those players are part of a very small minority. Same with healing, average progression groups do wipe in execute phase of vHoF, for example, and even have to use Novas to reduce incoming damage (which means that even now their healing is not enough).

RavenSworn · July 2019

Did a vet dungeon, heal was more or less the same. Did about 20% of the group dps too. Tank build for being tanky, dps @50-60k each. I heal as normal really.

1) the Orbs don't have a cool down, they dissappear when you cast a new one. Same goes with springs.

2) I used mutagen instead of rapids so my view might be skewed. But it does target the lowest health ally, albeit I keep my allies in front of me so I didn't know if it does target allies behind me.

3) healing ward is an excellent stop gap now, since it heals for the remaining amount as long as its up. We purposely let the tank take some hits, and back to full health with 2 1/2 buttons, why 1/2? Because I basically keep mutagen up at all times. Once the health drops, a ward then a prayer and boom, he is back to full health.

4) I was also using a sorc healer, no pets. Quick Siphon, Orbs, empowered ward, liquid flood, shattering prison, destroy staff back bar. Mutagen, healing ward, prayer, springs, ring of preservation, resto front bar.

I have to say though, ive used matriarch for the heals before but it's... Buggy at best since they can actually bug out events and also their positioning can be abit dicey. (it's not whether they can attack the boss well but more so to grab the majority of allies in the burst heal).

Hope this helps.

iLLcrime · July 2019

RavenSworn wrote: »

Did a vet dungeon, heal was more or less the same. Did about 20% of the group dps too. Tank build for being tanky, dps @50-60k each. I heal as normal really.

1) the Orbs don't have a cool down, they dissappear when you cast a new one. Same goes with springs.

2) I used mutagen instead of rapids so my view might be skewed. But it does target the lowest health ally, albeit I keep my allies in front of me so I didn't know if it does target allies behind me.

3) healing ward is an excellent stop gap now, since it heals for the remaining amount as long as its up. We purposely let the tank take some hits, and back to full health with 2 1/2 buttons, why 1/2? Because I basically keep mutagen up at all times. Once the health drops, a ward then a prayer and boom, he is back to full health.

4) I was also using a sorc healer, no pets. Quick Siphon, Orbs, empowered ward, liquid flood, shattering prison, destroy staff back bar. Mutagen, healing ward, prayer, springs, ring of preservation, resto front bar.

I have to say though, ive used matriarch for the heals before but it's... Buggy at best since they can actually bug out events and also their positioning can be abit dicey. (it's not whether they can attack the boss well but more so to grab the majority of allies in the burst heal).

Hope this helps.

While I appreciate the post and view from the 4 man content on the pts, the problem is in the vet trials area mostly.

code65536 · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

This is like saying, "I oppose vaccinations. You support vaccinations. I have people who agree with me, you have people who agree with you. Our opinions are on equal footing."

No. One side has the backing of expertise. The other is fueled by ignorance and misconception.

Jeremy · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

The changes are bad in your opinion. They’re good in mine. Your standpoint has many supporter, mine has too. Maybe both sides shouldn’t be so focused on their own view and be open for the other side? I’ll try to.

This is like saying, "I oppose vaccinations. You support vaccinations. I have people who agree with me, you have people who agree with you. Our opinions are on equal footing."

No. One side has the backing of expertise. The other is fueled by ignorance and misconception.

The point was there is more to this game than AoE phases during a veteran trial. That is not the only realm of expertise that matters.

There are many healers who may benefit from these changes depending on the content they are involved in. Your side seems to believe everything revolves around 12 people during an AoE phase in a trial. And while it's fine to bring that up - it's not fine to dismiss everyone else who likes these changes because it benefits the content they are involved in as ignorant and misconceived.