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Evasion (base morph of Shuffle) - 5.1.0 - Major Expedition Too Much
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templesus✭✭✭✭✭
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Now go main a Magicka Warden without Shalks, and a Magicka Necromancer without Blastbones.“Stop posting” because you know what I’m saying is the only logical counter to your argument. And I never put any words in your mouth, simply said don’t use that argument. I will continue to give my 2 cents as long as nerfs are asked for.
Eh, it seemed like you were implying that's what I was doing.
The reason I asked you to stop posting was because your argument is basically not addressing the substance of my argument. You're repeating, "Shuffle can't be nerfed, because this new iteration of Forward Momentum exists. If Shuffle loses Major Expedition, people won't use Rally/Shuffle."
The entire argument hinges on subjective valuation of Rally burst heal, Shuffle's extra 1-3 seconds of immunity, and Shuffles ability to be placed outside of the 2h bar. There's no real point in arguing back-and-forth about those subjective values when the CORE discussion is focused on poor game design in the form of unconscious mobility/survivability.
It's like you're continuously saying "This instance of poor design is fine, because if it is nerfed, there is no reason to use it." That's not even necessarily true, but like I said, no point in arguing about the subjective value in using it or not using it. I would rather address the poor design. Can this ability be changed so that it's still valuable to Medium Armor users without unconscious bursts of mobility/survivability? Does it need that? That's what I'm here to discuss. If you're saying that this iteration of the ability is completely well-designed, then that's something I'd be interested in you elaborating on.
Look, I main Stamplar and a bit of Magplar when I feel like hopping on a magicka toon (although I’ve played pretty much all classes) and it’s literally the only class in the game who’s spammable is an AOE, and I’ve truthfully dropped Jabs on both toons for dizzying and clench because of Major Evasion’s ease of accessibility so I do no damage and when I hit someone they get Major expedition and basically become untouchable.
And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.
Me personally? I’m fine with it as is. I’ve gladly traded in my class spammable on PTS for the sake of being able to move and I am not complaining.
I also suggested having the Major Expedition be limited to when the ability is first "cast," and/or having an internal cooldown to restrict the uptime. But even then, I think Shuffle would make the Hasty Retreat passive from bows obsolete...unless of course people start coming up with a viable way to play heavy armor archer builds.
Neither ability is neither classes spammable...Not sure exactly what you’re trying to say. Both classes mainly use shock/flame clench/reach as a spammable (flame clench next patch).1 -
olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I see no issue with Major Expedition. Remember that medium armor's primary defense is Dodge, which is useless against AoEs.
Magicka has its snare removal tool, which gives Major Expedition on demand.
Maybe, that will finally change. Medium armor has been the weakest armor type for good amount of time.
Agree. Outside of pure ganking, medium armor has been lackluster for a good long while now.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
wheem_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
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When did I say they were spammables? I invited you to try killing someone without really frequent use of those abilities on those classes. I guess if Entropy, Soul Trap, and Destructive Reach go live as-is (and you utilize Drain Essence or Arctic Blast for CC) that could theoretically change. But it's still much more realistic for a Magicka Templar to do without Puncturing Sweeps than it is for a Magicka Warden to do without Shalks, or a Magicka Necromancer to do without Blastbones (although sometimes you end up doing without Blastbones anyway, thanks to all its issues).
Now go main a Magicka Warden without Shalks, and a Magicka Necromancer without Blastbones.“Stop posting” because you know what I’m saying is the only logical counter to your argument. And I never put any words in your mouth, simply said don’t use that argument. I will continue to give my 2 cents as long as nerfs are asked for.
Eh, it seemed like you were implying that's what I was doing.
The reason I asked you to stop posting was because your argument is basically not addressing the substance of my argument. You're repeating, "Shuffle can't be nerfed, because this new iteration of Forward Momentum exists. If Shuffle loses Major Expedition, people won't use Rally/Shuffle."
The entire argument hinges on subjective valuation of Rally burst heal, Shuffle's extra 1-3 seconds of immunity, and Shuffles ability to be placed outside of the 2h bar. There's no real point in arguing back-and-forth about those subjective values when the CORE discussion is focused on poor game design in the form of unconscious mobility/survivability.
It's like you're continuously saying "This instance of poor design is fine, because if it is nerfed, there is no reason to use it." That's not even necessarily true, but like I said, no point in arguing about the subjective value in using it or not using it. I would rather address the poor design. Can this ability be changed so that it's still valuable to Medium Armor users without unconscious bursts of mobility/survivability? Does it need that? That's what I'm here to discuss. If you're saying that this iteration of the ability is completely well-designed, then that's something I'd be interested in you elaborating on.
Look, I main Stamplar and a bit of Magplar when I feel like hopping on a magicka toon (although I’ve played pretty much all classes) and it’s literally the only class in the game who’s spammable is an AOE, and I’ve truthfully dropped Jabs on both toons for dizzying and clench because of Major Evasion’s ease of accessibility so I do no damage and when I hit someone they get Major expedition and basically become untouchable.
And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.
Me personally? I’m fine with it as is. I’ve gladly traded in my class spammable on PTS for the sake of being able to move and I am not complaining.
I also suggested having the Major Expedition be limited to when the ability is first "cast," and/or having an internal cooldown to restrict the uptime. But even then, I think Shuffle would make the Hasty Retreat passive from bows obsolete...unless of course people start coming up with a viable way to play heavy armor archer builds.
Neither ability is neither classes spammable...Not sure exactly what you’re trying to say. Both classes mainly use shock/flame clench/reach as a spammable (flame clench next patch).1 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah, I and a few others I've talked to have decided that if Jabs isn't a dead morph for Stam now, it will be with this PTS. Dizzying is looking better and better.And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.
I can get behind an on demand, purposeful cast of Major Expedition. It would be much better design than the unconscious burst of mobility/survivability mechanic proposed currently. Like I mentioned previously, I assume ZOS has already internally decided against granting Shuffle on demand Major Expedition and deemed it too powerful, given that Medium Armor users are already the most mobile in the game. I can definitely see the argument for that. However, if the morph is for sure going to grant Major Expedition, I would absolutely prefer if it was a conscious decision made by the player at the time of activation.
Yeah, I was also thinking about the AOE activation of Major Expedition being limited to the Root/Snare immunity window. Still, I think that would be a band-aid fix.I also suggested having the Major Expedition be limited to when the ability is first "cast," and/or having an internal cooldown to restrict the uptime. But even then, I think Shuffle would make the Hasty Retreat passive from bows obsolete...unless of course people start coming up with a viable way to play heavy armor archer builds.
Shuffle granting ANY Major Expedition diminishes the value of Bow's Hasty Retreat. I agree. Bow and DW users, both of whom have had reliable access to on demand Major Expedition, have comprised most of the Medium Armor users these past several years. Suddenly granting Major Expedition outside of weapon skills is MUCH less a buff to pre-existing Medium Armor builds that already included it, who would like to see value added to Medium Armor in another way. That said, as mentioned previously, if the morph is for sure going to grant Major Expedition, I would absolutely prefer if it was a conscious decision made by the player at the time of activation."
It already is the hardest armor type to lock down.ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »Medium armor is supposed to be the most mobile of the armor types. It should be the fastest and hardest to lock down for real. I tested it an Others had no problem landing hits. If someones fighting you theyll be in range at some point keeps your buffs up an wait for your burst window.
Testing the mobility/survivability of Medium Armor in a 1v1 centered around a duel flag is hilariously misconceived and disingenuous.
Agreed, Medium Armor has been underperforming for awhile. That doesn't make it good game design to buff it with an unconscious burst of mobility/survivability. This is not thoughtful, active gameplay that this patch wants to encourage, and it is frustrating for opponents who are using their core abilities as intended.Agree. Outside of pure ganking, medium armor has been lackluster for a good long while now.
Medium Armor has already received a line of buffs and relative buffs. Shuffle's root/snare immunity window was doubled with the cost decreased. Heavy Armor users are losing a great deal of value in their crutch/carry sets. SnB users are losing their spammable Major Defile and lost damage on their main spammables. Vigor self-healing buff will be a substantial survivability buff for the already most mobile Armor Type in the game. All Medium Armor users will have access to AoE stam-costing Fear in Turn Evil. Apparently Onslaught is going to be an incredibly strong ultimate. You get the point. It's looking much better for Medium Armor, even without this conditional, braindead Major Expedition mechanic.1 -
katorga✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭HackTheMinotaur wrote: »Whoever dropped 7 seconds of major expedition on Elude clearly missed the memo from last year’s speed nerfs. That’s an easy 100% uptime in any Battleground match. What happened to limiting major expedition to 4 seconds? Given this they should just revert speed potions back to 45 seconds as well.
Sorry I am snarky today. It’s just that changes like this show no commitment to consistency or direction in Combat design. We all adapted to the complete gutting of major expedition from EVERY skill in the game for almost a year. Now they bring it back passively, for doing nothing but getting nicked by one AOE tick? Really? 🧐
The player base is not consistent. First it cried to nerf speed, then they complained endlessly about the snare meta. Simple fact is that speed is fun, snares are not, so a wise game developer who wants to make money will opt for the fun option. Two archetypes are always the most popular in mmo's, those with stealth and those with movement speed.
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Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.
Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.
Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.
Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.
tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.
Agree with you. In open world jabs is horrid at times none of my jabs hit. If you have over 150 latency some of your jabs no longer hit. It get worse as latency increases. I mained a stam dk for years, and played all stam classes, the stam templar is extremely punished at the moment in latency.PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
ZOS_RogerJ✭✭✭✭Just a friendly reminder, as a few posts have been removed, that it’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭From a PVP perspective, I am very happy in general with this PTS' patch notes. ZOS is pushing the game back in the direction of active gameplay rather than passive gameplay, taking significant strides to widen the gap between the skill floor and skill ceiling for the first time in a years. There are some lingering concerns (pun intended), such as healing and mitigation remaining too impactful, but the concern I want to touch on here is Evasion's Major Expedition.
Changes are as follows:Evasion: Reduced the base cost of this ability to 3213 from 3672. Also added a new function if you are hit with an Area of Effect attack while the ability is active, you gain Major Expedition for 2 seconds.
Elude (morph): Each piece of Medium Armor now increases the duration of the Major Evasion by 2 seconds, up from 1 second. Elude also increases the duration of the Major Expedition, but only by 1 second per piece of Medium Armor.
Shuffle (morph): Increased the snare and immobilization immunity granted per piece of Medium Armor worn to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.
Reducing the cost of the ability and doubling the effectiveness of the snare/root immunity was a massive buff and much needed for the underrepresented Medium Armor users. However, the Major Expedition for 2 seconds (on Shuffle; 7-9 seconds on Elude) on taking Area of Effect damage is superfluous, its implementation will be awkward, and by design it is not in the spirit of this patch's overarching changes emphasizing active gameplay.
Imagine a Templar wanting to use Jabs on someone who has recently used Shuffle. Not only does your AoE damage from Jabs get reduced.. not only do you NOT snare the target.. you actually BUFF your target with Major Expedition for 2 seconds. A Sorc using Hurricane on top of someone using Shuffle? Perma-Major Expedition. Proc sets like Grothdarr or Auroran? Major Expedition. Do YOU want Major Expedition? Run through some Caltrops! Awkward and counterintuitive design. This game is littered with AOE in the current meta, and as a result, uptime on Major Expedition will predictably be ridiculous. The fact that it's triggered passively is not in line with the thoughtful, active gameplay that the rest of this patch's changes are attempting to encourage. It is too powerful a buff to be given out for basically free. That is why it has been made so scarce in the recent past. Medium Armor users should not be rewarded with a powerful mobility (and therefore survivability) buff UNCONSCIOUSLY when they are hit by opponents who are using their kits/builds as designed.
If there is to be any uncontrolled movement speed at all, I personally recommend that the movement speed is reduced and given a longer duration, like how the Wood Elf passive was treated (it was changed from 20% move speed to 10% move speed increase with an extended duration). For example, on taking AoE damage, Evasion and morphs could give Minor Expedition (10% move speed) for 6 seconds. This reduces the potency of what would amount to absurd passive mobility while still granting value to Medium Armor users spread out over a longer duration. On top of that, this will allow Medium Armor users who have OTHER (read: active) sources of Major Expedition an opportunity to further specialize in their niche of mobility. This would result in more thoughtful, active gameplay from Medium Armor users and would also be less awkward and frustrating to play against for many opponents of said Medium Armor users.
What are your thoughts?
Absolutly agree and there is too big immunity duration here also. this skill is very important even on Live now, And, in next patch even if any expedition attached - clear OP.
With absolutly ugly animation. Hate this transparency so much, one of my personal sourcs of frustration in the game - that i'm forced to use it and to not see my character in fight...
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Wrobel's ideology?all classes. pc platform, dissapointed.1 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭RighteousBacon wrote: »
Yeah, IF ZOS insists on attaching an AOE reactive movement speed buff to Shuffle (which I've been very clearly that I do not endorse), it could be an unnamed movement speed buff, so it stacks with Minor/Major Expedition.
I was mostly just fishing for thoughts on the design of the ability, gauging people's reactions to a powerful mobility/survivability buff that the user does not consciously have to activate that WILL have high/disjointed uptime against opponents who are using their builds as intended.0 -
templesus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭JusticeSouldier wrote: »From a PVP perspective, I am very happy in general with this PTS' patch notes. ZOS is pushing the game back in the direction of active gameplay rather than passive gameplay, taking significant strides to widen the gap between the skill floor and skill ceiling for the first time in a years. There are some lingering concerns (pun intended), such as healing and mitigation remaining too impactful, but the concern I want to touch on here is Evasion's Major Expedition.
Changes are as follows:Evasion: Reduced the base cost of this ability to 3213 from 3672. Also added a new function if you are hit with an Area of Effect attack while the ability is active, you gain Major Expedition for 2 seconds.
Elude (morph): Each piece of Medium Armor now increases the duration of the Major Evasion by 2 seconds, up from 1 second. Elude also increases the duration of the Major Expedition, but only by 1 second per piece of Medium Armor.
Shuffle (morph): Increased the snare and immobilization immunity granted per piece of Medium Armor worn to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.
Reducing the cost of the ability and doubling the effectiveness of the snare/root immunity was a massive buff and much needed for the underrepresented Medium Armor users. However, the Major Expedition for 2 seconds (on Shuffle; 7-9 seconds on Elude) on taking Area of Effect damage is superfluous, its implementation will be awkward, and by design it is not in the spirit of this patch's overarching changes emphasizing active gameplay.
Imagine a Templar wanting to use Jabs on someone who has recently used Shuffle. Not only does your AoE damage from Jabs get reduced.. not only do you NOT snare the target.. you actually BUFF your target with Major Expedition for 2 seconds. A Sorc using Hurricane on top of someone using Shuffle? Perma-Major Expedition. Proc sets like Grothdarr or Auroran? Major Expedition. Do YOU want Major Expedition? Run through some Caltrops! Awkward and counterintuitive design. This game is littered with AOE in the current meta, and as a result, uptime on Major Expedition will predictably be ridiculous. The fact that it's triggered passively is not in line with the thoughtful, active gameplay that the rest of this patch's changes are attempting to encourage. It is too powerful a buff to be given out for basically free. That is why it has been made so scarce in the recent past. Medium Armor users should not be rewarded with a powerful mobility (and therefore survivability) buff UNCONSCIOUSLY when they are hit by opponents who are using their kits/builds as designed.
If there is to be any uncontrolled movement speed at all, I personally recommend that the movement speed is reduced and given a longer duration, like how the Wood Elf passive was treated (it was changed from 20% move speed to 10% move speed increase with an extended duration). For example, on taking AoE damage, Evasion and morphs could give Minor Expedition (10% move speed) for 6 seconds. This reduces the potency of what would amount to absurd passive mobility while still granting value to Medium Armor users spread out over a longer duration. On top of that, this will allow Medium Armor users who have OTHER (read: active) sources of Major Expedition an opportunity to further specialize in their niche of mobility. This would result in more thoughtful, active gameplay from Medium Armor users and would also be less awkward and frustrating to play against for many opponents of said Medium Armor users.
What are your thoughts?
Absolutly agree and there is too big immunity duration here also. this skill is very important even on Live now, And, in next patch even if any expedition attached - clear OP.
With absolutly ugly animation. Hate this transparency so much, one of my personal sourcs of frustration in the game - that i'm forced to use it and to not see my character in fight...
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Wrobel's ideology?
Well actually If you’ve used the ability on PTS you’d know that after using Rally/Forward, it immediately gets rid of the Shuffle transparency.
Not sure why people are on the PTS forums and aren’t testing on PTS lol. Unless they just haven’t got to it yet, idk.0 -
Lyar09✭✭✭✭✭“Stop posting” because you know what I’m saying is the only logical counter to your argument. And I never put any words in your mouth, simply said don’t use that argument. I will continue to give my 2 cents as long as nerfs are asked for.
Eh, it seemed like you were implying that's what I was doing.
The reason I asked you to stop posting was because your argument is basically not addressing the substance of my argument. You're repeating, "Shuffle can't be nerfed, because this new iteration of Forward Momentum exists. If Shuffle loses Major Expedition, people won't use Rally/Shuffle."
The entire argument hinges on subjective valuation of Rally burst heal, Shuffle's extra 1-3 seconds of immunity, and Shuffles ability to be placed outside of the 2h bar. There's no real point in arguing back-and-forth about those subjective values when the CORE discussion is focused on poor game design in the form of unconscious mobility/survivability.
It's like you're continuously saying "This instance of poor design is fine, because if it is nerfed, there is no reason to use it." That's not even necessarily true, but like I said, no point in arguing about the subjective value in using it or not using it. I would rather address the poor design. Can this ability be changed so that it's still valuable to Medium Armor users without unconscious bursts of mobility/survivability? Does it need that? That's what I'm here to discuss. If you're saying that this iteration of the ability is completely well-designed, then that's something I'd be interested in you elaborating on.
Look, I main Stamplar and a bit of Magplar when I feel like hopping on a magicka toon (although I’ve played pretty much all classes) and it’s literally the only class in the game who’s spammable is an AOE, and I’ve truthfully dropped Jabs on both toons for dizzying and clench because of Major Evasion’s ease of accessibility so I do no damage and when I hit someone they get Major expedition and basically become untouchable.
And y’know what? I would rather not have jabs/sweeps then to lose major expedition on shuffle. That’s how important the ability to move is to me as a solo/small scale player. I already stated if the AOE mechanic feels to broken, then I suggest changing it to Major expedition on CAST, 1 second for each piece of medium armor equipped. This way it can be more comparable to RaT but with 1-3 seconds of longer duration, which is logical because medium is SUPPOSED to be fast.
Me personally? I’m fine with it as is. I’ve gladly traded in my class spammable on PTS for the sake of being able to move and I am not complaining.
So are you suggesting that myself (Stamsorc Main) drops my armor buff (Hurricane) in order to cope with this new mechanic?
Let’s be real here. The skill has way too much utility for the cost. Adding the Expedition has made targeting other players on my Stamsorc practically impossible. Didn’t Zos nerf movement speed with swift not even a year ago?
For those saying that it should stay because medium is supposed to be mobile need to look at the damn passives. You literally get movement speed while sprinting.Edited by Lyar09 on July 10, 2019 1:20AMPC/NA | twitch.tv/ohhlyar | youtube.com/lyaryt4 -
ProzTh3Almighty✭✭✭If the concern is the way its procd then hink about why. If aoes are undodgeable, and medium armors defense is dodge, then aoes are a counter to medium. Hard counter. So major expedition added allows medium armor to have a counter to its counter. However that said there should be a cool down implemented for a 50% uptime instead of permanent uptime. 2 seconds on 2 seconds off would be the perfect balance i think.
Edited cuz my iphone has little buttons. -_-Edited by ProzTh3Almighty on July 10, 2019 6:40AM0 -
ProzTh3Almighty✭✭✭Movement speed while sprinting is for running from a zerg not while fight. Who sprints around while weaving in a fight? Literally the most useless part of medium armors passives besides the sneak passive in regards to actively fighting. However i feel you on your stam-sorc complaint but its not that bad #tested up your sensitivity an swing that mouse baby! Land those dizzys crisp like, plus you can cast a whole nother dizzy while your opponents mid air!!!2
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Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I see no problems with major expedition. Medium armor suppose to be elusive fast using dodge roll etc against aoe dodge roll useless. When I’m getting attack by a group my biggest worries are is there a templar or dk in that group I play stamblade and magblade.1 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭So are you suggesting that myself (Stamsorc Main) drops my armor buff (Hurricane) in order to cope with this new mechanic?
Let’s be real here. The skill has way too much utility for the cost. Adding the Expedition has made targeting other players on my Stamsorc practically impossible. Didn’t Zos nerf movement speed with swift not even a year ago?
For those saying that it should stay because medium is supposed to be mobile need to look at the damn passives. You literally get movement speed while sprinting.
Exactly, it's unreasonable to expect someone to forego the use of their core abilities in the face of basically any Medium Armor opponent & this thoughtless mobility/survival mechanic.
I agree with your agreement, brother.I agree with this post brother.
Yeah, maybe Major Expedition is fine, but do you agree with the current proposed conditions of its activation? This post isn't just about Major Expedition - it's about the design behind the ability.Deathlord92 wrote: »I see no problems with major expedition. Medium armor suppose to be elusive fast using dodge roll etc against aoe dodge roll useless. When I’m getting attack by a group my biggest worries are is there a templar or dk in that group I play stamblade and magblade.ProzTh3Almighty wrote: »If the concern is the way its procd then hink about why. If aoes are undodgeable, and medium armors defense is dodge, then aoes are a counter to medium. Hard counter. So major expedition added allows medium armor to have a counter to its counter. However that said there should be a cool down implemented for a 50% uptime instead of permanent uptime. 2 seconds on 2 seconds off would be the perfect balance i think.
Medium Armor's sole defense isn't dodge. I'm not sure why people keep framing it like that.
There's Shuffle's Major Evasion (HUGE mitigation against AOE), Lingering Health potions, Protective Jewelry, some decent base level of Physical/Spell Resist, stacking of Major/Minor Protection, improved self-vigor, etc. Dodge rolling is not the critical defense it used to be for Medium Armor. Someone suggested a cooldown earlier, but I might like the following post's suggestion a bit more.
This is definitely an interesting solution. Although I still don't like the unconscious activation of a powerful mobility/survival tool, this would eliminate near permanent uptime of the buff against various users.usmcjdking wrote: »Exp is fine but needs to be on direct AOE damage.
You're suggesting that Major Expedition only proc on abilities like Arrow Spray, Carve, Engulfing Flames, Dawnbreaker of Smiting, Ferocious Leap, Steel Tornado/Whirling Blades, etc. That's far less oppressive than any and all AOE abilities, and it eliminates the near-permanent uptime of Major Expedition against builds who are using their core abilities/build as intended. Does Biting Jabs or its first tick count as Direct AOE damage? Overall, this is a solution worth investigating if they decide to keep with the unconscious movement speed design.
Edited by Yiko on July 10, 2019 4:50PM0 -
del9✭✭✭✭Agreed. Major Expedition overloads this skill. MajExp was toned down in Potions because the devs felt that major buffs shouldn’t be so easily accessed. Pinning it to evasion will make the buff ubiquitous.PCNA4
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JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭JusticeSouldier wrote: »
Absolutly agree and there is too big immunity duration here also. this skill is very important even on Live now, And, in next patch even if any expedition attached - clear OP.
With absolutly ugly animation. Hate this transparency so much, one of my personal sourcs of frustration in the game - that i'm forced to use it and to not see my character in fight...
@ZOS_BrianWheeler Wrobel's ideology?
Well actually If you’ve used the ability on PTS you’d know that after using Rally/Forward, it immediately gets rid of the Shuffle transparency.
Not sure why people are on the PTS forums and aren’t testing on PTS lol. Unless they just haven’t got to it yet, idk.
Maybe things i asked for and things u write here are not the same?
How your thoughts of using skills at pts, and many years unreliable visual effect of skill connected. except your wish to decrease my words value in such weird way? or what was your motivation?
Do u think removing transparency with Momentum is "works as intended"?
Here my pretended to be objective opinion - such behaviour of skill when another buff remove it's visual effect calls Conflict.
If 2 visual effects can't be drawn together - their visuals are very bad design.
Same as this trash at pts, on live Shuffle with Phantasmal escape on nightblade on the top also removes transparency.
On dk, if u activated Dragon blood first - Shuffle will not be visible whole duration..
And all this is even worse than if visual effect not removed because it force u to rely on addons and have no trust to game itself.
And here I even don't say anything about these skills provide same buffs which is the waste of...
There shoudn't be such things in game, because it's important gameplay information.
is it clear?
Major evasion on momentum is another source of frustration because is absolutly ridiculous addition to this skill, which we were forced to use in 90% of the stamina builds all these years, it deserve to be discussed why it's bad solution in another thread. I don't want Momentum or any another skill to provide 2 additive Major Buffs at the same time. It's very bad design.
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
One of the parts why I love this game - how it looks. Or how incredible it can look if to improve.
Architecture, monstres, characters personification, outfits, housing, epic fights, epic looking and based on cool ideas skills (Dragon leap or Scythe are very nice examples).
it's all about visual effects. We need they work together. Please read this. I really wish to put your attention to these part of Shuffle/ Hurricane, Dragon Blood etc in gameplay tooEdited by JusticeSouldier on July 10, 2019 5:09PMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.0 -
Scamh✭✭✭So are you suggesting that myself (Stamsorc Main) drops my armor buff (Hurricane) in order to cope with this new mechanic?
Let’s be real here. The skill has way too much utility for the cost. Adding the Expedition has made targeting other players on my Stamsorc practically impossible. Didn’t Zos nerf movement speed with swift not even a year ago?
For those saying that it should stay because medium is supposed to be mobile need to look at the damn passives. You literally get movement speed while sprinting.
For hire:
Major Expedition H
will follow you around using my class spammable (jabs) to buff your speed constantly so that YOU can catch the people who You buff constantly
ps i'm cheapThe Upside Down (Stamplar) - Osaka Sewers X (Stamblade) - A Scanner Darkly (Magblade) - Taylor Swiftborn (Stam sorc)5 -
Trian94✭✭✭✭Why is everyone giving Scamh awesomes. Is it because he's a cross dresser?PC EU
Stamina Socerer main - Northam Stormborn0 -
Yiko✭✭✭✭✭So there's definitely NOT a general consensus about whether or not Major Expedition itself is too much utility on Shuffle. That's okay.
People have said things like, "Major Expedition is fine" but haven't elaborated on whether or not the current implementation of that buff is fine, and if it is, why it's fine.
Is there anyone who wants to EXPLICITLY defend the design choice of Major Expedition proccing on any and all AOE damage?0 -
GloryClass RepresentativeI think Major Expedition gives Medium Armor the needed extra benefit to justify using over heavy.
I also think that it should be procc'ed on Direct AoE damage, not AoE pulses. Having a skill like Hurricane proc Major Expedition is way too overtuned. If a skill like Pulsar or S2W did, that seems reasonable.mDK will rise again.
Rebuild Necromancer pet AI.
@Glorious since I have too many characters to list
Ádamant
Strongly against Faction Lock1 -
Abhaya✭✭✭✭I think having it only proc on direct AOE and not ground based or DOT AOE is a good suggestion. That or have it proc on something else that isn’t just laying around all over the battlefield in pretty much every PVP scenario. If they want it to have a proc condition rather than on cast there are a ton of options. Proc on breaking out of CC. Proc on removing / dodging out of an immobilize. Proc on actively using the skill when a snare is already applied to you. Proc on receiving a certain amount or % of damage in a small window. Proc on getting hit by more than one enemy within a window. I could keep going on. That being said evasion desperately needed a buff and the days of permanent snare templar and warden balls in battlegrounds is soon to be over. *laughs in stam sorc*Edited by Abhaya on July 10, 2019 9:04PMAbhaya - PC NA - Ebonheart Pact
Stam Sorc 2-Hand / Bow Build: https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Special:EsoBuildData?id=1691030 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭I think having it only proc on direct AOE and not ground based or DOT AOE is a good suggestion. That or have it proc on something else that isn’t just laying around all over the battlefield in pretty much every PVP scenario. If they want it to have a proc condition rather than on cast there are a ton of options. Proc on breaking out of CC. Proc on removing / dodging out of an immobilize. Proc on actively using the skill when a snare is already applied to you. Proc on receiving a certain amount or % of damage in a small window. Proc on getting hit by more than one enemy within a window. I could keep going on. That being said evasion desperately needed a buff and the days of permanent snare templar and warden balls in battlegrounds is soon to be over. *laughs in stam sorc*
It should. not. proc. expedition at all. in any fkking scenario.
Medium gives very nice mobility with passives.
Immunity to snares gives u a counter to all roots and snares.
Major Evasion gives u really huge aoe mitigation.
Overenouch af
Fkk expedition.
And 5-7 seconds immunity is too much also.
Max immunity time should not be more than 4 seconds.
We already had 8 seconds Forward momentum...Only thing which saved gameplay was - only Wardens had alternative to Rally as a burst heal with a general much less healing potential at all stamina classes than now. Before buffs.
I wish that Zenimax team member who is responsible for this to join Wrobel's new job place.Edited by JusticeSouldier on July 11, 2019 1:11AMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.1 -
JusticeSouldier✭✭✭✭@ZOS_BrianWheeler , @ZOS_Gilliam here screens to show how interact between themselves:
Shuffle and Hurricane/Dragon Blood/ Cloak.
Shuffle become at PTS even more must to use. Make it please to be drawn relevant.
And it doesn't fit to it's function anymore for a years - AOE mitigation is not Invisibility.
Even when it was providing Dodge chance, this transparency was too intensive.
As we see, these skills together are visual garbage.
I personally hate how characters look with all these skills active even not together...Edited by JusticeSouldier on July 11, 2019 1:12AMall classes. pc platform, dissapointed.1 -
master_vanargand✭✭✭✭✭
✭I agree that the visual effect of Evasion is bad.
Evasion should stop being transparent.Edited by master_vanargand on July 11, 2019 1:28AM1
