Evasion (base morph of Shuffle) - 5.1.0 - Major Expedition Too Much

Yiko

From a PVP perspective, I am very happy in general with this PTS' patch notes. ZOS is pushing the game back in the direction of active gameplay rather than passive gameplay, taking significant strides to widen the gap between the skill floor and skill ceiling for the first time in a years. There are some lingering concerns (pun intended), such as healing and mitigation remaining too impactful, but the concern I want to touch on here is Evasion's Major Expedition.

Changes are as follows:

Evasion: Reduced the base cost of this ability to 3213 from 3672. Also added a new function if you are hit with an Area of Effect attack while the ability is active, you gain Major Expedition for 2 seconds.
Elude (morph): Each piece of Medium Armor now increases the duration of the Major Evasion by 2 seconds, up from 1 second. Elude also increases the duration of the Major Expedition, but only by 1 second per piece of Medium Armor.
Shuffle (morph): Increased the snare and immobilization immunity granted per piece of Medium Armor worn to 1 second from 0.5 seconds.

Reducing the cost of the ability and doubling the effectiveness of the snare/root immunity was a massive buff and much needed for the underrepresented Medium Armor users. However, the Major Expedition for 2 seconds (on Shuffle; 7-9 seconds on Elude) on taking Area of Effect damage is superfluous, its implementation will be awkward, and by design it is not in the spirit of this patch's overarching changes emphasizing active gameplay.

Imagine a Templar wanting to use Jabs on someone who has recently used Shuffle. Not only does your AoE damage from Jabs get reduced.. not only do you NOT snare the target.. you actually BUFF your target with Major Expedition for 2 seconds. A Sorc using Hurricane on top of someone using Shuffle? Perma-Major Expedition. Proc sets like Grothdarr or Auroran? Major Expedition. Do YOU want Major Expedition? Run through some Caltrops! Awkward and counterintuitive design. This game is littered with AOE in the current meta, and as a result, uptime on Major Expedition will predictably be ridiculous. The fact that it's triggered passively is not in line with the thoughtful, active gameplay that the rest of this patch's changes are attempting to encourage. It is too powerful a buff to be given out for basically free. That is why it has been made so scarce in the recent past. Medium Armor users should not be rewarded with a powerful mobility (and therefore survivability) buff UNCONSCIOUSLY when they are hit by opponents who are using their kits/builds as designed.

If there is to be any uncontrolled movement speed at all, one solution could be that the movement speed is reduced and given a longer duration, like how the Wood Elf passive was treated (it was changed from 20% move speed to 10% move speed increase with an extended duration). For example, on taking AoE damage, Evasion and morphs could give Minor Expedition (or an unnamed 10% move speed buff) for 6 seconds. This reduces the potency of what would amount to absurd passive mobility while still granting value to Medium Armor users spread out over a longer duration. On top of that, this will allow Medium Armor users who have OTHER (read: active) sources of Major Expedition an opportunity to further specialize in their niche of mobility. This would result in more thoughtful, active gameplay from Medium Armor users and would also be less awkward and frustrating to play against for many opponents of said Medium Armor users.

What are your thoughts?

susmitds

I see no issue with Major Expedition. Remember that medium armor's primary defense is Dodge, which is useless against AoEs.
Magicka has its snare removal tool, which gives Major Expedition on demand.
Maybe, that will finally change. Medium armor has been the weakest armor type for good amount of time.

DisgracefulMind

I think the buffs to the skill were enough and there shouldn't be any source of expedition granted at all.

Ezorus

Evasion has been ashit skill ever since dodge was removed

Glory

Major evasion is already EXTREMELY valuable. While I think the medium armor skills could benefit from minor buffs, the ease of which this grants major expedition is crazy.

Your examples are spot on.

master_vanargand

I agree with ZOS.
I am very excited about Elude!
It is time to take off the heavy armor in PvP.

Strider__Roshin

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

wheem_ESO

susmitds wrote: »

I see no issue with Major Expedition. Remember that medium armor's primary defense is Dodge, which is useless against AoEs.
Magicka has its snare removal tool, which gives Major Expedition on demand.
Maybe, that will finally change. Medium armor has been the weakest armor type for good amount of time.

Stamina builds now have 3 sources of Major Evasion to choose from, all of which are attached to abilities that have other useful functions (depending on final numbers, Deadly Cloak might end up actually being quite...deadly). Having that extra 25% damage reduction on top of other defenses, including blocking in certain situations, is nothing to sneeze at. It's almost like having 100% uptime on Major Protection vs AOE attacks, which some classes are essentially forced to rely on.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove the Major Expedition from this new iteration of Shuffle - medium armor builds aren't likely to be lacking mobility.

ecru

Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.

Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.

Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.

Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:

30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.

tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.

SodanTok

Agree. Minor Expedition would be enough

technohic

Daus wrote: »

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

This is my feeling on it. Really could have stuck expedition on elude and just did the cost reduction and left evasion off of FM.

Yiko

susmitds wrote: »

I see no issue with Major Expedition. Remember that medium armor's primary defense is Dodge, which is useless against AoEs.
Magicka has its snare removal tool, which gives Major Expedition on demand.
Maybe, that will finally change. Medium armor has been the weakest armor type for good amount of time.

So you're just going to ignore most of my points about the implementation being clunky, frustrating to fight against, and not in-line with the theme of the rest of the patch notes?

In a world with Lingering Health potions, Protective Jewelry, and stacking of Major/Minor Protection, Dodge rolling isn't the only option left to Medium Armor. What if I told you that Shuffle ALSO gave Major Evasion, which reduces AOE damage taken by 25%?

Why are you citing Race Against Time as being "on demand" when the proposed Shuffle isn't on demand? Are you suggesting that Shuffle could give Major Expedition on demand? I feel like ZOS already considered that and deemed it too powerful. Medium Armor has mobility passives that most Race Against Time users do not. You're trying to compare apples to oranges, which doesn't work. Currently Major Expedition is predominantly accessed by Potion, Bow dodge roll, and Quick Cloak for stam users.

The under/overperformance of an Armor type historically should not be taken into account for CURRENT balancing. By that, I mean that just because Heavy Armor has been meta since 2016, it does not follow that we spitefully trash it. Same with Medium Armor: it has been underperforming for years, but that does not mean we go crazy with buffs.

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

I think the buffs to the skill were enough and there shouldn't be any source of expedition granted at all.

Yeah, I didn't expect to see any Expedition buffs at all. If there *IS* going to be an Expedition buff, I think that Major would be far too potent for its current design.

Ezorus wrote: »

Evasion has been ashit skill ever since dodge was removed

Major Evasion from Shuffle and the snare/root immunity have kept some Stamblades and Stamplars around. Heavy Armor and its overperforming sets have taken most stam users away from Medium Armor + Shuffle.

Glory wrote: »

Major evasion is already EXTREMELY valuable. While I think the medium armor skills could benefit from minor buffs, the ease of which this grants major expedition is crazy.

Your examples are spot on.

Yeah, I feel like there was a decision in the somewhat recent past to rid Cyrodiil of the ubiquitous Major Expedition, or at least heavily cut down on it. Now ZOS is giving it away again like candy? I'm fine with on demand activation for Major Expedition, but I'm definitely not fine with this iteration of Shuffle and its brainless activation of Major Expedition.

master_vanargand wrote: »

I agree with ZOS.
I am very excited about Elude!
It is time to take off the heavy armor in PvP.

Elude with 6 pieces of Medium Armor is going to leave the Major Expedition procced passively by AoE damage taken at 8 seconds of duration. The buff itself lasts for, what, 30s next patch? And Major Expedition will be up basically the entire time, due to it being refreshed. You don't see a problem with that, given how that buff has been made more scarce in the recent past?

templesus

Medium armor is supposed to be mobile. By design. This justifies that. Without major expedition, there is absolutely no reason to run the ability over forward momentum, none at all. When you consider the addition of SEVERAL new flex abilities this patch as well as buffs to vigor(can reliably run forward), if major expedition is removed/changed to minor then the ability will likely again get de-slotted on most builds for the sake of another ability.

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way, however your proposed solutions are horrible and would just kill the ability outright. Instead, why not make the ability grant major expedition on cast for the same duration as the snare immunity? That way it’s comparable to RaT (both have a 3rd effect as well) however medium’s speed and immunity is still longer, which is logical, because by design medium is supposed to be the fastest armor spec in the game.

Rather then nerf abilities into non-use people really need to put at least some effort into conceiving ideas to keep it useful.

master_vanargand

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should adapt.

technohic

Major evasion was a good reason with Lower cost and longer duration to root snare immunity had they not thrown evasion on momentum. Ti me, shuffle is even less interesting as I will need brutality anyway

wheem_ESO

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

master_vanargand

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

adapt.

Yiko

Daus wrote: »

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that at the end of my post. Major Evasion on Momentum and morphs feels like a super weird change to me. Rally users already used Shuffle in open world for Major Evasion, and Heavy Armor users/brawlers don't need the mitigation that Major Evasion affords. The game has enough mitigation currently.

technohic wrote: »

This is my feeling on it. Really could have stuck expedition on elude and just did the cost reduction and left evasion off of FM.

I still don't fundamentally like the passive proccing of Major Expedition, but it could make sense on Elude, which does not have snare/root immunity.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina builds now have 3 sources of Major Evasion to choose from, all of which are attached to abilities that have other useful functions (depending on final numbers, Deadly Cloak might end up actually being quite...deadly). Having that extra 25% damage reduction on top of other defenses, including blocking in certain situations, is nothing to sneeze at. It's almost like having 100% uptime on Major Protection vs AOE attacks, which some classes are essentially forced to rely on.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove the Major Expedition from this new iteration of Shuffle - medium armor builds aren't likely to be lacking mobility.

It should probably be removed, but what should it be replaced with?

ecru wrote: »

Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.

Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.

Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.

Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:

30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.

tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.

My Templar example was fine. If you didn't understand it, try thinking about it again. The way you talk about Templar is not how any high level Templar would talk about the class. Yes, I do understand that the Major Expedition requires Shuffle to be cast. Then it needs AoE to apply the Major Expedition. Don't be disingenuous. Yes, other MMOs have snares and tools to counter those snares. This game also has them. Shuffle's specific morph feature was buffed by 100% this PTS cycle with its cost reduced, and it will increase the immunity time to snares/roots to 5-7 seconds. Use that, Forward Momentum, and/or your Templar Extended Ritual ability if you're feeling too snared. After that, we can talk about speeding you up.

templesus wrote: »

Medium armor is supposed to be mobile. By design. This justifies that. Without major expedition, there is absolutely no reason to run the ability over forward momentum, none at all. When you consider the addition of SEVERAL new flex abilities this patch as well as buffs to vigor(can reliably run forward), if major expedition is removed/changed to minor then the ability will likely again get de-slotted on most builds for the sake of another ability.

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way, however your proposed solutions are horrible and would just kill the ability outright. Instead, why not make the ability grant major expedition on cast for the same duration as the snare immunity? That way it’s comparable to RaT (both have a 3rd effect as well) however medium’s speed and immunity is still longer, which is logical, because by design medium is supposed to be the fastest armor spec in the game.

Rather then nerf abilities into non-use people really need to put at least some effort into conceiving ideas to keep it useful.

What about the increased sprint speed or reduced roll dodge cost? Mobility isn't tied just to having Major Expedition. Shuffle's immunity time was buffed by 100% this patch to be 5-7 seconds. That is a Medium Armor ability, no? This justifies that.
Forward Momentum is 4 seconds. Shuffle can be active more than 50% longer.
You're saying that people are going to outright drop Shuffle and Rally in Medium Armor to opt for Forward Momentum. I'm not certain that Forward Momentum is going to keep that buff, and even if it does, there will still be players that opt for Rally/Shuffle.

I don't think that my proposed change would kill the ability. Did you not see that the ability had other buffs, like 100% increase to snare/root immunity or reduced cost? Suggesting that the movement speed be dropped but increased in duration to spread out the value wouldn't kill the ability. Don't be dramatic.

I was operating under the assumption that ZOS had previously considered making Shuffle/morphs (obvious candidates) similar to Race Against Time and decided against it. They probably chose against it, because they decided that the mobility that I just previously listed along with increased stamina regen and reduced cost reduction in accompaniment with easy, on demand access to combined root/snare immunity + Major Expedition would be too potent. Medium Armor is already the fastest armor type in the game. That's just my reasoning, but thank you for your revolutionary idea.

wheem_ESO

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

adapt.

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

Yiko wrote: »

It should probably be removed, but what should it be replaced with?

I'm not sure that it needs to be replaced with anything, depending on what other changes do or don't go live as-is. 'Course, they could simply change the condition of the Major Expedition proc, making the skill more like Race Against Time, or giving the "proc" a cooldown to prevent absurdly high uptime against some builds.

templesus

Yiko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that at the end of my post. Major Evasion on Momentum and morphs feels like a super weird change to me. Rally users already used Shuffle in open world for Major Evasion, and Heavy Armor users/brawlers don't need the mitigation that Major Evasion affords. The game has enough mitigation currently.

technohic wrote: »

This is my feeling on it. Really could have stuck expedition on elude and just did the cost reduction and left evasion off of FM.

I still don't fundamentally like the passive proccing of Major Expedition, but it could make sense on Elude, which does not have snare/root immunity.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina builds now have 3 sources of Major Evasion to choose from, all of which are attached to abilities that have other useful functions (depending on final numbers, Deadly Cloak might end up actually being quite...deadly). Having that extra 25% damage reduction on top of other defenses, including blocking in certain situations, is nothing to sneeze at. It's almost like having 100% uptime on Major Protection vs AOE attacks, which some classes are essentially forced to rely on.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove the Major Expedition from this new iteration of Shuffle - medium armor builds aren't likely to be lacking mobility.

It should probably be removed, but what should it be replaced with?

ecru wrote: »

Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.

Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.

Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.

Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:

30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.

tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.

My Templar example was fine. If you didn't understand it, try thinking about it again. The way you talk about Templar is not how any high level Templar would talk about the class. Yes, I do understand that the Major Expedition requires Shuffle to be cast. Then it needs AoE to apply the Major Expedition. Don't be disingenuous. Yes, other MMOs have snares and tools to counter those snares. This game also has them. Shuffle's specific morph feature was buffed by 100% this PTS cycle with its cost reduced, and it will increase the immunity time to snares/roots to 5-7 seconds. Use that, Forward Momentum, and/or your Templar Extended Ritual ability if you're feeling too snared. After that, we can talk about speeding you up.

templesus wrote: »

Medium armor is supposed to be mobile. By design. This justifies that. Without major expedition, there is absolutely no reason to run the ability over forward momentum, none at all. When you consider the addition of SEVERAL new flex abilities this patch as well as buffs to vigor(can reliably run forward), if major expedition is removed/changed to minor then the ability will likely again get de-slotted on most builds for the sake of another ability.

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way, however your proposed solutions are horrible and would just kill the ability outright. Instead, why not make the ability grant major expedition on cast for the same duration as the snare immunity? That way it’s comparable to RaT (both have a 3rd effect as well) however medium’s speed and immunity is still longer, which is logical, because by design medium is supposed to be the fastest armor spec in the game.

Rather then nerf abilities into non-use people really need to put at least some effort into conceiving ideas to keep it useful.

What about the increased sprint speed or reduced roll dodge cost? Mobility isn't tied just to having Major Expedition. Shuffle's immunity time was buffed by 100% this patch to be 5-7 seconds. That is a Medium Armor ability, no? This justifies that.
Forward Momentum is 4 seconds. Shuffle can be active more than 50% longer.
You're saying that people are going to outright drop Shuffle and Rally in Medium Armor to opt for Forward Momentum. I'm not certain that Forward Momentum is going to keep that buff, and even if it does, there will still be players that opt for Rally/Shuffle.

I don't think that my proposed change would kill the ability. Did you not see that the ability had other buffs, like 100% increase to snare/root immunity or reduced cost? Suggesting that the movement speed be dropped but increased in duration to spread out the value wouldn't kill the ability. Don't be dramatic.

I was operating under the assumption that ZOS had previously considered making Shuffle/morphs (obvious candidates) similar to Race Against Time and decided against it. They probably chose against it, because they decided that the mobility that I just previously listed along with increased stamina regen and reduced cost reduction in accompaniment with easy, on demand access to combined root/snare immunity + Major Expedition would be too potent. Medium Armor is already the fastest armor type in the game. That's just my reasoning, but thank you for your revolutionary idea.

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work @ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

brandonv516

I don't look at it like it's too OP (coming from a player who doesn't even play Stamina).

RaT:
-Removal of snares and 2s snare immmunity
-Major expedition for 4s
-Minor force for 9s?

Shuffle:
-Removal of snares and snare immunity (3.5s-7s depending on morph and pieces worn)
-Conditional Major expedition (2s-9s depending on morph and pieces worn)
-Major evasion (not sure duration capability but based on morph and pieces worn)

My only wish is RaT provided 4s of snare immunity.

thankyourat

templesus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that at the end of my post. Major Evasion on Momentum and morphs feels like a super weird change to me. Rally users already used Shuffle in open world for Major Evasion, and Heavy Armor users/brawlers don't need the mitigation that Major Evasion affords. The game has enough mitigation currently.

technohic wrote: »

This is my feeling on it. Really could have stuck expedition on elude and just did the cost reduction and left evasion off of FM.

I still don't fundamentally like the passive proccing of Major Expedition, but it could make sense on Elude, which does not have snare/root immunity.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina builds now have 3 sources of Major Evasion to choose from, all of which are attached to abilities that have other useful functions (depending on final numbers, Deadly Cloak might end up actually being quite...deadly). Having that extra 25% damage reduction on top of other defenses, including blocking in certain situations, is nothing to sneeze at. It's almost like having 100% uptime on Major Protection vs AOE attacks, which some classes are essentially forced to rely on.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove the Major Expedition from this new iteration of Shuffle - medium armor builds aren't likely to be lacking mobility.

It should probably be removed, but what should it be replaced with?

ecru wrote: »

Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.

Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.

Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.

Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:

30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.

tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.

My Templar example was fine. If you didn't understand it, try thinking about it again. The way you talk about Templar is not how any high level Templar would talk about the class. Yes, I do understand that the Major Expedition requires Shuffle to be cast. Then it needs AoE to apply the Major Expedition. Don't be disingenuous. Yes, other MMOs have snares and tools to counter those snares. This game also has them. Shuffle's specific morph feature was buffed by 100% this PTS cycle with its cost reduced, and it will increase the immunity time to snares/roots to 5-7 seconds. Use that, Forward Momentum, and/or your Templar Extended Ritual ability if you're feeling too snared. After that, we can talk about speeding you up.

templesus wrote: »

Medium armor is supposed to be mobile. By design. This justifies that. Without major expedition, there is absolutely no reason to run the ability over forward momentum, none at all. When you consider the addition of SEVERAL new flex abilities this patch as well as buffs to vigor(can reliably run forward), if major expedition is removed/changed to minor then the ability will likely again get de-slotted on most builds for the sake of another ability.

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way, however your proposed solutions are horrible and would just kill the ability outright. Instead, why not make the ability grant major expedition on cast for the same duration as the snare immunity? That way it’s comparable to RaT (both have a 3rd effect as well) however medium’s speed and immunity is still longer, which is logical, because by design medium is supposed to be the fastest armor spec in the game.

Rather then nerf abilities into non-use people really need to put at least some effort into conceiving ideas to keep it useful.

What about the increased sprint speed or reduced roll dodge cost? Mobility isn't tied just to having Major Expedition. Shuffle's immunity time was buffed by 100% this patch to be 5-7 seconds. That is a Medium Armor ability, no? This justifies that.
Forward Momentum is 4 seconds. Shuffle can be active more than 50% longer.
You're saying that people are going to outright drop Shuffle and Rally in Medium Armor to opt for Forward Momentum. I'm not certain that Forward Momentum is going to keep that buff, and even if it does, there will still be players that opt for Rally/Shuffle.

I don't think that my proposed change would kill the ability. Did you not see that the ability had other buffs, like 100% increase to snare/root immunity or reduced cost? Suggesting that the movement speed be dropped but increased in duration to spread out the value wouldn't kill the ability. Don't be dramatic.

I was operating under the assumption that ZOS had previously considered making Shuffle/morphs (obvious candidates) similar to Race Against Time and decided against it. They probably chose against it, because they decided that the mobility that I just previously listed along with increased stamina regen and reduced cost reduction in accompaniment with easy, on demand access to combined root/snare immunity + Major Expedition would be too potent. Medium Armor is already the fastest armor type in the game. That's just my reasoning, but thank you for your revolutionary idea.

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work @ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Medium also gets a passive 15% to 21% movement speed bonus while sprinting. If the movement speed was removed from shuffle it would still be the better ability because it’s snare immunity is longer also slotting FM means you give up the burst heal from rally. I can’t see people running FM at all in medium unless you are a stamden. The major expedition does make this ability to strong, and is overall not needed. I’m glad to see shuffle was buffed but this is overdoing it.

ecru

templesus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

Daus wrote: »

It feels pretty redundant now that momentum has major evasion on it honestly.

Yeah, I wanted to touch on that at the end of my post. Major Evasion on Momentum and morphs feels like a super weird change to me. Rally users already used Shuffle in open world for Major Evasion, and Heavy Armor users/brawlers don't need the mitigation that Major Evasion affords. The game has enough mitigation currently.

technohic wrote: »

This is my feeling on it. Really could have stuck expedition on elude and just did the cost reduction and left evasion off of FM.

I still don't fundamentally like the passive proccing of Major Expedition, but it could make sense on Elude, which does not have snare/root immunity.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Stamina builds now have 3 sources of Major Evasion to choose from, all of which are attached to abilities that have other useful functions (depending on final numbers, Deadly Cloak might end up actually being quite...deadly). Having that extra 25% damage reduction on top of other defenses, including blocking in certain situations, is nothing to sneeze at. It's almost like having 100% uptime on Major Protection vs AOE attacks, which some classes are essentially forced to rely on.

I don't think it would be unreasonable to remove the Major Expedition from this new iteration of Shuffle - medium armor builds aren't likely to be lacking mobility.

It should probably be removed, but what should it be replaced with?

ecru wrote: »

Nah I like it, now it'll actually be worth slotting, and with rituals literally everywhere in BGs it'll be nice to not be permanently snared for an entire match again. Your Templar example is really not good, they get a 70% snare attached to a great spammable (which will still do more damage than wrecking blow and every other spammable in the game even when your target has major evasion up) and the largest, longest duration ground aoe snare in the game which also happens to heal people and do damage and cleanses debuffs off of yourself when you cast it and takes breath provides their teammates with basically the best synergy in the game. I mean, damn. Bar space is limited and for once I'm actually considering slotting this ability when I never considered it before.

Templar is basically melee on easy mode. With a ritual down and jabs, literally all of your targets and enemies are basically snared all the *** time. There's like zero effort to keep up with a target. Now (if someone has this one ability slotted) they may actually have to play the game like everyone else does, with targets actually being able to get away from them once in awhile. Ritual also snares above and below where it's put down which is also a very cool thing in a lot of BGs.

Also, it only works when the ability is active. It has a fairly high cost and you still have to, you know, use the ability for all of this to work. It isn't the end of the world that people actively use an ability and get a buff. You do realize that in other games, people aren't permanently snared all the time, right? Right? Anyone here ever play any other MMO? lol.

Also, quoting someone from another thread on why snares will still be good, especially for Templars, since they'll still be faster than their targets with that ritual down even when their targets have major expedition:

30% snare is actually stronger than Major Expedition, far as I know, because snares are last in the speed equation. A 30% snare is based off of your final movement speed, while a 30% speed buff is based off of your initial movement speed. A 30% snare on a character with 100% movement speed is 30%, while a 30% snare on a character with 130% movement speed is 39%.

tl;dr i'm tired of being permanently snared in BGs so no.

My Templar example was fine. If you didn't understand it, try thinking about it again. The way you talk about Templar is not how any high level Templar would talk about the class. Yes, I do understand that the Major Expedition requires Shuffle to be cast. Then it needs AoE to apply the Major Expedition. Don't be disingenuous. Yes, other MMOs have snares and tools to counter those snares. This game also has them. Shuffle's specific morph feature was buffed by 100% this PTS cycle with its cost reduced, and it will increase the immunity time to snares/roots to 5-7 seconds. Use that, Forward Momentum, and/or your Templar Extended Ritual ability if you're feeling too snared. After that, we can talk about speeding you up.

templesus wrote: »

Medium armor is supposed to be mobile. By design. This justifies that. Without major expedition, there is absolutely no reason to run the ability over forward momentum, none at all. When you consider the addition of SEVERAL new flex abilities this patch as well as buffs to vigor(can reliably run forward), if major expedition is removed/changed to minor then the ability will likely again get de-slotted on most builds for the sake of another ability.

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way, however your proposed solutions are horrible and would just kill the ability outright. Instead, why not make the ability grant major expedition on cast for the same duration as the snare immunity? That way it’s comparable to RaT (both have a 3rd effect as well) however medium’s speed and immunity is still longer, which is logical, because by design medium is supposed to be the fastest armor spec in the game.

Rather then nerf abilities into non-use people really need to put at least some effort into conceiving ideas to keep it useful.

What about the increased sprint speed or reduced roll dodge cost? Mobility isn't tied just to having Major Expedition. Shuffle's immunity time was buffed by 100% this patch to be 5-7 seconds. That is a Medium Armor ability, no? This justifies that.
Forward Momentum is 4 seconds. Shuffle can be active more than 50% longer.
You're saying that people are going to outright drop Shuffle and Rally in Medium Armor to opt for Forward Momentum. I'm not certain that Forward Momentum is going to keep that buff, and even if it does, there will still be players that opt for Rally/Shuffle.

I don't think that my proposed change would kill the ability. Did you not see that the ability had other buffs, like 100% increase to snare/root immunity or reduced cost? Suggesting that the movement speed be dropped but increased in duration to spread out the value wouldn't kill the ability. Don't be dramatic.

I was operating under the assumption that ZOS had previously considered making Shuffle/morphs (obvious candidates) similar to Race Against Time and decided against it. They probably chose against it, because they decided that the mobility that I just previously listed along with increased stamina regen and reduced cost reduction in accompaniment with easy, on demand access to combined root/snare immunity + Major Expedition would be too potent. Medium Armor is already the fastest armor type in the game. That's just my reasoning, but thank you for your revolutionary idea.

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work @ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

I don't think people realize how "not fast" medium armor is in nocp. With CP yeah you're pretty mobile because the passives work well with medium armor, but in nocp you don't have the increased regen while sprinting and reduced cost on sprint/roll dodge, so most of that mobility you have with CP doesn't really translate very well over to nocp. For this reason in BGs medium armor's "mobility" doesn't really feel like very much mobility at all.

Yiko

wheem_ESO wrote: »

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

I'm not sure that it needs to be replaced with anything, depending on what other changes do or don't go live as-is. 'Course, they could simply change the condition of the Major Expedition proc, making the skill more like Race Against Time, or giving the "proc" a cooldown to prevent absurdly high uptime against some builds.

Yeah, it's interesting to see the types of responses people have to this. I've been playing Medium Armor almost exclusively since 2015. From my perspective, I feel like I'm seeing people who are dropping their Heavy Armor/crutches in droves and grabbing hold of their new, shiny crutch as they proclaim, "ADAPT!" Like yeah, I want to go fast, too, but a conditional passive proc on AOE for a powerful mobility buff is not the way to achieve this. It's not cerebral gameplay, and it's implementation is going to be awkward. Your idea to give the proc an internal cooldown is an interesting one for sure. You could either give it a flat internal cooldown, or give it an internal cooldown for specific abilities or types of abilities. The former is more reasonable.

templesus wrote: »

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Yeah, if you wanted to be pedantic, you could totally do that. How about we talk about a Stamblade with Swift jewelry, Steed Mundus, Windrunner CP bonus, and enough other bonuses to reach the movement speed cap. Then we can drop a Shade, start Sprinting for 5s, click our Undo button, then take our Shade back. We can THEN see how it compares to a Sorc who just Streaks for 5s and then clicks Undo in our arbitrary timeframe. Maybe we can have enemies line up at max gap closer range intervals and have someone Stampede them for 5s and then Undo to see how fast he goes. Are you starting to get the point? We're not talking strictly speed. We never were. We're talking about mobility and agency, which is a culmination of things that I hope I don't have to explain. Medium Armor has the best of this already. The Major Expedition on Shuffle is over the top in that regard. If you don't agree, that's fine. I laid out why this iteration of Shuffle's implementation would be clumsy and would promote non-cerebral play. You don't seem to be able to provide a counterpoint addressing that, so I'll move on after my next point.

I can see how people would drop Shuffle and run Forward + Flex if it lost Major Expedition. Nowhere did I indicate that wasn't the case. I actually implied that Forward Momentum wouldn't keep the buff, because it seemed a bit strong and awkward. I merely indicated that there would be a sizable portion of the playerbase that would continue to opt for Rally + Shuffle, even if Shuffle lost Major Expedition (Because of Rally's burst heal and Shuffle's longer snare/root immunity).

Royalthought

This post has a lot of irony.

This Evasion change actually adds to the emphasis of active gameplay.

Its actually the AoE/Snare groups that go against it.

How "active" do you need to be when your enemy cant dodgeroll your attacks and is snared? And we wonder why tanky builds were so popular.

templesus

Yiko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

I'm not sure that it needs to be replaced with anything, depending on what other changes do or don't go live as-is. 'Course, they could simply change the condition of the Major Expedition proc, making the skill more like Race Against Time, or giving the "proc" a cooldown to prevent absurdly high uptime against some builds.

Yeah, it's interesting to see the types of responses people have to this. I've been playing Medium Armor almost exclusively since 2015. From my perspective, I feel like I'm seeing people who are dropping their Heavy Armor/crutches in droves and grabbing hold of their new, shiny crutch as they proclaim, "ADAPT!" Like yeah, I want to go fast, too, but a conditional passive proc on AOE for a powerful mobility buff is not the way to achieve this. It's not cerebral gameplay, and it's implementation is going to be awkward. Your idea to give the proc an internal cooldown is an interesting one for sure. You could either give it a flat internal cooldown, or give it an internal cooldown for specific abilities or types of abilities. The former is more reasonable.

templesus wrote: »

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Yeah, if you wanted to be pedantic, you could totally do that. How about we talk about a Stamblade with Swift jewelry, Steed Mundus, Windrunner CP bonus, and enough other bonuses to reach the movement speed cap. Then we can drop a Shade, start Sprinting for 5s, click our Undo button, then take our Shade back. We can THEN see how it compares to a Sorc who just Streaks for 5s and then clicks Undo in our arbitrary timeframe. Maybe we can have enemies line up at max gap closer range intervals and have someone Stampede them for 5s and then Undo to see how fast he goes. Are you starting to get the point? We're not talking strictly speed. We never were. We're talking about mobility and agency, which is a culmination of things that I hope I don't have to explain. Medium Armor has the best of this already. The Major Expedition on Shuffle is over the top in that regard. If you don't agree, that's fine. I laid out why this iteration of Shuffle's implementation would be clumsy and would promote non-cerebral play. You don't seem to be able to provide a counterpoint addressing that, so I'll move on after my next point.

I can see how people would drop Shuffle and run Forward + Flex if it lost Major Expedition. Nowhere did I indicate that wasn't the case. I actually implied that Forward Momentum wouldn't keep the buff, because it seemed a bit strong and awkward. I merely indicated that there would be a sizable portion of the playerbase that would continue to opt for Rally + Shuffle, even if Shuffle lost Major Expedition (Because of Rally's burst heal and Shuffle's longer snare/root immunity).

I didn’t need to counter your point about the implementation being funky, because I acknowledged it and provided another option. My point was that your specific proposals would cause the ability to no longer be slotted on a LOT of builds, not sure where you missed that. Did you even read my suggestion?

And btw your nonsense about speed makes no sense, you said medium armor has the best mobility which I countered and said is only the case when you sprint, as the spec has no other true source of mobility that is unique to it. If you have to use stamina to be mobile, then the same can be applied to classes using magicka to be mobile, in which case you can directly compare mobility of a light armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds and a medium armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds. Such a comparison would be (Magicka Costing for LA) RaT + Streak + Path + Bird of Prey + Boundless vs (Stamina costing for MA) Sprinting + Hurricane + Shuffle, all dependent on the class you’re comparing. Things like Elusive Mist, Bow dodge roll and Quick Cloak cannot apply here because they are not accessible on all builds and pigeonhole you into running a certain weapon, unlike an ability like RaT. That’s what you call a direct comparison.

When you look at objectively, without the new iteration of shuffle, magicka clearly has better mobility then medium armor. Period.

thankyourat

templesus wrote: »

Yiko wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

I'm not sure that it needs to be replaced with anything, depending on what other changes do or don't go live as-is. 'Course, they could simply change the condition of the Major Expedition proc, making the skill more like Race Against Time, or giving the "proc" a cooldown to prevent absurdly high uptime against some builds.

Yeah, it's interesting to see the types of responses people have to this. I've been playing Medium Armor almost exclusively since 2015. From my perspective, I feel like I'm seeing people who are dropping their Heavy Armor/crutches in droves and grabbing hold of their new, shiny crutch as they proclaim, "ADAPT!" Like yeah, I want to go fast, too, but a conditional passive proc on AOE for a powerful mobility buff is not the way to achieve this. It's not cerebral gameplay, and it's implementation is going to be awkward. Your idea to give the proc an internal cooldown is an interesting one for sure. You could either give it a flat internal cooldown, or give it an internal cooldown for specific abilities or types of abilities. The former is more reasonable.

templesus wrote: »

Yes Medium armor is the fastest...when spending its resources to sprint. By that logic of using resources for mobility, we can say Sorc is the fastest, or magblade is the fastest, or any build that can spam RaT really, is the fastest spec in the game. For medium to truly be considered the “fastest spec in the game” it needs passive movement speed. Period.

If you can’t see with some of the new abilities, how people will drop Shuffle if it loses major expedition and run forward + a free bar slot, all I can say is you clearly haven’t read the patch notes thoroughly, or just likely aren’t that good if you have. And I leave it at that. Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Yeah, if you wanted to be pedantic, you could totally do that. How about we talk about a Stamblade with Swift jewelry, Steed Mundus, Windrunner CP bonus, and enough other bonuses to reach the movement speed cap. Then we can drop a Shade, start Sprinting for 5s, click our Undo button, then take our Shade back. We can THEN see how it compares to a Sorc who just Streaks for 5s and then clicks Undo in our arbitrary timeframe. Maybe we can have enemies line up at max gap closer range intervals and have someone Stampede them for 5s and then Undo to see how fast he goes. Are you starting to get the point? We're not talking strictly speed. We never were. We're talking about mobility and agency, which is a culmination of things that I hope I don't have to explain. Medium Armor has the best of this already. The Major Expedition on Shuffle is over the top in that regard. If you don't agree, that's fine. I laid out why this iteration of Shuffle's implementation would be clumsy and would promote non-cerebral play. You don't seem to be able to provide a counterpoint addressing that, so I'll move on after my next point.

I can see how people would drop Shuffle and run Forward + Flex if it lost Major Expedition. Nowhere did I indicate that wasn't the case. I actually implied that Forward Momentum wouldn't keep the buff, because it seemed a bit strong and awkward. I merely indicated that there would be a sizable portion of the playerbase that would continue to opt for Rally + Shuffle, even if Shuffle lost Major Expedition (Because of Rally's burst heal and Shuffle's longer snare/root immunity).

I didn’t need to counter your point about the implementation being funky, because I acknowledged it and provided another option. My point was that your specific proposals would cause the ability to no longer be slotted on a LOT of builds, not sure where you missed that. Did you even read my suggestion?

And btw your nonsense about speed makes no sense, you said medium armor has the best mobility which I countered and said is only the case when you sprint, as the spec has no other true source of mobility that is unique to it. If you have to use stamina to be mobile, then the same can be applied to classes using magicka to be mobile, in which case you can directly compare mobility of a light armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds and a medium armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds. Such a comparison would be (Magicka Costing for LA) RaT + Streak + Path + Bird of Prey + Boundless vs (Stamina costing for MA) Sprinting + Hurricane + Shuffle, all dependent on the class you’re comparing. Things like Elusive Mist, Bow dodge roll and Quick Cloak cannot apply here because they are not accessible on all builds and pigeonhole you into running a certain weapon, unlike an ability like RaT. That’s what you call a direct comparison.

When you look at objectively, without the new iteration of shuffle, magicka clearly has better mobility then medium armor. Period.

That is 100% false even on live medium armor has better mobility than Magicka without the buffs to shuffle. Just because of sprint speed is 10% faster than major expedition plus stamina gets a extra 21% sprint speed bonus. So basically just from sprinting you move 31% faster than a Magicka build using their Magicka movement abilities. Certain Magicka specs have good mobility like magblade and magsorc but those classes are designed with mobility in mind and should be faster or more elusive than certain stamina builds. The other four Magicka builds are incredibly slow. it’s no comparison between then and there stamina counterpart and that’s before the shuffle buff.

A sprinting stamina build in medium is basically the same speed as a sprinting Magicka build while major expedition is active so if you activate major expedition on a stamina build a Magicka build simply can’t compete. Stamina builds also have more stamina which ties directly to your mobility. when comparing stamina to Magicka Mobility you should compare the mag and stam version of the same class. It doesn’t make much sense to compare the mobility of a magblade and a stamplar magblade should be more mobile because it was designed that way.

Rikumaru

I like major expedition on this skill. It fits the theme of medium armor being the most mobile while also giving players a reason to use this skill over momentum. However I do think with jabs, it should be reworked so the nearest target hit doesn't count as an AOE (ignores major evasion and also this buff). But that's an outlier case. Vs everything else imo it's fair game.

Also gives non bow back bar builds a form of major expedition. Currently all forms of major expedition for stamina sucks barring bow roll dodge.

Yiko

templesus wrote: »

I didn’t need to counter your point about the implementation being funky, because I acknowledged it and provided another option. My point was that your specific proposals would cause the ability to no longer be slotted on a LOT of builds, not sure where you missed that. Did you even read my suggestion?

And btw your nonsense about speed makes no sense, you said medium armor has the best mobility which I countered and said is only the case when you sprint, as the spec has no other true source of mobility that is unique to it. If you have to use stamina to be mobile, then the same can be applied to classes using magicka to be mobile, in which case you can directly compare mobility of a light armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds and a medium armor build using its native abilities for mobility as well as abilities accessible on all builds. Such a comparison would be (Magicka Costing for LA) RaT + Streak + Path + Bird of Prey + Boundless vs (Stamina costing for MA) Sprinting + Hurricane + Shuffle, all dependent on the class you’re comparing. Things like Elusive Mist, Bow dodge roll and Quick Cloak cannot apply here because they are not accessible on all builds and pigeonhole you into running a certain weapon, unlike an ability like RaT. That’s what you call a direct comparison.

When you look at objectively, without the new iteration of shuffle, magicka clearly has better mobility then medium armor. Period.

Oh, it's probably because this doesn't read like an acknowledgement of an issue:

templesus wrote: »

What you’re proposing is that the major expedition is too easy to proc, and that’s fine you think that way

Especially when you affirm:

templesus wrote: »

Your proposal is not good whatsoever, and I sincerely hope ZOS does not consider it and sticks with the initial design, as it was a good change that will ensure shuffle is slotted from now on. Good work ZOS_Gilliam 👍🏾

Why would you acknowledge the implementation being funky and then go on to suggest that ZOS stay with the initial design and that it was a good change? I'm curious, since it seems a bit contradictory.
Yes, I got your point about some builds not using Shuffle given Forward Momentum's changes. Basically all you can say is that a LOT of people won't use Shuffle while I and others can say a LOT of people will use Shuffle. No use arguing that point. There are merits to each build choice.

My point about the speed of builds was how ridiculous it was to frame it like that, and I was making a distinction between "fastest character" and "most mobile." How are we gauging mobility? What is the context? Determining mobility and autonomy is so much more nuanced than RaT 30% > Sprint 21%.

Medium Armor users can cast Vigor+roll dodge to dodge several attacks and take off sprinting on an Orc or Wood Elf (who have good synergy with stamina/Medium Armor). Magicka users might have to block that incoming damage and/or take a global to shield. Stamina users have more mobility options at their immediate disposal that give them greater agency/autonomy.

On top of that, how many Stamina users do you think use 2H skill line. Most, right? Now... how about Medium Armor S&B users. Would you submit that there are probably more Bow or Dual Wield users than SnB users, given that we have 2 weapon bars? I would definitely suggest that, so they likely have access to Major Expedition. Okay, so discount that, since it's not "native." Aren't speed pots better designed for stamina use than magicka ones, given the available bonuses tied with them? Okay, but discount that.

Let's just look at how you're framing it. A magicka user who has RaT racing against a Stamina user with presumably 6 Medium Armor in a straight line. The magicka user has 40% Sprint + 30% from RaT. The Stamina user has 58% from Sprint, 68% if Orc and 68% on Wood Elf if roll dodge passive is active. These races are fine to use for this, as they're the most common stamina races, yes? You're arguing about a 2%-12% difference, CONSIDERING that the Magicka user WILL be using their precious Stam pool for sprint, discounting roll dodge mobility + damage avoidance, discounting stam's larger resource pool and recovery of said pool, discounting that Shuffle's immunity currently lasts 50% longer than RaT's, and discounting how easy it is to get Major Expedition on a Stam build.

An Orc in 7 medium LITERALLY sprints faster than a sprinting magicka character with RaT active. That's all "native." Do you see why I wrote what that "nonsense" about speed earlier? It's because it was as equally ridiculous and asinine as what you were suggesting. Who cares if stam has to Sprint to access some of their mobility? Every class has to use resources to get their mobility (except after this Shuffle implementation, which you can cast after a CC break with 80% discount from the Unchained CP bonus).

Sprint is one of the factors that contributes to Stam's superior mobility/agency. Also Major Expedition is so easy to get. Grab a bow, grab vBRP DW, or grab potions. An Orc Stamplar REGAINS stamina with Restoring Focus down as he sprints faster than your mag character with RaT.

The only thing you can point to is Mag Sorc mobility, which is an outlier. You could also say that Medium Armor mobility is too tied up in sprint, which inhibits actions. That said, they can generally get from point A to point B faster and more safely while under pressure.

So now they're proposing that this already more mobile Armor type becomes SIGNIFICANTLY more passively mobile. I could get behind a lower amount of movement speed, but Major Expedition is too potent. I feel like I've been trolled, or maybe these people haven't played Medium Armor since 2016.

Abhaya

Major expedition is already easily accessable from bow and will also be available for 8 seconds at a time in combat through retreating maneuver or whatever the base skill is called.

master_vanargand

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

master_vanargand wrote: »

The purpose of the change is to create a reason to equip Medium Armor in PvP.
Minor Expedition is too weak, so Major Expedition is best.
Medium Armor doesn't have damage shields and high resistance.
So ZOS gave a speed for Medium Armor.
Speed is a new strength of Medium Armor.

Everyone should stop crying and adapt.

Light armor doesn't give high resistance either, and shields are really overrated for some builds (though obviously pretty crucial on others). Medium armor still has dodge roll, along with an improved Shuffle (even if the Major Expedition is removed), and didn't really have too many problems with mobility to begin with, especially when compared to non-Sorc Magicka builds.

I'm with the OP on this one; we don't need medium armor builds that are able to maintain virtually 100% uptime on Major Expedition - almost passively - while also being completely immune to snares and roots when up against certain opponents.

adapt.

This type of response isn't nearly as pithy as some seem to think it is. In many cases, there simply won't be any adaptation possible...your opponent is just going to have 100% uptime on Major Expedition if you fight back, and will be able to engage or disengage at will.

100% uptime? That's a cry.
You can stop using AOE.
Or you can use skill of reduce the Movement Speed.
Why do you keep crying when you can adapt?