Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W

Thannazzar · July 2019

It's not pay to win, its pay for convenience for people with more money than time.

Cathexis · July 2019

Thannazzar wrote: »

It's not pay to win, its pay for convenience for people with more money than time.

I just absolutely disagree with that, because while there may be many people that simply want convenience, there are people who view obtaining a competitive objective by paying a convenience that others view as a trophy, and there are people who view paying to obtain a trophy objective acceptable. So it goes beyond convenience because it devalues competitive objectives by allowing non-competitive players to obtain competitive objectives who's intrinsic value is for having excelled in competition.

JamilaRaj · July 2019

Thannazzar wrote: »

It's not pay to win, its pay for convenience for people with more money than time.

Time is the single most prominent factor that determines outcomes. In other words, power/objectives are function of largely time. As time can be easily converted into arbitrary advantage, whatever your objectives are, and obviously can not be obtained through in game methods, because these are all time sinks, any time-saving X is therefore inherently P2W even by the common definition that is being thrown around by people arguing that such X is not P2W on grounds that (seemingly; because they ignore time-saving component of X, which is however precisely what players pay for) equivalent X is obtainable through in game methods.

Alpharos7 · July 2019

If I had a nickel everytime someone yelled pay to win...

Buying skill lines is not 'pay to win', rather it is 'pay for convienience' as others have pointed out.

If ZOS decided to offer a crown store exclusive level 50, CP810, all skill lines maxed out character, then that would be pay 2 win....but selling skill line individually is not.

wishlist14 · July 2019

I don't think it is pay to win but i am totally against this. I posted my opinion on this and it did not go well.

Code 8

wishlist14 · July 2019

Alpharos7 wrote: »

If I had a nickel everytime someone yelled pay to win...

Buying skill lines is not 'pay to win', rather it is 'pay for convienience' as others have pointed out.

If ZOS decided to offer a crown store exclusive level 50, CP810, all skill lines maxed out character, then that would be pay 2 win....but selling skill line individually is not.

I agree that selling skill lines is not pay to win but i disagree with your other comment. If you bought a level 50 with 180cp that is still not pay to win. If the player that bought that level 50 cp 810 nly did roleplay and questing then what are they winning exactly?

I think the term pay2win is more about buying something to give you the edge and adantage over other players you are supposedly competing with. Even if an endgamer bought a level 50 character cp 810 she would still have to farm gear for that character to then be able to do vet trials and get achieves and rare skins or whatever and still it's not pay to win cause they still need to be able to do the vet content and put in the effort.

Tommy_The_Gun · July 2019

If you still dont know whatever it is P2W or not, Then anwser this:
Is byuing instant lvl 50 upgrade a P2W ?

Becouse it is almost like this. You buy something that otherwise you would have to grind. Surely it is not something that gives you DIRECT combat advantage, but it gives an advantage nonetheless.

Lets say you and your friend create a new characters. One of you is buying skill line, and has immediate acces to skills, the other one have to grind. Assuming both players are on equal skill level, whitch one of them is going to will win a duel ?

r34lian · July 2019

Would be fun to fight to eat dawnbreaker from a level 10

Sebar80 · July 2019

Two players both CP capped on alts at level 10, one paying the other one not. Going in to either duel, bg or pvp. One would be with full bis loadout and passives the other with some skills but not even close to optimal skill set up let alone passives.

The result of this kind of encounter its very easy to predict. Paying player will win.

Its impossible to replicate the same build at level 10 if you dont pay.
Granted the advantage is not pernament and will get smaller while not paying player levels up but is an advantage either way and it can only be obtained by paying.

There are mutliple thigs that you are "winning" titles, achivments, collectibles and so on. You can win these more easily by sealclubbing low levels.

Going level 15 with the bis build to under 50 campaign for emperror title will also be easier, so in fact you can pay to "win" campaign

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO · July 2019

It's a surprise mechanic not p2w. As in "Suprise I have full undaunted"

Sebar80 · July 2019

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

It's a surprise mechanic not p2w. As in "Suprise I have full undaunted"

You nailed it

Dark_Lord_Kuro · July 2019

Well its the reverse of the skyshard
You may have th skill but not the point

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

It's a surprise mechanic not p2w. As in "Suprise I have full undaunted"

Lol. People talk about Mages guild, but you can max Mages guild in a few hours. Undaunted takes a pretty long time and the passives can make a big impact.

I really don't care about this kind of P2W as it has no impact at the highest level. While I would never pay for leveling, I am happy they are making the game less grindy for people willing to spend without impacting meta builds in any way.

Will adding these shortcuts change any meta build? If not, I don't care.

As far as the P2W of locking items behind paid content goes, I don't care about that either. The reality is that you will have to periodically buy content to keep pace. Access to the game is B2P, but if you want to be competitive long term, you will have to keep buying DLC content. There is nothing wrong with that. I see no reason why the people who don't pay for some sort of access to DLC at some point shouldn't be at a disadvantage. A game like this requires continuing revenue beyond the game purchase.

maboleth · July 2019

Then all those lv 3 chars that have maxed horses are p2w (it's available in the crown store)? Because there's no way any player at lev 10 could have a maxed horse, unless it didn't play the game except fed horse every day...

I don't see it that way. It would be better if they put a lev <50 limit for buying. That would be the most fair. But even if they do not, I think it's not the end of the world or offering any serious advantage except convenience.

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

maboleth wrote: »

Then all those lv 3 chars that have maxed horses are p2w (it's available in the crown store)? Because there's no way any player at lev 10 could have a maxed horse, unless it didn't play the game except fed horse every day...

I don't see it that way. It would be better if they put a lev <50 limit for buying. That would be the most fair. But even if they do not, I think it's not the end of the world or offering any serious advantage except convenience.

I haven't leveled my Necros yet, but I've been leveling their horseriding daily. Those level 3s can be alts.

In fact, after my original 8 alts, all my other alts had max speed before I used them for any content other than writs. They were all higher than level 3 because they had all done a lot of writs during Jubilees, but leveling horseriding does not level your actual character so that is not a problem.

Unlocking skill lines though requires XP. Collecting skyshards requires going to various locations, which give you XP for being discovered. Those are impossible to complete at level 3.

I really don't care about this case though. I will admit that it undermines the idea of under-50 PvP, but that can be fixed by banning any character that uses those shortcuts from under-50 PvP.

Cathexis · July 2019

Adding more pay to win heavy elements has a fundamentally negative effect irrespective of whether or not pre-existing pay to win elements still exist.

That's like being a life guard and saying "oh you are drowning? Well let me help by spraying you in the face with a garden hose. You're probably going to drown anyway!"

volkeswagon · July 2019

I don't think buying skyshards and skill lines on other characters is pay to win because you have to work to aquire them first before you can buy them on alt toons. I don't want to have to collect all the skyshards and lorebooks again on each toon if I can bypass that because that is a pain in the but and is too time consuming. Once is enough

Hazurko_RaShan · July 2019

i think the need of a crafting bag that can only be had by paying a subscription is def p2w

Hazurko_RaShan · July 2019

volkeswagon wrote: »

I don't think buying skyshards and skill lines on other characters is pay to win because you have to work to aquire them first before you can buy them on alt toons. I don't want to have to collect all the skyshards and lorebooks again on each toon if I can bypass that because that is a pain in the but and is too time consuming. Once is enough

I agree with you.

But the craft bag is def pay 2 win as you can only get it through a paid subscription. If they offered a limited craftbag for free i might feel differently. But until i see what that looks like, it's def pay to win for the craftbag.

Marcus684 · July 2019

Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »

volkeswagon wrote: »

I don't think buying skyshards and skill lines on other characters is pay to win because you have to work to aquire them first before you can buy them on alt toons. I don't want to have to collect all the skyshards and lorebooks again on each toon if I can bypass that because that is a pain in the but and is too time consuming. Once is enough

I agree with you.

But the craft bag is def pay 2 win as you can only get it through a paid subscription. If they offered a limited craftbag for free i might feel differently. But until i see what that looks like, it's def pay to win for the craftbag.

What do you "win" by having a crafting bag? The biggest pile of stuff? Get real.

miteba · July 2019

idk wrote: »

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

Just to highlight this!
It seems people are eager to categorize this game as P2W, just because...

oxygen_thief wrote: »

you cant win without the game and you cant get it without paying. thus you pay for the game to win so its definitely p2w.

I would give you more awesomes, if i could xD
Following this theory, lets just add that almost all games are obviously buyable, so almost all are P2W, so people should focus and criticize those who arent P2W, for a change.

Palidon · July 2019

Gota laugh. There are several games that are truly P2W yet people still play them. I never really saw the big complaint on P2W anyways. Doesn't matter to me one way or another if I like the game I will play it anyways. However, to have complete skill lines available for purchase via the crown store does not seem like P2W to me. To me it's more of saving a player from repeating the same content over again on a new character. Remember you have to have a character that has already completed the skill line in order to use the feature. Same as the Sky Shards. Guess some folks will complain about anything in this game.

Arrodisia · July 2019

Marcus684 wrote: »

Lol at people here trying to redefine words. “Pay to Win” literally means use money to gain an advantage in a competition over another person that isn’t available without purchase. Buying max skill lines on alts is pay to win in lowbie pvp and that’s it. ZOS just needs to make the purchasable skill lines only active for level 50 characters, and it’s no longer pay to win. Cosmetics aren’t a competition. Furnishings aren’t a competition. The number of *** flames coming out of your mount’s ass isn’t a competition. Some people just need to get a grip.

Actually, they could also make the unlocks purchasable with in game currency(vouchers, AP, and/or gold) , if it were a concern. So they aren't crown store exclusive purchases. Same goes for the sky shards too. Players can already max out their skills before level 50 though, if they want, and without unlocking it for crowns. So, for me there is no P2W. It's just pay to reduce wasted time, and repetition imho.

Cheers

Cpt_Teemo · July 2019

P2w also refers to obtaining something faster than how the original was meant to be obtained from too I believe

Dragneel1207 · July 2019

There have been instances where achievements and skill lines were grinded by third-party for real money.
So, ZoS decided to move against them.
There is nothing more to it.

Dragneel1207 · July 2019

and they could have eliminated them by making them available with ingame gold. Instead, they are profiting from it.
Typical American company

Thavie · July 2019

False. P2W is the act of selling something in a cash shop that offers an objective statistical advantage that cannot otherwise be obtained in through in game methods.

I love how supporters of the game continue re-defining term "pay-to-win". By your definition there is no such a thing like "pay-to-win" anywhere in the world, maybe just in some pirate servers of good old lineage 2. How about this one: pay-to-win is basically selling for real money anything that makes game unbalanced. Is this the case? Yes, it is. Characters with level 10 in under 50 pvp will be fully equipped with skill lines that otherwise NOT POSSIBLE to get at this level in game. Is this unbalanced? Hell yeah, I believe it is. Will it stop at that? Well, ask yourself how often you thought about it in the past. Will they stop at selling cosmetics? Will they stop at selling bites? Will lootboxes be enough for them? Or maybe they'll stop at skyshards? Exactly. They won't stop while there is enough people to buy this sh$#%t.

method__01 · July 2019

2-3 years ago i might consider it p2w,now i really dont care,i maxed the skills by playing
now if a player want to maxed through paying its up to him
why no1 complained last year when we had Jewelry Crafting scrolls and later clothing,woodworking and blacksmithing?
the only that has left is class change token and im sure it eventually will be in CS-for a good amount of crowns

scorpius2k1 · July 2019

INB4 the Pay To ... rabbit hole spirals out of control...

Mettaricana · July 2019

I dont feel it's pay to win on skill lines. Sure it may hurt under lvl 50 bgs but thats just that your aren't meant to be level 50 forever and if thats your only reason to play is staying under 50 you may wanna look for a different game.

Also they said the skill line would be fully leveled but the skills aren't they are just as they are the moment you unlock them un tanked unmorphed. Secondly i doubt a lot of players will have the skill points to do alot with the leveled skill lines. They could buy skyshards but i don't see many players with so many crowns they can buy all skyshards skill lines etc all in one go per character on 10+ characters. So once you hit 50 your pretty much same as everyone else no op or imbalance etc.

On a positive the selling of alliance skill lines may help pvp lag as it gets rid of the pvp haters who keed vigor and caltrops who only pvp to get those skills to begin with. I know plenty who would rather eat guar sh** in real life than set foot in cyrodiil or bgs.