Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

Elric_Ashborn wrote: »

DaveMoeDee wrote: »

Skyshards and the skill line can be P2W if we are talking about under-50 PvP as it is possible that there can be builds you can get with paying that you can't just playing the game. Mostly we are talking about having the ability to have all passives beneficial to your build in combat.

But for cp160+, doesn't matter.

No, no it's not. They put the work in to find them in the first place. Also, a low level character -can-find them again.

You don't get the point. As you collect skyshards, you level. Good luck trying to get all skyshards before level 10. You will get more than those 7 levels just by discovering POIs. Add books for Mages Guild and you have even more leveling. And some skyshards require you to kill enemies--more XP.

The only characters at certain low levels that can unlock all beneficial passives at their level are the people who bought the skyshards.

Considering that there is scaling based on level, this can potentially lead to an advantage in under 50.

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

Elric_Ashborn wrote: »

...oh and just to clear things up, yes I know you agree that it's pay to win under an "acceptable" degree of tolerance. But that is a personal interpretation, and a very slippery slope. What is acceptable you you may not be others. 10 Trillion might be acceptable to some crazies.

You cannot leave this up to personal interpretation.

P2W as a label doesn't matter. What matters is games where players are frustrated because they can't compete with people spending a ton. People are getting riled up about this in principle. The principle doesn't matter. What matters is the experience of players. If no one feels they can't compete due to the need to throw money at the game, there is no problem.

Cathexis · July 2019

Elric_Ashborn wrote: »

...oh and just to clear things up, yes I know you agree that it's pay to win under an "acceptable" degree of tolerance. But that is a personal interpretation, and a very slippery slope. What is acceptable you you may not be others. 10 Trillion might be acceptable to some crazies.

You cannot leave this up to personal interpretation.

But it isn't though, its an overwhelming amount of math, with a small degree of subjective play style.

MyKillv2.0 · July 2019

Can someone tell me which streamer is behind this “everything is P2W”?

Elric_Ashborn · July 2019

Ah that's a stretch, I've been level before level 50 and had all the skills I needed to do PvP. As for your other post this may come as a shock..

It's very important you focus on the words "doesn't matter to you" as the game goes on. There is a very very large section of the entire MMO community that is against P2W. Understandably there are some that support it. As stated before we are in a transition phase (since morrowind) of an MMO that used to be hyper competitive of all incomes, to those that can but the sets, classes, ect.

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

Elric_Ashborn wrote: »

Ah that's a stretch, I've been level before level 50 and had all the skills I needed to do PvP. As for your other post this may come as a shock..

It's very important you focus on the words "doesn't matter to you" as the game goes on. There is a very very large section of the entire MMO community that is against P2W. Understandably there are some that support it. As stated before we are in a transition phase (since morrowind) of an MMO that used to be hyper competitive of all incomes, to those that can but the sets, classes, ect.

ESO is far more competitive now for all incomes than it was when the sub was mandatory and some incomes couldn't even play it. For the people who freak out about P2W, we can say the sub was P2W because you have to renew your sub to finish a 30 day campaign. The P2W term has become silly due to these abstract discussions that are completely disconnected from the actual competition level experienced in the game.

Elric_Ashborn · July 2019

Cathexis wrote: »

Elric_Ashborn wrote: »

...oh and just to clear things up, yes I know you agree that it's pay to win under an "acceptable" degree of tolerance. But that is a personal interpretation, and a very slippery slope. What is acceptable you you may not be others. 10 Trillion might be acceptable to some crazies.

You cannot leave this up to personal interpretation.

But it isn't though, its an overwhelming amount of math, with a small degree of subjective play style.

IF we want to go down this path of personal interpretation because math is hard. Then we have to be willing to face whoever making these decisions judgment... and every consequence as a result of that follows. Cutting off customers at every turn that fall into that unreasonable category.

If you do not a have pause for alarm now, you cannot say with certainty going forward.

idk · July 2019

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Vandril wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

Thorvik_Tyrson wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.

So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?

That's not the same. Your comparing Apples and Aardvarks. This whole subject is a grey line. If they put BIS gear in the crown store, that is what I would call pay to win. The rest that we seem to be discussing is what I call pay to advance faster.
Some people have more money to spend that time, and this is what the gaming companies are targeting. That convenience of pay to advance faster.

Keeping in mind that someone needs to pay for everything that keeps the company running. I want to say thanks to all of those players that have more money than time/sense that do purchase all of these things that I personally would not. There spending on these advancement items is what allows me to play the game.

Here is another theoretical case for you.
So Player "A" is a student on summer break and can grind the skills all day during the week. No one is currently complaining about that. Player "B" has to work and chooses to buy the crown store upgrade so that he can keep up with Player A that didn't have to work like he did. (Player B would have had to do this on another character in the past to be able to do this)

So in this situation, Player B is skipping the grind in trying to keep up with player "A" that did not have Real Life time commitments outside of the game. No one wants to argue about the time the some people have the luxury of spending on the game.

Thorvik

Thats not the same ? What exactly ? I am not comparing anything. It was an example i made using another person's definition of P2W.

Sure. Using your logic we can start selling emperors ( we can even have an auction ) or AP boosters. To ADVANCE FASTER , you know. Or pve-only potions of invincibility to ADVANCE FASTER in vMA and vet trials.

I mean they are busy people and do not have time to learn and practice. So they should buy it.

I understand why you're reaching to extreme examples, because this isn't typically made clear, but... The difference between what most people mean when they say "pay to advance faster" as opposed to "pay to win" is that, with the former term, paying only allows skipping content of trivial difficulty - leveling, skill grinding, etc. This is content that practically everyone can do with ease, but that takes substantial amounts of time. Being able to purchase gear sets and other rewards that come from content of non-trivial difficulty is indeed a different beast entirely. The logical distinction is there, whether or not you feel it is strong enough of one.

All i want is a CONSISTENT ARGUMENT. You cannot just skip ANY CONTENT because you want to ADVANCE faster. OR have to work. There is ( or should be ) some limitations to that.

exeeter702 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.

So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?
I mean you can get it in game. So no big deal ?

One *** thing doesnt not make it the same as all *** things. Stop with the ridiculous strawmans. Putting BIS gear would be terrible for numerous reasons, but that doesnt qualify it as P2W. This mindset is precisely why over the years, threads like this pop up in game discussions because people dont have the first clue what P2W actually means and just wants to slap P2W on anything that undermines the spirit of a game through cash shop offerings.

Strawmans ? I have made a simple EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION of P2W and asking a simple question : are you okay with it ?
You really should google definition of strawman.

And no , P2W nowadays is not a sword of a Thousand Truths in the store. Noone will buy it anymore. Now they selling inventory slots , potions for restoring job points , ingame currency , etc. They selling the same sword just indirectly.

In no way shape or form was the definition described likened to selling bis gear on the cash shop. The strawman was you using that question as a rebuttal when it was not relevant whatsoever in an attempt to form a argument out of something that was never said.

BiS gear on the crown store is absolutely a *** move but it does not qualify as P2W because said gear is not exclusive to the cash shop and is fully obtainable within game. You are conflating two different cash shop issues. They are both terrible and most developers stray from your ridiculous example for very obvious reasons but that does not make it p2w.

Dude , just read what you have wrote :
P2W is being able to buy something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game

I dont see here "No BiS gear in shop" part. So you can sell BiS gear in store if you can get it in game and it will be not P2W according to you. You also didnt say anything about TIME that you will need to get items from shop.

And then i have made my EXAMPLE using YOUR DEFINITION.

If you cannot understand this - i cant help you and will not bother with reading the rest of your post.

Sigh... im failing to understand why you are confusing what i am saying.

What i said was that p2w in its creation, was the practice of selling advantages in game that a player would otherwise not be able to aquire without spending money.

You then said, "so selling bis gear would be ok since in time you can get it in game".

Its a strawman because i am not ok with that for various reasons that undermines the integrity of mmo progression and i never suggested otherwise. That is entirely separate to p2w by the definition that was laid out for you. P2w in that case would be if said BIS gear was exclusively on the cash shop and the best you could get in game was at a power budget lower than that gear on the shop.

Your hyperbolic example would most definitely anger almost every player for good reason. But that is not P2w. That is another beast entirely.

Again , just google the definition of strawman. This is just silly.

"P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. "

Your words. Show me "i am not ok with that for various reasons " part. Oh , and in case you didnt noticed - i didnt say that you are okay with it. Thats why i asked you:

"So you will be okay with BiS gear in store if you can grind it in , lets say , 6 months ?" To to clarify your position.

And you should google the definition of hyperbole also.

Why did you feel it neccessary to ask me a question that did not pertain the the subject that i was reffering to? My position on selling bis gear in a cash shop is this : its a *** terrible practice that most modern developers have steered clear from doing for obvious reasons. That answer does not invalidate what I said regarding p2w. You asking me that question appeared to be an attempt at misdirecting the point i was making especially with the "no big deal" at the end of it.

I said - placing objectively superior gear (or any other statistical advantage) on the cash shop that cant be obtained in any other way in game is p2w.

Obviously selling BIS gear on the cash shop is a big *** deal that no one in their right mind would support.

And just to be clear, your initial question was to @idk not me. Not that it changes much since i am in agreement with his comment of

""P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game. " His words

Because i want to ask that question ? Do i need some specific reason for this ? Okay , you dont like selling bis gear in cash shop. So i have a next question for you :

Selling BiS gear in shop if you can grind it in 6 months is not P2W according to your definition ( or definition you agree with ) , right ? And now i am asking about given DEFINITION. Not about your opinion or you support.

Dont answer if you dont want. Just dont start your favorite strawman-dodging ( or should i say - misderecting the point ? )

There is no gear in this game that requires 6 months to grind. There is nothing in this game that requires 6 months to grind Even Undaunted can be maxed in a day, easily in a weekend. The argument is absurd.

Mr_Walker · July 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about.

No, we do, it's just that some people like to use their own definitions.

KalinRan · July 2019

As stated in the patch notes: "Fully completing a skill line on one character now unlocks the ability to purchase that achievement and skill line on other characters."

As per your example, no, a level 3 cannot suddenly pay to have all skills mastered, UNLESS that person already did the grind once and acquired the respective skill lines and leveled them once.

In that hypothetical duel that you're giving as an example you're commiting a logical falacy by assuming both players would be identical except 1 paid for skills and the other not, because by default the player that paid to unlock those skill lines already has:

a character that is alread maxed out
superior full purple if not full gold gear from endgame sets

Needless to say, if he is fighting a genuine level 10 beginner, he will win by sheer experience alone as he's already the better player. On top of it, if his main is over level 50, he has access to champion points on his level 10 alt too, and likely spent those granting him an incredibly unfair advantage over the other player.

In contrast if it's a battle between 2 level 10 alts, then who cares what 2 experienced players who reached endgame do with their freshly started alternate characters.

Honestly no, this is not a move in the P2W direction.

Imryll · July 2019

I'd only consider it pay to win if characters with paid skill lines are allowed to compete in the under-50 campaign.

KalinRan · July 2019

Imryll wrote: »

I'd only consider it pay to win if characters with paid skill lines are allowed to compete in the under-50 campaign.

I'm pretty sure they will be allowed to, but since they can only buy it if they have mains with the skills maxed out in the first place, they're most likely also geared up with endgame sets and gold armor at level 10 and posses the needed combat experience.

These will not be real newbies, and they would just grind out those skill lines on their own in under a week at most. If they pay to skip the grind it makes no difference, except the devs benefit.

Korah_Eaglecry · July 2019

Shortcuts are a form of P2W. They arent flat out Asian MMO P2W but within the realm of Western MMOs its definitely not something youd see in a traditional sense.

WeylandLabs · July 2019

Please let me know when you start winning real money in weird RNG pvp tournaments. Then you can all start to complain about a p2w system.

Until then this community is losing its minds. ESO is NOT an Esport, will never be an Esport so stop trying to make it such.

srfrogg23 · July 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.

It doesn't matter if you've done it before. It doesn't matter if it's convenient. Craft bag is convenient--it's NOT p2w. Skyshards is convenient--it's NOT p2w (since you can have all the skshards--your level 3 can only use a few right now, thus no strategic advantage). We need to recognize that buying a fully levelled skill line is ABSOLUTELY pay to win, even if it's not game-breaking. Have fun in those under 50 BGs, folks, if you don't think this is P2W, when your opponent has all their undaunted passives (impossible to get without paying for it), full Fighter's Guild skill lines (which you would necessarily have to level through, ya know, playing the game), etc.

FOr example, imagine 2 players on brand new toons in a duel. Both have the same cp alotted, the same gear, the same skill level. Which one has the strategic advantage? The one with fully levelled skills (BIS ultimate and great passives from FG, defense from psijic, mag recovery and total from Mage's Guild, 6% more stats from undaunted) that are impossible for a level 3 to get? Or the one who does not have these skills? Obviously, the first player has the strategic advantage. And is it possible for a level three to gain these skills WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT? WE just arrived at the definition of P2W.

Point being, P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W.

Note: This is the first time I've ever agreed that anything in this game is P2W. My forum history is usually really different on this topic, but here we're finally getting into P2W territory. I invite constructive responses to my logic, fully expecting the typical forum fare.

Sure, but a strategic advantage is only a means to an end. What are you actually winning? I can argue that MMOs are really just a neverending race around a circular track without a clearly defined endpoint or goal. People simply stop running when they are tired and are immediately replaced anyway.

Does having Meteor and a 6% stats bonus give a level 10 character an advantage over other level 10 characters? Yes.

Is that advantage large enough to really make a difference? Maybe. Maybe not.

Are the rewards really worth the real-money pricetag associated with circumventing the leveling process? Hell no.

I wouldn't call it pay to win without clearly defining what is being won. Better yet, quantify the value of what is being won.

No, these kinds of things fall into "pay to NOT play". It's only skipping the leveling aspect and shortening the progression experience. Everyone eventually has access to the same stuff. Some will just get it faster, probably along with some buyer's remorse.

WeylandLabs · July 2019

Ummm can I have 12,327 hours and 43 minutes back please, In exchange I release my account and everything in it to ZOS.

Seems I payed for time cause I didn't win a damn thing. 😂🤔🍺

Xvorg · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

So basically its

pay to win in baby pvp.

Its pretty dirty, but the people who would pay all that money to be that much stronger in baby pvp, how many of them are there?

They already grind up meteor and soul-strike and have fully golden gear for every 10 levels.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree it is going to make a large difference

I would add DBoS but it's seems clunky now. not to mention weapon skill ultimates.

To me is P2W at least for U50 activities.

disintegr8 · July 2019

Someone else buying skill lines and skyshards only matters if you PVP or duel. Does it really matter if anyone else is better than you in PVE?

Maybe they need to get rid of below level 50 PVP. Can't see how a new player in his first character at level 20 can compete with anyone on an alt at level 10 with all skill lines and skyshards unlocked and the cash to buy them. Maybe for them it is pay to win.

I have over 20 characters leveled and skilled up without buying anythng and I'm proud of that but it's not for me to force that slog on anyone. In a way it lessens what I've achieved but that just means I'm that little bit closer to finishing up with ESO.

Xvorg · July 2019

Then it arises another question, what about all that people who worked in the game, took the time to do somo great artistic work that we should appreciate by playing the game?

I mean, what's the point on having hired Michael Gambon to do a more than memorable work with Varen Aquilarios if you can just skip all the main quest and just purchase the soul magic skill line?

Any TES game has been always highly regarded because of its own mythology and the way it is told. ESO for the last 5 years has gone through that route (sometimes doing great things), then suddenly goes for the easy money way?

If ESO es in financial problems (idk if this is the case, but it seems it is) is just because they pushed their loyal fanbase aside at some point... and now they just want to push them even further by doing exactly the opposite to what have told us during the last 5 years.

Disapointing.

Kiralyn2000 · July 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

Matthew_Galvanus wrote: »

Jhalin wrote: »

If you don’t think maxed skill lines are pay to win because eventually you can get them through grinding, then you would logically have to also claim TES: Blades is also completely free of P2W

apples and oranges my man, you can't compare the two

Sure I can. You can obtain those legendary crates eventually through gameplay (1 in 256 or so last I saw), but you get them instantly just buying them. In your definition, since it can be obtained through grinding, it couldn’t possibly be P2W.

But how is that "winning"? There isn't even multiplayer in the game yet. And you can finish all the story quests long before lv50, with gear from Silver & Gold chests.

(I've opened two Legendary chests when I finally hit lv50 - one from a quest reward, one bought during a weekend sale with farmed gems. They both gave me garbage. Didn't "win" anything. But that's ok, I'd finished all the quests weeks & levels earlier. And got my town to lv10, and my crafters to lv10. Never spent a dime. Or played obsessive hours a day. Never ran into any kind of 'paywall' or difficulty spike that made me feel like I needed to pay to open chests. And I'm kind of lousy at the game, honestly - can't Crit with any regularity, and I can't go far in the Abyss. But that's a skill thing, not a 'throw money at it' thing. Slightly better gear wouldn't get me going much further.)

WeylandLabs · July 2019

I'm so confused - wth are you winning ? 😂

Chadak · July 2019

'Pay to win' is old hat, and a bullet the con artists of these modern times easily dodge by making their product really annoying to use unless you pay more for the convenience of having it function as it should've in the first place.

The selling of convenience is a powerful incentive to make things extremely tedious and inconvenient, which, while completely flying in the face of good game design, which I'll define as being 'Game design that is primarily intended to entertain the players', is a shareholder and marketing department's wet dream.

And the best part? They can smile warmly and say that they totally aren't doing any pay to win stuff at all.

Nevermind the fact that they're designing the game to deliberately drive you insane as often as possible unless you cough up a few bucks as often as possible. Isn't pay to win, and they can objectively prove it.

They've got the measurements of these goalposts metered out to the micron, and they're going to toe that line forever until you figure out how to make them stop being greedy children.

I recommend a rolled up newspaper.

Thorvarg · July 2019

It's pay to win, Zenimax's win.

Making skill lines available in the crown store is a multi million Dollar / Euro deal.

Turelus · July 2019

If you take anything which could offer an advantage over someone else and only available for money, then the game has been P2W since launch. There are a lot of items which fall under this.

If we're talking P2W on the grounds that it's based on things which offer superior numbers and are not available within the game by other means, then this is where something is traditionally P2W.

Example would be if ZOS sold a "Perfect Maelstrom Weapon" in the store which offered higher stats than the one from the game. This is would be the traditional case of P2W.

Samadhi · July 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.
...

Some examples of previous encounters with p2w games for me:
- a Ragnarok Clone that sold fashion items in cash shop that were unavailable in game and provided buffs to stats equivalent to having an extra piece of armour equiped; the items were cash-shop locked
- a Chinese import that sold lotto boxes containing clothing items that literally provided the character with a 10+ second invincibility/immune to status effects buff, as well as equippable items that significantly buffed character stats and provided skills otherwise unavailable to a build; the items were not cash-shop locked, if you farmed significant gold you could get someone to sell them to you -- you could also pay for guaranteed +1 to gear refinement in a game where you had 90% chance for your gear to break if being refined without cash shop items
- a Korean import where the company started running "events" where if you spent enough money on the cash shop in a limited amount of time you could have the GMs create you a custom piece of legendary armour with unique stat combinations

respect your position, but for me the lens of whether something is pay to win is most clearly coloured by whether the cash shop conveys an advantage that is unavailable to that player otherwise
can an experienced play create an overpowered alt to troll new players? yes, but they could already do that in terms of gear sets and strategic leveling of skill lines
in my previously mentioned titles, these were referred to as PvP "Sitters" and were pretty majority-disdained, as exp-loss-on-death mechanics allowed them to qualify for low-level battlegrounds and the like
can a new player purchase skills that make them more powerful than alts of existing players? no, the system rewards alts of existing players

what the selling of skill lines is, tho,
is incredibly predatory -- over the years the ESO community has demonstrated a lot of tendency for long-time players to create numerous alts
this sort of gameplay-convenience being provided, without doing something like instead making Alliance War Rank account-wide
is all about ZOS figuring out how to tally up recurring payments by capitalizing on demonstrated player behaviour

with the above said, do recognize there is a perfect storm scenario possible
where a Whale who has decided that lowbie PvP is the only worthwhile thing left in game
continually deletes and recreates characters to perpetually inhabit the campaign
great money maker for ZOS tho -- sell every skill line, let the player level out of the campaign, character gets deleted and created again, sell every skill line over again

ryzen_gamer_gal · July 2019

There is nothing to be won. There is no real end game. The term end game is just a construct of elitism from the players with high cp toons.

At most, the only thing to be won is the title of emperor in pvp.

get rid of pvp then there's nothing left to win.

Main story line against molag bal is easily done below level 50. Nothing to win there either.

Also nothing to win in even having this discussion because the entire topic is polarizing, baiting, and generally flaming and not constructive at all.

And as far as the person who complained about his daughter's game, this game isn't meant for anyone under 18. If you as a parent are allowing your teen children to access this game then that's on you. No one under 18 should be given access to this game and i think you are an irresponsible parent if you give your under age children access to such violent games, regardless of their gender.

Mygalomorpea · July 2019

I understand the problem. Below CP pvp is basically a place where people with incomplete builds battle each other. Having a level 10 magsorc use meteor, the improved mages guild dot and add a scattering of mages wrath... Combined with the high Stat boost you have at that level... This will be frightening.

If they can work around this with 1 additional requirement. You must have the level 50 character achievement on the toon you want to buy it with. (along with the requirement of having maxed the line on another character)

buttaface · July 2019

Thread instantly devolved into a definitional dispute over tired fanboi lingo as I knew it would. Lots of red herring is the result. "BUT THAT'S NOT TRUE P2W!!"

Fact: The term "P2W" is nebulous jargon and doesn't have any objective meaning.

Whether this or that meets the definition of whatever nebulous fanboi jargon is being employed is irrelevant.

What matters is each player's subjective estimation of how manipulated they are into spending $$ above a base game support amount on legitimate game progress. For example, though cosmetics, housing, glowy mounts, etc., would not qualify as "legitimate game progress," things like mount training for a pvp player wanting to go to Cyrodiil might. Not for a player doing only IC or BG though.

So in that respect, other than mounts in pvp, slow crafting research maybe, other hard time expenditures I may be forgetting that can be drastically shortened with $$, it would be hard to make a compelling argument based on subjective criteria that the player feels unduly manipulated into spending above and beyond to do well in ESO.

The grindiest guild skill lines are Undaunted and Alliance. All the rest can be done in a single long planned play session. Progression for Soul Magic, FG, MG, TG, DB and Psijic can be done this way, one day each per character, so it would be tough calling selling those skill lines "P2W." It's possible I guess to do Alliance (probably with a guild's help) and Undaunted (much tougher) in a single session, but would take planning and help to do it without going crazy.

IMO, nothing that could otherwise be done in a long single play session could be deemed unduly manipulative towards spending excess $$ on the game.

Vortigaunt · July 2019

Pay2win - pay to get something players that don’t pay are unable to get, and that something being super strong

Black rose restoration staff in pvp - locked behind a pay DLC. Beyond broken in pvp.

Skill lines what?

Attackfrog · July 2019

Turelus wrote: »

If you take anything which could offer an advantage over someone else and only available for money, then the game has been P2W since launch. There are a lot of items which fall under this.

If we're talking P2W on the grounds that it's based on things which offer superior numbers and are not available within the game by other means, then this is where something is traditionally P2W.

Example would be if ZOS sold a "Perfect Maelstrom Weapon" in the store which offered higher stats than the one from the game. This is would be the traditional case of P2W.

I'd buy jt.