Magicka Warden Discussion

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Magicka warden got hit harder than any other class this patch, which makes absolutely zero sense.

They already had the lowest DPS of any class:

ESO Logs: https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#dataset=95&difficulty=121&metric=dps&aggregate=amount

Liko's target dummy tests: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

What the *** are you doing ZOS?

I get it, you're nerfing across the board. But no class got hit this hard.

Wardens lost 5% of their overall DPS with the change to the Advanced Species passive, as well as took a 20% hit to WR. The only buff we got to compensate for that was a small 17% increase to Swarm (but also a cost increase).

This class already had less than 1% usage in endgame content. That number is going to get pretty damn close to 0 now.

Runefang · July 2019

I think you'll find that MagSorcs and Magplars both got hit harder than the Magden. Stop crying.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Runefang wrote: »

I think you'll find that MagSorcs and Magplars both got hit harder than the Magden. Stop crying.

No they didn't.

Warden lost 5% overall DPS (AC goes from 15% to 10% damage buff on main bar now) as well as took a 30% hit to their main AOE. Sorc and templar didn't get nerfed nearly as hard (none of their primary abilities got hit hard, and many of the changes weren't even nerfs).

And they were already parsing 5-7k higher than magden before this patch. There was zero reason to nerf the weakest class in the game this hard.

LeHarrt91 · July 2019

I dont think we were hit the hardest, i think we were just overlooked... again. and I'm not sure Winters Revenge got the 30% nerf, the base skill and its morphs got a 9% increase.

But i dont think the swarm buff is enough.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

LeHarrt91 wrote: »

I dont think we were hit the hardest, i think we were just overlooked... again. and I'm not sure Winters Revenge got the 30% nerf, the base skill and its morphs got a 9% increase.

But i dont think the swarm buff is enough.

You're right, it's a 20% nerf only ("only"), but also a 1000 magicka cost increase.

BrokenGameMechanics · July 2019

Runefang wrote: »

I think you'll find that MagSorcs and Magplars both got hit harder than the Magden. Stop crying.

That is not true, not even close. Look at the release notes again. Look at the last 4 or 5 release notes it is unbelievable how hard Warden especially Magen were hit every release.

Once you've educated yourself come back with you know an actual thought.

Kolzki · July 2019

Mag wardens would benefit from laying up more dots before swapping to their hard hitting front bar, if there were viable dots available and time in the rotation to cast them. People have long been talking about the small number of class damage skills available. Static mag warden rotations also don't fit into the wall of elements duration on live.

That 5% nerf to the damage "done stat" equates to around a 3.5% nerf to dps because of the way the calculations work when also accounting for CP, minor berserk, minor slayer etc. Yes, the ground aoe got nerfed but that's happened to all mag classes. For stamina, caltrops has basically been deleted. In exchange for the nerfs this patch gives us longer rotations with more single target dot options and longer on front bar hitting our highest damage skills.

I'll only be convinced that it's a nerf relative to other classes when I get to test it and see other people's parses. The changes this patch are too big to know for sure what the overall effect will be before the patch appears on pts.

Morgul667 · July 2019

I dont know what rant ZOS has against magicka warden

Evito · July 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

I think you'll find that MagSorcs and Magplars both got hit harder than the Magden. Stop crying.

No they didn't.

Warden lost 5% overall DPS (AC goes from 15% to 10% damage buff on main bar now) as well as took a 30% hit to their main AOE. Sorc and templar didn't get nerfed nearly as hard (none of their primary abilities got hit hard, and many of the changes weren't even nerfs).

And they were already parsing 5-7k higher than magden before this patch. There was zero reason to nerf the weakest class in the game this hard.

Uh.. You do know that Lightning Flood and the flappy bird are sorcs top 2 damage abilities after light attacks for any competent player right?

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

I think magden deserves a buff more than any other class. The nerf to their damage done passive was unnecessary and a step in the wrong direction.

That being said, they will get a few nice things this patch. Entropy and Soul Trap are looking like good ST DoTs, and Magden’s bonus to magic damage will synergize well with both of these.

FrancisCrawford · July 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Wardens lost 5% of their overall DPS with the change to the AC passive.

Overstated. But even the correct number would be too high. Zero would be too high, actually.

frostz417 · July 2019

PvP magden is now useless because they took away their only decent spammable/cc
(Shock clench) so now magdens don’t even have a reliable stun

Runefang · July 2019

Kolzki wrote: »

Mag wardens would benefit from laying up more dots before swapping to their hard hitting front bar, if there were viable dots available and time in the rotation to cast them. People have long been talking about the small number of class damage skills available. Static mag warden rotations also don't fit into the wall of elements duration on live.

That 5% nerf to the damage "done stat" equates to around a 3.5% nerf to dps because of the way the calculations work when also accounting for CP, minor berserk, minor slayer etc. Yes, the ground aoe got nerfed but that's happened to all mag classes. For stamina, caltrops has basically been deleted. In exchange for the nerfs this patch gives us longer rotations with more single target dot options and longer on front bar hitting our highest damage skills.

I'll only be convinced that it's a nerf relative to other classes when I get to test it and see other people's parses. The changes this patch are too big to know for sure what the overall effect will be before the patch appears on pts.

Pretty much, what matters is the relative balance between classes and from the patch notes it doesn't seem like Magden's got hit nearly as hard as others. In fact the reliance on shalks as a source of dps over aoe dots means they were quite protected from that unlike Magplars and Magsorcs. Combine that with a buff to non-class single target dots that Magden's can use effectively I *think* we'll see the gap narrow between mag dps classes.

Very early days at the moment though so we'll see.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

Nothing but nerfs for magden dps. Yea they were clearly overpowered in end game pve content. I mean people were running 8 magden dps raids and 3 padding rakkat. They totally had it coming.

TheYKcid · July 2019

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Vercingetorix · July 2019

According to ZoS, there's nothing to discuss. Magicka Wardens are extinct. Reroll or leave ESO.

jypcy · July 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Kolzki wrote: »

Mag wardens would benefit from laying up more dots before swapping to their hard hitting front bar, if there were viable dots available and time in the rotation to cast them. People have long been talking about the small number of class damage skills available. Static mag warden rotations also don't fit into the wall of elements duration on live.

That 5% nerf to the damage "done stat" equates to around a 3.5% nerf to dps because of the way the calculations work when also accounting for CP, minor berserk, minor slayer etc. Yes, the ground aoe got nerfed but that's happened to all mag classes. For stamina, caltrops has basically been deleted. In exchange for the nerfs this patch gives us longer rotations with more single target dot options and longer on front bar hitting our highest damage skills.

I'll only be convinced that it's a nerf relative to other classes when I get to test it and see other people's parses. The changes this patch are too big to know for sure what the overall effect will be before the patch appears on pts.

Pretty much, what matters is the relative balance between classes and from the patch notes it doesn't seem like Magden's got hit nearly as hard as others. In fact the reliance on shalks as a source of dps over aoe dots means they were quite protected from that unlike Magplars and Magsorcs. Combine that with a buff to non-class single target dots that Magden's can use effectively I *think* we'll see the gap narrow between mag dps classes.

Very early days at the moment though so we'll see.

Yep, this is what I’m expecting as well. I believe a significant factor (though certainly not the only one) in stam performing so well for the past few patches was their shared use of the same skills, typically tending slashes, poison inject, rearming trap, caltrops, and endless hail. If you give magicka competitive dps options that are available to every class, I expect classes on the lower end of the totem pole (e.g., magden) stand a good chance of being helped by this change more than others.

wheem_ESO · July 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

While I'm glad to see the, "Use a weapon obtained via non-trivial PvE farming in PvP, or be sub-par" stuff (probably) go away, the lack of decent alternative CC options definitely hurts some classes (Necromancer the most, but Warden as well). No spammable should be basically equal to the damage of other spammables, yet also have a 28m range stun attached to it...but everyone needs access to a decent CC. Arctic Blast isn't as bad as it was when first implemented as a stun, but it's still much too expensive for what it does (but hey, at least it isn't the Necromancer Totem!)

I had basically forgotten that Vampire Drain existed until @Waffennacht mentioned it in another thread, and it's now the only worthwhile CC option for Necromancers that are using lightning staves (and is far cheaper than Arctic Blast for Wardens as well). The problem with using the drain is that Vampire has some really significant drawbacks in PvP, and you'll also no longer be able to cancel Mist Form and still get the Major Expedition.

So although I think the changes to Destructive Clench/Reach are most definitely a step in the right direction overall, some other CC options need to be looked at. Reducing some of the drawbacks to Vampirism has been warranted for a while, IMO, and Arctic Blast either needs improvements to its effects, or a reduction in cost.

jaws343 · July 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Arctic Blast is actually a pretty decent CC, not sure why noone wants to use it. The growing swarm buff is pretty strong. I'll give you the spammable issues. But AOE based magdens are going to be even stronger this patch. And that doesn't even take into account the magic det changes. Watch out for Magdens running VD, proxidet and Permafrost next patch, they are going to destroy groups.

Iron_Blurr · July 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Arctic Blast is actually a pretty decent CC, not sure why noone wants to use it. The growing swarm buff is pretty strong. I'll give you the spammable issues. But AOE based magdens are going to be even stronger this patch. And that doesn't even take into account the magic det changes. Watch out for Magdens running VD, proxidet and Permafrost next patch, they are going to destroy groups.

Magden was always strong in pvp. Im pretty sure the nerfs people are talking about are relevant to pve where they are one of the worst performing dps builds.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

Iron_Blurr wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Arctic Blast is actually a pretty decent CC, not sure why noone wants to use it. The growing swarm buff is pretty strong. I'll give you the spammable issues. But AOE based magdens are going to be even stronger this patch. And that doesn't even take into account the magic det changes. Watch out for Magdens running VD, proxidet and Permafrost next patch, they are going to destroy groups.

Magden was always strong in pvp. Im pretty sure the nerfs people are talking about are relevant to pve where they are one of the worst performing dps builds.

Their usage rate in vet trials is currently less than 1%. They parse lower than any other class in DPS tests (which has been the case since the class released).

frostz417 · July 2019

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Magdens were A tier in PvP.
The change to destro staff makes magden obsolete and dead in pvp

frostz417 · July 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

TheYKcid wrote: »

While Magdens in PvP were overperforming prior to this PTS, this was mostly due to Permafrost. Instead of a solution targeted at that issue—which would also have left PvE Magden untouched—ZOS pulls this nonsense instead.

To add insult to injury, they made Master Destro staves almost obsolete via the nerfs to Destructive Touch and its morphs. PvP Magdens do not have a viable spammable nor CC, and are pretty much ****ed over by this.

Arctic Blast is actually a pretty decent CC, not sure why noone wants to use it. The growing swarm buff is pretty strong. I'll give you the spammable issues. But AOE based magdens are going to be even stronger this patch. And that doesn't even take into account the magic det changes. Watch out for Magdens running VD, proxidet and Permafrost next patch, they are going to destroy groups.

Literally no good magden runs permafrost. You lose out on A LOT of damage not running northern storm; the other morph.
AoE magdens got shafted hard, with their loss of a decent spammable they now need to use some trash like birds, which doesn’t even work. They basically lost the only good spammable.
Also arctic blast is a meme of a cc. Absurdly expesive, does no damage, and the heal is pathetic and it’s so easily telegraphed anyone with thumbs just dodges it, since it’s astronomically slow.

validifyedneb18_ESO · July 2019

I mean like... My main is a magden... a frostden to be precise...

I dont really care tbh. The food changes where significantly more of an impact to me than this.

And im still the only member of my raid who can offtank, heal and DPS all on the same build, so its whatever.

SidraWillowsky · July 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Pretty much, what matters is the relative balance between classes and from the patch notes it doesn't seem like Magden's got hit nearly as hard as others. In fact the reliance on shalks as a source of dps over aoe dots means they were quite protected from that unlike Magplars and Magsorcs. Combine that with a buff to non-class single target dots that Magden's can use effectively I *think* we'll see the gap narrow between mag dps classes.

Very early days at the moment though so we'll see.

I agree but ugh... why does it have to be "Now others suck closer to the level at which we suck!" vs "they're making the class stronger to be more competitive"?

Reminds me of one of those "dorky kid stumbles upon a genie and is granted 3 wishes" books I read growing up. The protagonist was terrible at basketball so he wished to be the best player on the team. The genie just made the rest of the team be worse players than him, so the entire team stumbled around the court playing terribly.

That's going to be us soon.

BrokenGameMechanics · July 2019

The night the notes were first posted, I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling, I'm like wow extensive changes across the board. Then I'm thinking, O-M-G, my fav Magden, if they did this many changes across the board Magden must have gottne the complete top to bottom overhaul. But I'm patient, I'm scrolling, I'm scrolling and then there it was. Nerf, nerf, nerf, modest DOT buff to one skill, nerf, ... and that's all folks.

LeHarrt91 · July 2019

I dont like that they took MagDens only reliable stun (which was a good source of damage, which we lack) without giving us something else.

Sure buff the heal of Arctic, but its still a crap skill to use. And i know the reduction of Advanced Species was due to StamDen but what did you give Magden (one of the worst dps).... a small buff (and cost increase) to a single target DoT.

MLGProPlayer · July 2019

I wonder if we'll ever get a comment from @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Would be nice, given that we do pay his salary.

LiquidPony · July 2019

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Magicka warden got hit harder than any other class this patch, which makes absolutely zero sense.

They already had the lowest DPS of any class:

ESO Logs: https://www.esologs.com/zone/statistics/12#dataset=95&difficulty=121&metric=dps&aggregate=amount

Liko's target dummy tests: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuLGCNYH1t5DyQQ5tfU4Hdw/videos

What the *** are you doing ZOS?

I get it, you're nerfing across the board. But no class got hit this hard.

Wardens lost 5% of their overall DPS with the change to the Advanced Species passive, as well as took a 20% hit to WR. The only buff we got to compensate for that was a small 17% increase to Swarm (but also a cost increase).

This class already had less than 1% usage in endgame content. That number is going to get pretty damn close to 0 now.

I think you'll actually be pleasantly surprised with the results magdens are seeing on PTS. I've seen 91k+ parses and hit a hair under 90k myself.

The downside is that the rotation is even more ridiculous than ever ... I dropped the spammable altogether and am using 7 DoTs (Unstable Wall, Scalding Rune, Degeneration, Barbed Trap, Flame Reach, Fetcher Infection, Soul Trap). Flame Reach is the pseudo-spammable there, when you run into the rare occurrence where you don't have some other skill off cooldown that needs to be re-cast.

SirMewser · July 2019

Runefang wrote: »

I think you'll find that MagSorcs and Magplars both got hit harder than the Magden. Stop crying.

I'd ask where you're from but I'm sure I can take a good guess, based on your post.

frostz417 · July 2019

Wonder if all mag is going for multiple dots on their bars for pve dps