Let's Define Pay to Win, then think about whether buying skill lines are really P2W

msalvia · July 2019

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.

It doesn't matter if you've done it before. It doesn't matter if it's convenient. Craft bag is convenient--it's NOT p2w. Skyshards is convenient--it's NOT p2w (since you can have all the skshards--your level 3 can only use a few right now, thus no strategic advantage). We need to recognize that buying a fully levelled skill line is ABSOLUTELY pay to win, even if it's not game-breaking. Have fun in those under 50 BGs, folks, if you don't think this is P2W, when your opponent has all their undaunted passives (impossible to get without paying for it), full Fighter's Guild skill lines (which you would necessarily have to level through, ya know, playing the game), etc.

FOr example, imagine 2 players on brand new toons in a duel. Both have the same cp alotted, the same gear, the same skill level. Which one has the strategic advantage? The one with fully levelled skills (BIS ultimate and great passives from FG, defense from psijic, mag recovery and total from Mage's Guild, 6% more stats from undaunted) that are impossible for a level 3 to get? Or the one who does not have these skills? Obviously, the first player has the strategic advantage. And is it possible for a level three to gain these skills WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT? WE just arrived at the definition of P2W.

Point being, P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W.

Note: This is the first time I've ever agreed that anything in this game is P2W. My forum history is usually really different on this topic, but here we're finally getting into P2W territory. I invite constructive responses to my logic, fully expecting the typical forum fare.

Morgul667 · July 2019

I think it s fine as long as it does not go further than that

Hallothiel · July 2019

You need to define what you mean by ‘winning’ in the game.

rotaugen454 · July 2019

Hallothiel wrote: »

You need to define what you mean by ‘winning’ in the game.

Having the most stylish house and outfit, duh...

Hallothiel · July 2019

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Hallothiel wrote: »

You need to define what you mean by ‘winning’ in the game.

Having the most stylish house and outfit, duh...

Excellent! I’ve obviously already won!

My houses are exquisite & my outfits divine 😘

jaws343 · July 2019

You can do all of those things on a character before level 10 anyways if you focus on them. I once leveled mages guild before level 10 so that I could have Meteor when I hit PVP.

But also, anything before CP 160 is a joke and shouldn't be used to define anything in this game.

daemonios · July 2019

Some people have pointed out the fact that if you can purchase certain skill lines while at a very low level, you can benefit from the quirks of battle leveling, which can make you more powerful at said lower levels while sporting skill lines that would make you level up if you were to level them normally. Is that P2W? I honestly don't care, I hate it either way, I despise microtransactions and I'd remove the Clown Store entirely given the chance.

yodased · July 2019

So basically its

pay to win in baby pvp.

Its pretty dirty, but the people who would pay all that money to be that much stronger in baby pvp, how many of them are there?

They already grind up meteor and soul-strike and have fully golden gear for every 10 levels.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree it is going to make a large difference

Gronk · July 2019

I nominate Yodased for class game rep!!!!!!
Who seconds me !!!

Gnozo · July 2019

By your definition the game is actually p2w tho.

Instant Research scrolls in crown Store allow you to learn every trait in one day. The non crown Store Scrolls have a cooldown.

Werewolf and Vampire Skill lines.

Juwelry crafting.

So just adding the possibility to Instant buy guild skill lines wont do much in this tbh. While i actually dont think this part is p2w.

msalvia · July 2019

Hallothiel wrote: »

You need to define what you mean by ‘winning’ in the game.

Per my example, it's who wins the duel. It's who has the strategic advantage. Plz read post before commenting.

msalvia · July 2019

You ca

jaws343 wrote: »

You can do all of those things on a character before level 10 anyways if you focus on them. I once leveled mages guild before level 10 so that I could have Meteor when I hit PVP.

But also, anything before CP 160 is a joke and shouldn't be used to define anything in this game.

You can level every guild line before level 10? I would love to see that, anyone have a link?

msalvia · July 2019

yodased wrote: »

So basically its

pay to win in baby pvp.

Its pretty dirty, but the people who would pay all that money to be that much stronger in baby pvp, how many of them are there?

They already grind up meteor and soul-strike and have fully golden gear for every 10 levels.

I understand what you are saying, but I disagree it is going to make a large difference

Totally agree. Buried in there I said I didn't find this to be game-breaking, and it really won't make much difference at all. I just see this as the only real step toward P2W (a baby step, to be sure) in this game and wanted to make a P2W post that defined its terms.

daemonios · July 2019

Gnozo wrote: »

By your definition the game is actually p2w tho.

Instant Research scrolls in crown Store allow you to learn every trait in one day. The non crown Store Scrolls have a cooldown.

Werewolf and Vampire Skill lines.

Juwelry crafting.

So just adding the possibility to Instant buy guild skill lines wont do much in this tbh. While i actually dont think this part is p2w.

You're not wrong... There is a moment where convenience blurs into p2w. As any rational company would do, ZOS is testing the waters, always pushing the boundary, slowly so you don't realise it's shifted. We as a community have failed miserably at protecting our own interests and avoiding this nickel and diming. We should have left in protest when ZOS broke its promise and brought in the Clown Store. I would have, too, if there were any better alternative. As it is, I simply don't buy Clowns and I bide my time.

khajiitNPC · July 2019

I believe someone suggested locking purchased skills until lvl 50. I can get behind that. There should still be at least a little bit of integrity in ‘baby PvP’. Especially because that’s where a lot of newbies will be. I’m aware that a lot of the skill lines can still be obtained by leveling them standard way. Which is also fine. If a player wants to level mage guild the old fashioned way and go to BG, everyone playing in it will know that they leveled it the old way. I think such a catch will contribute to healthier low level BG. Just my two cents.

CP5 · July 2019

You may level up to say, level 5, but its entierly possible to do stuff like mages guild/psijic at level 3, you can farm necromancers killing their summons for 0 exp but fighters guild rep. All this does is save time, and since you can't get into pvp until level 10 you have 7 spare levels of quest turn-ins and location discoveries if you were so bent on dominating low level pvp.

idk · July 2019

P2W was defined long ago and OP has it wrong. P2W is being able to by something with real world money that is stronger than what you can get in game.

My guess is OP has never really played a P2W game based on how wrong they are here.

wolf486 · July 2019

Over on the BDO forums, you can call things p2w, pay for convenience or a paywall, to them it's all the same and I agree. ESO has classes and a race that you can only get with real world money. DLC content often has recommended weapons at top levels. Whether the skill line is p2w, it's in the game.

oxygen_thief · July 2019

you cant win without the game and you cant get it without paying. thus you pay for the game to win so its definitely p2w.

exeeter702 · July 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.

It doesn't matter if you've done it before. It doesn't matter if it's convenient. Craft bag is convenient--it's NOT p2w. Skyshards is convenient--it's NOT p2w (since you can have all the skshards--your level 3 can only use a few right now, thus no strategic advantage). We need to recognize that buying a fully levelled skill line is ABSOLUTELY pay to win, even if it's not game-breaking. Have fun in those under 50 BGs, folks, if you don't think this is P2W, when your opponent has all their undaunted passives (impossible to get without paying for it), full Fighter's Guild skill lines (which you would necessarily have to level through, ya know, playing the game), etc.

FOr example, imagine 2 players on brand new toons in a duel. Both have the same cp alotted, the same gear, the same skill level. Which one has the strategic advantage? The one with fully levelled skills (BIS ultimate and great passives from FG, defense from psijic, mag recovery and total from Mage's Guild, 6% more stats from undaunted) that are impossible for a level 3 to get? Or the one who does not have these skills? Obviously, the first player has the strategic advantage. And is it possible for a level three to gain these skills WITHOUT PAYING FOR IT? WE just arrived at the definition of P2W.

Point being, P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. You cannot level up these skills lines on a brand new toon without paying for it. So by definition, this is P2W.

Note: This is the first time I've ever agreed that anything in this game is P2W. My forum history is usually really different on this topic, but here we're finally getting into P2W territory. I invite constructive responses to my logic, fully expecting the typical forum fare.

False. P2W is the act of selling something in a cash shop that offers an objective statistical advantage that cannot otherwise be obtained in through in game methods.

Circumventing or expediting grind times is not p2w. This isnt even a discussion. The only people who are confused by this are those thst never experienced true p2w games and have adopted some twisted definition that has been misused for enough years that a younger generation of players simply accpeted it as true.

P2W is terrible. Cash shop convenience can be terrible and can give a paying player an advantage over non payers but it is not P2W just because its a *** practice. Educate yourself on the subject.

The definition of p2w was very clear in its inception and no amount of opinion influence changes what the term has always meant regardless of how the industry as a whole has evolved over the years in how it handles in game microtransactions.

Donny_Vito · July 2019

Whatever term we the player-base choose to use is irrelevant....

It's a means for ZoS to make more money, that is all. That is winning in their eyes.

Attackfrog · July 2019

Is there a way to pay to win the forums?

essi2 · July 2019

Attackfrog wrote: »

Is there a way to pay to win the forums?

The only way to win the forums is to get banned, not sure if mods take bribes for that sort of thing.

SirAxen · July 2019

daemonios wrote: »

Some people have pointed out the fact that if you can purchase certain skill lines while at a very low level, you can benefit from the quirks of battle leveling, which can make you more powerful at said lower levels while sporting skill lines that would make you level up if you were to level them normally. Is that P2W? I honestly don't care, I hate it either way, I despise microtransactions and I'd remove the Clown Store entirely given the chance.

Ironically, there would be no game without that Crown Store.

ryzen_gamer_gal · July 2019

essi2 wrote: »

Attackfrog wrote: »

Is there a way to pay to win the forums?

The only way to win the forums is to get banned, not sure if mods take bribes for that sort of thing.

I cant even get mine deleted though i have been asking since jun 29th around 245am

Massacre_Wurm · July 2019

In every game where is possible to abuse lol lvl pvp its heavily abused. ESO is not an exception

TheShadowScout · July 2019

msalvia wrote: »

Here again we have a language problem: like so many of these posts, we don't have a clear definition of what we're talking about. P2W is about gaining strategic advantage that is not accessible without paying. Unlocking a full skill line at level 3 is NOT ACCESSIBLE WITHOUT PAYING and it absolutely does give you a strategic advantage; therefore it's Pay to win.

Eeeehhhhhhh...
Its kinda borderline, actually.
Because for it to be true PtW, the advantage has to be -permanent- like a "premium" piece of gear you cannot get through normal gameplay.
The unlocked skill line?
You -CAN- get that through normal gameplay, it just takes a tad longer then "just out of the tutorial at level 3". So its more like a shortcut, much like crown experiencer scrolls, crown riding lessons, crown skyshards, etc.
And then...
...A LOT of the people the ones who might spend crowns on this for their new alt PvPlay against will -already- have unlocked all those skill lines. And morphed&maxed them too.

Personally I don't see it as PtW, I see it as ZOS fleecing the impatient of their money... and I am okay with that.

Matthew_Galvanus · July 2019

funny how the only argument naysayers have about this is that "ItS pAy2WiN bEcAuSe PvP wIlL bE bRoKeN" like under-50 PvP has been flat out busted for ages, werewolves are basically unkillable in most scenarios, Necros who go Ravenous Goliath are pretty much immortal because no one can drop their health, and if its a tank necro? they can beat out any damage the enemy throws in their direction, thats not to say the skill lines are op, just that under-50 pvp is basically the ideal place for them

having access to Meteor, or Soul Strike isn't going to break under-50 PvP because it's Already Broken.

ryzen_gamer_gal · July 2019

this entire topic is inflamatory, baiting, polarizing, trolling and just plainly incorrect by everyone who posts an OP

exeeter702 · July 2019

@msalvia

Id also like to add few more points here in regards to actual benefits these skill lines would offer to a fresh character.

First and foremost, 7l or 7m + boosted under 50 stats by BAR outweighs undaunted + 5/1/1 in terms of low level performance.

Regarding mages and fighters guild... its necessary to ask 2 simple questions under the lense of the ACTUAL p2w definition.

1. Are the skills and ultimates available in said skill lines mathematically/objectively superior to alternative skills available to a low level character that are able to be placed on the action bar?

2. Are said skill lines obtainable ONLY through spending real money and are not otherwise obtainable within the game through gameplay methods?

The answer to both of these questions is a resounding no.

Which brings it to this point. Would a low level character naturally accrue enough tempering aloys, waxes, kutas etc to craft fully optimized leveling gear for every gear level bracket? No not normally. You see the issue here is a seasoned wealthy account with a low level alt is already coming out of the gates way stronger than fresh characters without said resources. Nothing is new here. Dawnbreaker and meteor are not going to mop the floor because they are potentially fighting amongst players that have yet to acquire any ultimate skill yet. The window people are framing there is so marginal its funny.

Sessoned accounts with resources along side incredibly alt friendly systems like BOA gear and account wide bank and craft bags have ALWAYS given such accounts/players clear objective advantages over those that dont have the same resources. Nothing has changed, except now you can waste one of your scarce early level skill points on dawnbreaker instead of uppercut, god bless.....

Jhalin · July 2019

If you don’t think maxed skill lines are pay to win because eventually you can get them through grinding, then you would logically have to also claim TES: Blades is also completely free of P2W