Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

I don't know which guilds you're in but I don't know a lot of established guilds with fixed membership fees. Maybe one or two, 2 or 3 recently already changed bcs of history issues, but besides that most run on taxes.

Does your guild run on taxes only ? You mentioned voluntary donations, then I assume you use those donations for the bids. Else I assume you'd be refusing them.
NO GUILD runs on taxes only. None. At least, not in the premium spots. They all rely on donations. But most of them (on PC/EU) prefer voluntary donations to compulsory fees - because players prefer it that way, and so do I. The donations being made on a voluntary basis does NOT mean that the guild would be self-sustainable with taxes only without them.

Kind travellers please.

This thread is in the PTS area because we want them to read and to understand our concerns.

If it ends up in a back and forth argument the thread will probably be closed and they won't read it.

So please everyone state your concerns but try a little not to get into a back and forth which may derail the purpose of the thread.

We need to be heard and we need this to be changed or possibly dropped before it goes live.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Anita are you just trolling here or did u ever in your life read trading related threads in this forum also from other platforms past 2 years. There had been a thread opened by a ghost bidder from console thanking zos for change just last week lol

It was nice talking to you but considering you start insulting me I'll talk to other people from now on, thank you.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

I don't know which guilds you're in but I don't know a lot of established guilds with fixed membership fees. Maybe one or two, 2 or 3 recently already changed bcs of history issues, but besides that most run on taxes.

Does your guild run on taxes only ? You mentioned voluntary donations, then I assume you use those donations for the bids. Else I assume you'd be refusing them.
NO GUILD runs on taxes only. None. At least, not in the premium spots. They all rely on donations. But most of them (on PC/EU) prefer voluntary donations to compulsory fees - because players prefer it that way, and so do I. The donations being made on a voluntary basis does NOT mean that the guild would be self-sustainable with taxes only without them.

My guilds sustain on taxes, yes. Trade or donate doesn't mean guilds rely on donation. Did u even make a bit of maths? What the donations are worth compared to the rest of tge income? They are nothing in a trade or donate system. Why do u even explain GMs how their guilds run and how the income balance is?

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Guilds with 1Ta here, 1 Almandine there to sell should NOT access a trader spot. They currently do more often than not, and it's an annoyance. I'm tired of visiting remote trader spots just to see their empty inventory.

Well, yes they should, that's how they expand their Trade presence and get bigger.

The remote out of the way Kiosk is not the Guild's fault, it is part of the single biggest design flaw in the Trade System. In the real world those out of the way Kiosks would never be bid on.

As a Historian it is clear to me ESO Devs have absolutely no idea how pre-industrial trade works. That is why they have positioned Kiosks in the middle of nowhere, where customer footfall is minimal, and not sufficient to make trading profitable.

Here;s a one-line basic primer on Trade in Pre-Inudstiral economies: Sell your stuff where the customer is.

There is away around this that would a) dampen down the bidding war, b) remove the need for those out of the way traders, and c) give up and coming Trade Guilds a sales outlet.

Move ALL the Kiosks to Populated Hubs, so that they become more equally valuable.
Capital cities to have 4-8 Kiosks, maybe in two reasonably central areas.
Each other "town" 2-3 Kiosks each.
Overall, aim to increase the Number of Kiosks by 10-15%

Yes, Capital Kiosks will still be more expensive, but let's be honest those out of the way, on a lonely crossroads Kiosks should never have been there in the first place.

Finally, have a "Free Trader" Kiosk:

1. Only Accounts that are not in a Trade Guild with a Kiosk can list items for sale.
2. Each Account can only list 10 Items at a Time.
3. The "Free Trader" takes a 5% Sales Tax.

This give smaller Trade Guilds that have not secured a Kiosk a chance to sell some goods, put some money away for bids next time.

However, and MOST CRUCIALLY, it allows anyone and everyone to list some items to sell. This does a few things:

1. 1) it gets more people involved and interested in Trading,
2. 2) it lowers prices for "every day commodities" so that new players can actually afford to buy things for Crafting etc.
3. 3) This leaves the big Trade Guilds free to list higher value commodities without the need to over price mundane stuff just to recoup costs.

All in all it should be a Win-Win for everyone, including the significant proportion of the Player Base that are currently, through poor design, excluded from being either Sellers or Buyers.


All The Best

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Just for starters as a big guild I will not be bidding against other big guilds because; I know most of the GMs; it is too risky to bid against other alliances and I do not want to cause disruption.

Exactly what I thought : the current system is too "established". Nearly frozen. It needs a good shake.
Maybe you, as a big guild, won't bid against other big guilds for all the reasons you stated, but upcoming guilds won't be that shy, will bid for your spot and hopefully we'll have some healthy competition again.

You show again, how clueless you are those competitors we have now all got offered fixed spots, glestablished guilds offered to back away from their spot so those attackers can have an elden root, Mournhold or vivec spot. But this one example you mentioned, and also others, refused on that, because their purpose isn't to have a good spot and a good location but to grief on specific gm. That's what you don't know. We have multiple Solist guilds atm which got their spot by shaking things up and guilds beeing offered to back away from a spot before as well already, but some just don't want to, bcs their objectives aren't trading but hatred or trolling.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Nope Ghost guilds will continue. There is no way people will give up ghost guilds. I know this for certain, 100%

Why ? For what purpose ?
Pls explain.

Because the resources are available and it is a way to maintain a backup spot.

When you run a high-end trade guild, holding the spot is an endless struggle. You have to maintain high sales and donations. Believe it or not just one week without a trader can cause serious disruption, top sellers leave and profits drop. It is also very stressful for the GM. I speak from experience and I know most of the top traders in PC EU.

Ghost spots are there as insurance. Most of the snipes come from a tiny few "anti-establishment" guilds that overbid with gold from unspecified sources. So when one of the top tier guilds fails they have a backup or share a backup with another top tier guild. These guilds have enough resources to keep this practice going. Contrary to popular belief there is not much profiteering involved in this. Now and again a snipe comes from a lesser guild who think they will make the big-time on a top spot but they soon fade away once reality sinks in.

Also there are some guilds that do profiteer from running a ghost which they sell every week. Not likely that they will stop as they make a profit.

So now with the rogue guilds having 10 spots to snipe at and more guilds having a stab at a top spot the risk of getting sniped across your alliance of top guilds goes up massively. No-one is intending to give up ghost guilds, why should they? they have the gold. There will always be someone wanting a spot and the ghost spots will always be in demand as long as someone can afford the fee.

With more guilds now likely to lose spots the profiteering ghosts will continue too.

Its not going to stop. This multi-bidding is going to cause so much chaos to what is at the present a tightly tuned engine that runs delicately on fumes. At the moment collectively we keep this engine ticking over with a few bumps now and then. Ghosts have evolved to alleviate attacks from intentional disrupters. With the added risk now of more chaos the big money is going to bed-in.

The real scramble on Sunday nights at the moment is when the GMs run madly around seeing who lost what and who too and the background infighting can be very GOT.

Its a terrible idea and there has been zero consultation and complete disregard for trade guild GMs.

Dear Zos please do not implement this!

I am a GM of a large trade guild and can predict that this will not be a change for the better.

This will be bad for larger guilds as well as not much help for medium and smaller guilds.

I cannot understand why this is being proposed without any consultation with trading guild GMs. Of all the improvements that are needed or could be implemented this feature is not helpful.

On the PC EU server the majority of trade guilds cooperate to some extent via a network of communication, alliances, friendships and rivalries. We have a discord channel for GMs and it is not just for large guilds. We have networks, we cooperate and communicate. The purpose of this is stability.

You are lobbing a chaos grenade into a system that needs less chaos, more opportunity for smaller guilds and less work for the GMs!

Most GMs, officers and members want stability for their guilds. Trade guild admins invest a huge amount of time and effort into their guilds. Both large and smaller guild gm's, officers and members also put in large amounts of their own money to boost trader bids as sales tax alone is not enough.

Most trade guilds do not want to move around, this is human nature. People like some level of predictability, cooperation and stability. Most of us don't want to bid against our neighbours.

With any economy demand will create competition. In this case demand for limited trader spots creates competition between guilds, pushing bids higher. There are more guilds than trader spots. There is inequality between the location of trader spots as some are better than others. Competition is not always good as it can manifest bad behaviour.

There is a small minority of guilds on EU that dont want stability. They move around and more than often over-bid 10 million, 15 million bids every week. Their gold sources are not primarily from sales tax. On top of gold buying, crown selling has introduced even more gold into the game. You can literally buy-to-win in trading.

People are people, so there is not always cooperation. There is also inter-faction rivalry that is often subversive and based on personality and ego. Sometimes small guilds are given money by one guild to hit a rival guild. So now a faction will be able to fund an attack on multiple guilds, causing even more disruption.

This new proposal means that me and other large guilds are going to have to constantly bid massive bids to maintain our spots. This will create a higher glass ceiling for smaller guilds. At the moment there is a chance that we can lowball now and then and will not be hit by the 2-3 rogue guilds.

This new bidding idea is chaotic: will disrupt the status quo and not for the better; will cause more stress for GMs; will not help smaller guilds and just feels like a random, poorly consulted idea with little thought about the consequences.

Can we please have:
- Communication - a dedicated name and forum thread for trading so that ideas can be proposed and thought through
- Improvements to trader locations in certain zones e.g. Riften, Hew's Bane etc.
- More trader locations in each zone, is this possible?
- Consultation on the bidding system to come up with something that is actually useful and helpful.

I am already tired of the effort, gold, diplomacy and time I have to invest into this labour of love and you are about to make it worse. With the recent fiasco with guild history I am not sure how much more I can take. This could be the last straw for a guild that has been trading since week 1.

Thanks for listening

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Did u even make a bit of maths?

10 million in taxes = 571K sales for each and every 500 members of the guild, every single week.
That's the math. And no guild has that sort of sales figures. None.

Guilds rely on backups in wary times and build up backups in calm times. That's the maths. But count 5k donation for a bad week, or 2k donation for some few members not getting the quota. Thats nothing compared to 5,6 or 8 mio in taxes. In future there only will be bad times, that's what increased fees are for then. Sry but u have zero clue about trade guild economics.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I believe the multi-bidding will introduce some level of chaos and that will be welcome (by me).

Thanks for agreeing there will be chaos. Your are promoting something that you will not have to deal with the consequences of as a GM or one of those people who do not have the luxury of being in a Craglorn guild because they are casual traders etc. Your perspective is made wthout the insight of what happens in the background, which is the purpose of this thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Such a shame that you have decided to jump on this PTS thread rather than the one that has been running for days.

It's that thread that redirected me here. Problem ? Do you want this thread to be mono-voiced against multi-bidding ?

In a nutshell, yes, your direct comments on individual posts would of been better in the other thread.

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I am currently in a Craglorn guild that requires 50K/week. Thanks to our admirable GM (and I say that without any irony), things are so stable that I end up managing my sales according to that requirement. In other words, instead of thinking "great, we got Craglorn this week, let's sell as much as I can", I just think "Don't sell too much, you need to make 50K sales next week too".
This is NOT FUN.

Next year its maybe 100k plus 10k donation.
Does this sound fun to you?

Ladida wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

I am currently in a Craglorn guild that requires 50K/week. Thanks to our admirable GM (and I say that without any irony), things are so stable that I end up managing my sales according to that requirement. In other words, instead of thinking "great, we got Craglorn this week, let's sell as much as I can", I just think "Don't sell too much, you need to make 50K sales next week too".
This is NOT FUN.

Next year its maybe 100k plus 10k donation.
Does this sound fun to you?

It's not more than what I already willingly donate, you know.

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Happens pretty much every day of the week.
For Guilds (Companies) with the money to do it, it is VERY effective.

In the real world ? Yes. But not in the specific context of ESO.

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

Your perspective is made without the insight of what happens in the background, which is the purpose of this thread.../...
In a nutshell, yes, your direct comments on individual posts would of been better in the other thread.

Oh please stop with the "insight". I know what's happening in the background. It's nothing super secret and whatnot.

This clearly shows that you do not know what goes on in the background.

Are you in one of the multiple groups of GMs and officers on bid night? Are you a decision maker in an Alliance or a trade guild? Are you on the GMS discord? Are you part of the group that is there for a ghost flip? Do you even know what the bid amounts are for guilds and involved in that bidding? Do you run the lottery for your guild and collect sales data? Do you know the ratio of sales / tax and bids? Are you in regular contact with trade guild GMs talking tactics and sharing intel? Are you placed in a rival guild as a spy collecting sales data etc?

Are you in any way involved in any of the endless stuff that goes on in the background day in and day out?

Yes.

(Now if you want this thread to not be closed or blurred you'd better stop with the personal attacks. Your inability to accept a different opinion from yours does not speak in your favour).

Meh.