Let's talk about the healing changes...

therift · July 2019

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

therift wrote: »

One orb at a time will cause a significant change in tactics. I'm going to have to slot Orb and Shards, maybe, or drop Orb, just to be sure I can get resource return to the tank. Going to have to think about this one.

What about the healers who aren't Templars?

You're going to have to aim that orb really well. Just like Templars. All healers are affected by this change.

Seraphayel · July 2019

iLLcrime wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

Except the way it'll end up working now is healers will be forced into a Worm/Hircines build to cater to the DPS like always.

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

PaigeWimberley · July 2019

Coming from someone who has 5 healers of different classes, this change is.. pardon my language... bullsh*t.

Has ZOS never PVE or...?

Most circumstances in trials involve the occasional spam of springs and orbs.

You're also stating that all 12 man content players have to sustain by themselves especially once their damage is nerfed.

You balanced out races just to nerf all classes now?
Templars are going to be the only healers now. No other class will be superior due to orb nerfs.

How did these notes even get approved?
The "leak" you guys claimed to have looks like he wasn't to far off from your actual notes.

PC Community... PLEASE squash these changes!

hasi · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

You know. You say Healers are Healers and thus should only heal. So Tanks are Tanks in your logic, that should pretty much just run around and taunt. Cause that's what Tanks are for? Screw debuffing the Boss etc. And if Dds are Dds, then they should only build in Damage and not Sustain, no?

Seraphayel · July 2019

hasi wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

You know. You say Healers are Healers and thus should only heal. So Tanks are Tanks in your logic, that should pretty much just run around and taunt. Cause that's what Tanks are for? Screw debuffing the Boss etc. And if Dds are Dds, then they should only build in Damage and not Sustain, no?

Sustain is not something exclusive to any role. Every player should manage his/her own resources. As a healer I have to build for sustain, too, who helps me with my sustain?

The part about debuffing, I agree. That’s why I said there should be one additional role of the “Supporter” who buffs allies and debuffs foes.

Heelie · July 2019

Orbs where a great spell as they offered healing while being a group utility tool. Orbs allowed the healers just getting into trials to have a very reliable support skill while maybe overhealing too much. For the top players orbs was a key tool in allowing us to use interesting builds such as PA "Powerful Assault". And other stuff. About 30% of my cast this patch are orbs on average. healing springs is usually way under 10% for a comparison. Because of just how much healing orbs does right now, I can allocate almost 50% of my cast to casting wall of elements, caltrops and other group support skills that does no healing whatsoever. Instead they help the group a ton. If the orb change goes through healers will be down to simply spamming healing spells, as they have no access to good healing over time spells that gives the breathing room to allocate global cooldowns to group utility outside of healing.

hasi · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

hasi wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

You know. You say Healers are Healers and thus should only heal. So Tanks are Tanks in your logic, that should pretty much just run around and taunt. Cause that's what Tanks are for? Screw debuffing the Boss etc. And if Dds are Dds, then they should only build in Damage and not Sustain, no?

Sustain is not something exclusive to any role. Every player should manage his/her own resources. As a healer I have to build for sustain, too, who helps me with my sustain?

The part about debuffing, I agree. That’s why I said there should be one additional role of the “Supporter” who buffs allies and debuffs foes.

Of course they should try to manage their own Ressources, but it's simply not possible to not Run out. As a Healer you can stand in the back, apply some Debuffs/Buffs if you are willing, put your Springs and HA, because you wear Aether maybe or have nothing special to do. As DD tho it's your Job to constantly deal damage, which is better if you don't have to put on Reg Enchants or HA whatsoever. Especially as some Trials/Dungeons heavily rely on a so called DPS Race.

akray21 · July 2019

Pevey wrote: »

These can’t even really be called balance changes. Across the board, both damage and sustain will be lower. Is there even any precedent for another game doing this all at once? Even the infamous Morrowind sustain nerfs just hit sustain, not base damage.

Individual dps sustain is buffed though as dps skills have received cost reduction.

akl77 · July 2019

For example, healing in vso, spring and orbs constant hot and one healer one side covers the group that dealt with the constant poison health drop on everyone, with burst heal for the overcharged person.
Now if we aim the healing spring on one spot, we have to wait 9 sec to cast another spring and if people already moved out or forward, there’s no spring covering them. One orb flowing also doesn’t provide much needed hots.
Then it comes down to warden mushrooms and combat prayer constant spam every second, which is going to used up all our resources and leaves us no seconds to cast other needed debuff and buff skills. Because a second without heal means the poison is going to kill them the next second, given the orbs and healing spring nerfs.
9 sec spring is just ridiculously long if people moved out or forward and you cannot apply another spring for the new position for 9seconds

hasi · July 2019

akl77 wrote: »

9 sec spring is just ridiculously long if people moved out or forward and you cannot apply another spring for the new position for 9seconds

I am pretty sure that Springs will now work like the Templar Ritual. It'll stay on the ground for 9secs, but its Position will be switched if you reapply it before it runs out.

Eshja · July 2019

I kinda like all the changes but it's hard to say how this all will work now.

I only don't like the orb changes because of tanks. They usually stay in places you can't really reach with one slow orb. In some formations, I need to send about 5 orbs so dps will use them and just then it will start flow to tank. I'm not seeing it possible now, sadly.

I mean it's not big of a deal for templars but I'm not playing this class and I'm not going to do that ever. I guess warden will not be nerfed to the ground, so you could still join a trial but this change will make a massive impact on every other healer.

There are still people who don't want other healers in a party but now you will have to have at least one templar in a party for shards. Again. I really hate that and I was so happy that you can go to a trial with necro+warden or sorc+warden etc and nobody was even mentioning templar. I'm sick of listening that I need to give someone shards when I'm not even a templar and it really was a case before adding warden. And I'm worried it will be happening again.
I'm so disappointed in this change.

mikemacon · July 2019

Which while overpowered is necessary sometimes for especially difficult fights in endgame PvE such as DLC dungeons and trials (vCR/vHoF anyone?).

Well, to be frank, right now you see a lot if BiS-boy meta chasers massively squishing up their healers and tanks by insisting they wear DPS sets, and squishing up their DPS by having them rely entirely on healing rather than speccing for resists and self-sustain.

Same with the over abundance of orbs floating around - not primarily for healing (which was their intended use) but for sustain. The “meta” has been pathologically terrified of heavy attacks for so long it’s now considered weird for someone to use them.

Now it looks like healers and tanks are going to have to take off those DPS sets and actually wear healer & tank stuff, and DPS are actually going to have to pay attention to things more and use the sustain source that they’re supposed to.

All in all...I’m really interested to see how this is going to play out.

Seraphayel · July 2019

Very well said @mikemacon

GreatGildersleeve · July 2019

Rustyfish101 wrote: »

I take it you don't play a healer role competitively. Over healing isn't a problem, it only seems that way because it happens through our buffs such as orbs cause DPS and Tanks need resources and combat prayer.

If you’re tanks are screaming for resources they need to learn how to tank. Any tank that relies on bubbles and shards has no idea how to manage their stuff.

pay4vue · July 2019

They aren't thinking about pve. Only pvp. If they honestly looked to see who spends the most money in the game I betcha its the pve. And we get *** upon.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · July 2019

CP5 wrote: »

I would love to see a dev run of say, vHoF hm with this change.

That assumes the Devs actually play the game at all.

Since day one I've seen next to no evidence that they do.

All The Best

code65536 · July 2019

SienneYviete wrote: »

Why would you ever advise a healer to spam springs

So why do people still slot Springs today? It's still the best, most efficient way to output a large amount of sustained healing over a long period of time. Think Assembly General execute.

Yes, orbs are better in general. But Springs is still an important part of the toolkit. And it's the heal that everyone starts out with.

Orbs requires reaching Undaunted 5. And leveling Necrotic Orb to morph, which takes a long time even on a level 50 player.

EBK · July 2019

Imagine this: you're in VAS +2, theres orbs coming in (everyone knows there can only be one active at a time), everyone sees them, they're running for it.. (it's coming in so freaking slowly), group healer is trying to reposition their one spring, and everyone scatters. 😂 it's going to be chaos lol.

majulook · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

SienneYviete wrote: »

Why would you ever advise a healer to spam springs

Yes, orbs are better in general. But Springs is still an important part of the toolkit. And it's the heal that everyone starts out with.

Orbs requires reaching Undaunted 5. And leveling Necrotic Orb to morph, which takes a long time even on a level 50 player.

For now anyway probably not so if this update goes live like it is now

hasi · July 2019

EBK wrote: »

Imagine this: you're in VAS +2, theres orbs coming in (everyone knows there can only be one active at a time), everyone sees them, they're running for it.. (it's coming in so freaking slowly), group healer is trying to reposition their one spring, and everyone scatters. 😂 it's going to be chaos lol.

Honestly, I don't even want to imagine that.😂
Just praying that the Orb Change won't make it to the Live Server.

xaraan · July 2019

Maybe the can make the orb stationary (like a larger area shard) and let it have a decent AoE HoT while offering everyone one synergy during its time up (kind of like blood funnel). That way you can still have some use out of it for resources and synergies but still keep the overhealing in check by not allowing it to be spammed like balls now. Unless the goal isn't just to cut healing, but also resource return - which I think would be pretty bad - there are already several sets in the game that make players fight for synergies on top of wanting a resource return so that would just make it much worse.

ZOS_JesC · July 2019

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MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

therift wrote: »

One orb at a time will cause a significant change in tactics. I'm going to have to slot Orb and Shards, maybe, or drop Orb, just to be sure I can get resource return to the tank. Going to have to think about this one.

wtf one orb at at time.that is ***.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

iLLcrime wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

Except the way it'll end up working now is healers will be forced into a Worm/Hircines build to cater to the DPS like always.

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

those kind of healers suck you must at the very lesat slot ele drain.

Mannix1958 · July 2019

khajiitNPC wrote: »

Doom gloom, sky is falling, yadda yadda. When the made the sustain changes in morrowind same thing. Nerfmire. Same thing. Most players are casual and aren’t going to care, another group of players will be top tier and will get through it, and the last group will cry those salty Lorkhan tears but will eventually watch a YouTube video and be happy again.

I quit for 4 months after Nerfmire . I knew I could adjust that wasn't ever the point...it was that many of the changes seemed to lack any real reason. Plus going way back to another game...NGE killed Starwars Galaxy...I was very fond of the game until that decision to overhaul it. It lost me and many others. Ignoring the reactions of the player base is a dangerous dance to tread. Having said that...this is nowhere near the level of that poor choice. There is good, bad and some really bad in the changes..but as always we will adapt....but for me...that dance step is getting tiresome and the excuse is always about balance & bettering the game. But is it really?

TheZachinator · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Please stop healing until you read some guides on what healers are supposed to do. Thank you!

LiquidPony · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

iLLcrime wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

Except the way it'll end up working now is healers will be forced into a Worm/Hircines build to cater to the DPS like always.

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Then you are a bad healer, and no one should care what you think.

Seraphayel · July 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

iLLcrime wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Edit: And the idea that DDs will have to build more for sustain may seem nice if you want THEM to rethink their build. But making them rely less on healers is like... the opposite of what we need. Why take away more utility from healers when they're already not needed for so much content? I already barely need to heal most content, now I can provide less sustain? I'm trying to play a support role here.

You see they’re trying to solve this riddle: healers are healers and not buffers or second DPS. By changing several healing abilities and the changes to resource generating skills healing will become more difficult, e.g. healers will have to do more healing. This results in DPS to self-sustain instead of rely on the healer OR there will be a completely new role of the supporting DPS / buffer / pure supporter.

Except the way it'll end up working now is healers will be forced into a Worm/Hircines build to cater to the DPS like always.

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Then you are a bad healer, and no one should care what you think.

Yes mate, if you say so. Then I am proud to be a bad healer. Nevertheless I’m the one who can adapt to the changes coming where others just complain and whine.

Seraphayel · July 2019

TheZachinator wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Please stop healing until you read some guides on what healers are supposed to do. Thank you!

No thank you, I don’t need guides or meta builds for healing.

TheZachinator · July 2019

Seraphayel wrote: »

TheZachinator wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Then simply don’t do it. I am a healer and I refuse to cater to sustain needs DPS can’t or won’t take care of themselves. I’m preventing you from death, that’s my job, not fixing your sustain problems just because you want to build for 100% damage and 0% sustain.

Please stop healing until you read some guides on what healers are supposed to do. Thank you!

No thank you, I don’t need guides or meta builds for healing.

I mean, meaning that you don’t actually know how to heal, I would beg to differ.