Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

AoEs are not niche

Magelight is not nice

Camo hunter is not niche

Curse, lightning form/hurricane, streak are not niche

Sweeps, nova, crescent sweep, ritual of retribution, solar flare, shards are not niche

Volatile armor, inhale, fiery breath are not niche

Mark target admittedly is pretty niche but still provides a great debuff vs non NBs. Sap and power drain - definitely not niche (my power drain hits almost as hard as my suprise attack now). Mass hysteria is not niche

Warden ground snare, permafrost, definitely not niche

Necro has so much aoe, multiple of which are useful against every class (Aoe based major fracture for one)

Spin2win is not niche

Quick cloak is not niche

Carve is not niche

Wall of elements is not niche

Impulse sucks but again, definitely is not at all niche.

Detect pots and flare - those are niche.

You keep saying stealth counters are niche when that is simply an objectively wrong statement.

Ive already addressed AOE’s, don’t feel like repeating myself. Read back and you will find my rebuttal to the “Use AOE’s” argument

You keep trying to boil arguments down to simple concepts like you did here with "use AoEs" and it's disingenuous. I listed abilities for every class, from both mages and fighters guild, and from both stamina and magicka weapon lines that are not simply AoEs you'd use exclusively to pull NBs out of cloak, but also have uses against every class in every fight. The point being, there is plenty of access to AoE cloak counters that are essentially part of every class' base kit that double down as also breaking cloak via the AoE mechanics. If you are willfully going to ignore every single one of them then that's on and your stubbornness and unwillingness to take advantage if staple abilities that also break cloak inheritanly by the virtue of them being AoE.

You clearly couldn’t pick up what i was dropping so ill repeat myself again.

AoE is a perfectly valid counter to mag blade. Stamblade is a different story. More often than not a samblade will clear my AoE range and avoid being caught by it. Yes Magelight and Evil hunter fit in this category too. I never stated AoE as niche, I stated AoEs as Invalid counters to stamblade.

I've picked up on what you are saying you just continually shift the goal posts each time a claim of yours is addressed.

You don't want to do anything to fight stamblades specifically, despite plenty of available non-niche abilities that are unimpeded by cloak or roll dodge and that had become quite clear. It sure would be easy if I could approach every fight against every spec/class the exact same but that just isn't the case.

susmitds wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

If you don't have a single AoE in your bar as no anti-cloak skill/pot, then why should you expect to break cloak?

If I don't have Major Defile in my build, I don't manage to finish off tanky builds as they heal right back from 10% HP. What do I do? I walk away after a few tries.

How is this any different? If you manage to stay on the cloaker and deplete their resources, they are done for. Cloakblades lack in the mitigation department as well as in the self healing department compared to other builds. What you are asking is to remove the roller-cloaker playstyle.

If I am on my mag dk I have plenty of pbaoe and they work amazingly well against a low-mid tier nightblade. I don't have problems with the nightblades who over extend and think they can use cloak as an instant i-win button.

The problem is with the nightblades who don't just sit in aoe range after they cloak and don't use use cloak to disappear when you get on them.

Those are bad nightblades. A good nightblade is going to get out of talons/deepbreath/volatile range before cloaking again. So chains, I use chains to bring them back in, but now they are cc immune and will just run out of my pbaoe range.

So use a targeted aoe you say? Sure, caltrops on a magdk or revealing flare which is garbage, or the tossable impulse or maybe just turtle up and hit magmashell so when they try to gib me I can keep constant pressure.

I'm not trying to remove roller/cloaker. Do I wish that they were not in the game? Yes and I know so many people who agree, but that isn't my call and I understand others do enjoy that playstyle.

I"m an open book about nightblades, I've never been on board with their existence in the game and feel that they shouldn't have invisibility at all., but that is not the point of the comment.

If you are nightblade and you just sit there and think you can cloak away from me you will die. If you are not braindead and you get out of range of my skills before you reset, there isn't anything I can do unless my potion is off cooldown.

The people who enjoy cloak and the people who feel cloak is over powered will literally never agree, its the most polarizing aspect of the game and has been discussed ad nauseam.

@yodased
I think if you have the expectation of having a way to counter Cloak every time you fight a NB. That's not the way it works, sometimes the counters win and sometimes Cloak wins. Why do you expect counter a class defensive skill consistently? That's the same as an "I win" button. What would be the point of Cloak if everyone had a way to shut it down whenever they wished?

Also most of the time when the NB is escaping, they are not just Cloaking away, which most people have think. They are combining Shade+Snare Removal+Cloak to escape. If a NB is investing three skills for escape and using it skillfully, then they damn well deserve to escape.

susmitds wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

If you don't have a single AoE in your bar as no anti-cloak skill/pot, then why should you expect to break cloak?

If I don't have Major Defile in my build, I don't manage to finish off tanky builds as they heal right back from 10% HP. What do I do? I walk away after a few tries.

How is this any different? If you manage to stay on the cloaker and deplete their resources, they are done for. Cloakblades lack in the mitigation department as well as in the self healing department compared to other builds. What you are asking is to remove the roller-cloaker playstyle.

If I am on my mag dk I have plenty of pbaoe and they work amazingly well against a low-mid tier nightblade. I don't have problems with the nightblades who over extend and think they can use cloak as an instant i-win button.

The problem is with the nightblades who don't just sit in aoe range after they cloak and don't use use cloak to disappear when you get on them.

Those are bad nightblades. A good nightblade is going to get out of talons/deepbreath/volatile range before cloaking again. So chains, I use chains to bring them back in, but now they are cc immune and will just run out of my pbaoe range.

So use a targeted aoe you say? Sure, caltrops on a magdk or revealing flare which is garbage, or the tossable impulse or maybe just turtle up and hit magmashell so when they try to gib me I can keep constant pressure.

I'm not trying to remove roller/cloaker. Do I wish that they were not in the game? Yes and I know so many people who agree, but that isn't my call and I understand others do enjoy that playstyle.

I"m an open book about nightblades, I've never been on board with their existence in the game and feel that they shouldn't have invisibility at all., but that is not the point of the comment.

If you are nightblade and you just sit there and think you can cloak away from me you will die. If you are not braindead and you get out of range of my skills before you reset, there isn't anything I can do unless my potion is off cooldown.

The people who enjoy cloak and the people who feel cloak is over powered will literally never agree, its the most polarizing aspect of the game and has been discussed ad nauseam.

@yodased
I think if you have the expectation of having a way to counter Cloak every time you fight a NB. That's not the way it works, sometimes the counters win and sometimes Cloak wins. Why do you expect counter a class defensive skill consistently? That's the same as an "I win" button. What would be the point of Cloak if everyone had a way to shut it down whenever they wished?

Also most of the time when the NB is escaping, they are not just Cloaking away, which most people have think. They are combining Shade+Snare Removal+Cloak to escape. If a NB is investing three skills for escape and using it skillfully, then they damn well deserve to escape.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

.OP, you should roll a stamblade and spend 2 months playing one to get a feel for it from the other side.

I wish all players did this, for every class, instead of being narrow minded class worshipping nuts.

zParallaxz wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

If you don't have a single AoE in your bar as no anti-cloak skill/pot, then why should you expect to break cloak?

If I don't have Major Defile in my build, I don't manage to finish off tanky builds as they heal right back from 10% HP. What do I do? I walk away after a few tries.

How is this any different? If you manage to stay on the cloaker and deplete their resources, they are done for. Cloakblades lack in the mitigation department as well as in the self healing department compared to other builds. What you are asking is to remove the roller-cloaker playstyle.

If I am on my mag dk I have plenty of pbaoe and they work amazingly well against a low-mid tier nightblade. I don't have problems with the nightblades who over extend and think they can use cloak as an instant i-win button.

The problem is with the nightblades who don't just sit in aoe range after they cloak and don't use use cloak to disappear when you get on them.

Those are bad nightblades. A good nightblade is going to get out of talons/deepbreath/volatile range before cloaking again. So chains, I use chains to bring them back in, but now they are cc immune and will just run out of my pbaoe range.

So use a targeted aoe you say? Sure, caltrops on a magdk or revealing flare which is garbage, or the tossable impulse or maybe just turtle up and hit magmashell so when they try to gib me I can keep constant pressure.

I'm not trying to remove roller/cloaker. Do I wish that they were not in the game? Yes and I know so many people who agree, but that isn't my call and I understand others do enjoy that playstyle.

I"m an open book about nightblades, I've never been on board with their existence in the game and feel that they shouldn't have invisibility at all., but that is not the point of the comment.

If you are nightblade and you just sit there and think you can cloak away from me you will die. If you are not braindead and you get out of range of my skills before you reset, there isn't anything I can do unless my potion is off cooldown.

The people who enjoy cloak and the people who feel cloak is over powered will literally never agree, its the most polarizing aspect of the game and has been discussed ad nauseam.

I think if you have the expectation of having a way to counter Cloak every time you fight a NB. That's not the way it works, sometimes the counters win and sometimes Cloak wins. Why do you expect counter a class defensive skill consistently? That's the same as an "I win" button. What would be the point of Cloak if everyone had a way to shut it down whenever they wished?

Also most of the time when the NB is escaping, they are not just Cloaking away, which most people have think. They are combining Shade+Snare Removal+Cloak to escape. If a NB is investing three skills for escape and using it skillfully, then they damn well deserve to escape.

I would totally agree with you, but keep in mind. This was the exact reason they nerfed wings. Wings had plenty of counter play and the biggest one was using melee. But magblades made the argument that the skill counters their entire class ( even though concealed weapon exist). Just like how their is a counter to wings, people just chose not to use them, learn about them, or slot them. The same logic is applied to cloak in terms of there is counters and people have to be willing to spec against 1 out of the 5 classes. You see how circular this argument is?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

.OP, you should roll a stamblade and spend 2 months playing one to get a feel for it from the other side.

I wish all players did this, for every class, instead of being narrow minded class worshipping nuts.

susmitds wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

If you don't have a single AoE in your bar as no anti-cloak skill/pot, then why should you expect to break cloak?

If I don't have Major Defile in my build, I don't manage to finish off tanky builds as they heal right back from 10% HP. What do I do? I walk away after a few tries.

How is this any different? If you manage to stay on the cloaker and deplete their resources, they are done for. Cloakblades lack in the mitigation department as well as in the self healing department compared to other builds. What you are asking is to remove the roller-cloaker playstyle.

If I am on my mag dk I have plenty of pbaoe and they work amazingly well against a low-mid tier nightblade. I don't have problems with the nightblades who over extend and think they can use cloak as an instant i-win button.

The problem is with the nightblades who don't just sit in aoe range after they cloak and don't use use cloak to disappear when you get on them.

Those are bad nightblades. A good nightblade is going to get out of talons/deepbreath/volatile range before cloaking again. So chains, I use chains to bring them back in, but now they are cc immune and will just run out of my pbaoe range.

So use a targeted aoe you say? Sure, caltrops on a magdk or revealing flare which is garbage, or the tossable impulse or maybe just turtle up and hit magmashell so when they try to gib me I can keep constant pressure.

I'm not trying to remove roller/cloaker. Do I wish that they were not in the game? Yes and I know so many people who agree, but that isn't my call and I understand others do enjoy that playstyle.

I"m an open book about nightblades, I've never been on board with their existence in the game and feel that they shouldn't have invisibility at all., but that is not the point of the comment.

If you are nightblade and you just sit there and think you can cloak away from me you will die. If you are not braindead and you get out of range of my skills before you reset, there isn't anything I can do unless my potion is off cooldown.

The people who enjoy cloak and the people who feel cloak is over powered will literally never agree, its the most polarizing aspect of the game and has been discussed ad nauseam.

I think if you have the expectation of having a way to counter Cloak every time you fight a NB. That's not the way it works, sometimes the counters win and sometimes Cloak wins. Why do you expect counter a class defensive skill consistently? That's the same as an "I win" button. What would be the point of Cloak if everyone had a way to shut it down whenever they wished?

Also most of the time when the NB is escaping, they are not just Cloaking away, which most people have think. They are combining Shade+Snare Removal+Cloak to escape. If a NB is investing three skills for escape and using it skillfully, then they damn well deserve to escape.

I would totally agree with you, but keep in mind. This was the exact reason they nerfed wings. Wings had plenty of counter play and the biggest one was using melee. But magblades made the argument that the skill counters their entire class ( even though concealed weapon exist). Just like how their is a counter to wings, people just chose not to use them, learn about them, or slot them. The same logic is applied to cloak in terms of there is counters and people have to be willing to spec against 1 out of the 5 classes. You see how circular this argument is?

Main difference between old Wings and Cloak is that Wing had no real counter. There are skills that go through Wings but they don't break Wings. For example, Force Pulse or Concealed Weapon could go through Wings but that did not immediately end Wings. You can not kill any DK with just Force Pulse or Concealed Weapon, especially when the later would force you to engage in melee combat in which DK overpowers NB by a large margin. Also you could effectively keep Wings 100% time of the fight

On the other hand, Cloak is effectively broken by AoE or counters. Which means, the counter removes invisibility from the Cloaker and they are open to all attacks. Sure, they can cloak again but you will get an offensive window to finish them. Also unlike old Wings, you can not be in Cloak while you are actually attacking, where as with Wings, you are could just stay in Wings and keep attacking.

susmitds wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Why do you expect to counter Cloak all the time in the first place? What would be the point of Cloak if it doesn't even work?

Your exactly right why should I expect to pull someone out of cloak every time. My answer to that is the same reason ranged users think that wings was unacceptable in terms of a skill. I’m all for rock-paper-scissors type game play but when you advocate for rock to turn to pebble don’t be made when people ask for scissors to turn to butter knife.

There is nothing Rock, Paper, Scissors here. Cloak can be broken, Wings could be "passed through" but never broken. Wings could be up while attacking unlike Cloak.

zParallaxz wrote: »

You don’t know understand what he’s saying, he acknowledges that there are skills to pull people out of cloak. The issue your missing is if that person (stamblade) has any access to movement speed or snare against its enemy, the use of cloak in conjunction with dodge roll will permit them to escape the “cloak breaking” skills. I’m guesssing you’ve never seen or encountered a situation where a dk will use volatile armor multiple times to pull a night blade out of stealth, only for the night to be either out of range of the skill or only for the night blade to go right back in stealth.

CaliMade wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

.OP, you should roll a stamblade and spend 2 months playing one to get a feel for it from the other side.

I wish all players did this, for every class, instead of being narrow minded class worshipping nuts.

NB is my most played Class, nearly 150 hrs on my nb

zParallaxz wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

AoEs are not niche

Magelight is not nice

Camo hunter is not niche

Curse, lightning form/hurricane, streak are not niche

Sweeps, nova, crescent sweep, ritual of retribution, solar flare, shards are not niche

Volatile armor, inhale, fiery breath are not niche

Mark target admittedly is pretty niche but still provides a great debuff vs non NBs. Sap and power drain - definitely not niche (my power drain hits almost as hard as my suprise attack now). Mass hysteria is not niche

Warden ground snare, permafrost, definitely not niche

Necro has so much aoe, multiple of which are useful against every class (Aoe based major fracture for one)

Spin2win is not niche

Quick cloak is not niche

Carve is not niche

Wall of elements is not niche

Impulse sucks but again, definitely is not at all niche.

Detect pots and flare - those are niche.

You keep saying stealth counters are niche when that is simply an objectively wrong statement.

Ive already addressed AOE’s, don’t feel like repeating myself. Read back and you will find my rebuttal to the “Use AOE’s” argument

You keep trying to boil arguments down to simple concepts like you did here with "use AoEs" and it's disingenuous. I listed abilities for every class, from both mages and fighters guild, and from both stamina and magicka weapon lines that are not simply AoEs you'd use exclusively to pull NBs out of cloak, but also have uses against every class in every fight. The point being, there is plenty of access to AoE cloak counters that are essentially part of every class' base kit that double down as also breaking cloak via the AoE mechanics. If you are willfully going to ignore every single one of them then that's on and your stubbornness and unwillingness to take advantage if staple abilities that also break cloak inheritanly by the virtue of them being AoE.

You clearly couldn’t pick up what i was dropping so ill repeat myself again.

AoE is a perfectly valid counter to mag blade. Stamblade is a different story. More often than not a samblade will clear my AoE range and avoid being caught by it. Yes Magelight and Evil hunter fit in this category too. I never stated AoE as niche, I stated AoEs as Invalid counters to stamblade.

I've picked up on what you are saying you just continually shift the goal posts each time a claim of yours is addressed.

You don't want to do anything to fight stamblades specifically, despite plenty of available non-niche abilities that are unimpeded by cloak or roll dodge and that had become quite clear. It sure would be easy if I could approach every fight against every spec/class the exact same but that just isn't the case.

You don’t know understand what he’s saying, he acknowledges that there are skills to pull people out of cloak. The issue your missing is if that person (stamblade) has any access to movement speed or snare against its enemy, the use of cloak in conjunction with dodge roll will permit them to escape the “cloak breaking” skills. I’m guesssing you’ve never seen or encountered a situation where a dk will use volatile armor multiple times to pull a night blade out of stealth, only for the night to be either out of range of the skill or only for the night blade to go right back in stealth.

susmitds wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

zParallaxz wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Why do you expect to counter Cloak all the time in the first place? What would be the point of Cloak if it doesn't even work?

Your exactly right why should I expect to pull someone out of cloak every time. My answer to that is the same reason ranged users think that wings was unacceptable in terms of a skill. I’m all for rock-paper-scissors type game play but when you advocate for rock to turn to pebble don’t be made when people ask for scissors to turn to butter knife.

There is nothing Rock, Paper, Scissors here. Cloak can be broken, Wings could be "passed through" but never broken. Wings could be up while attacking unlike Cloak.

Wings can’t be taken down, you are correct. It was never meant for you to keep engaging if you didn’t have the relevant skill to engage with, i.e melee ( which dks can only do since they can’t do ranged). That’s exactly Rock Paper Scissors, what your caught up on is you think YOU should be able to attack some with ranged attacks who has wings up. Do you see my point of how the logic your using ( which I agree with) applies to both concepts. Your cloak wasn’t meant for me to break yet there is counters to it if chose to spec into, on the contrary my wings wasn’t meant for range attacks to go through, if you want to damage me either come into melee range or out skill me from range and beat me. THATS TRUE BALANCE

Wings has far higher uptime compared to Cloak and comes with mobility boosts. Wings can shut entire builds unlike Cloak, which works as an escape and reset tool. If you are in the dueling scene, for the last one and half year, 90% of the winners and runner-ups have been Healing Cloak Stamblades with 100% single-target setups, where as not one cloakblade managed to win and there was only one roller-cloaker runner up out of various dueling competition(who too managed to get there by cheesing to super low sneak radius instead of spamming Cloak and wasted time till the opponent dropped his guard for the gank).

I don't really agree with what ZOS did Wings either. IMO, they should have made it so melee attacks break Wings.