My Issue with Stamblade and my opinion on how they can be adjusted.

CaliMade

The Debate about the Nb stealth tool is one the forums have been having for quite some time now. The threads usually gett derailed by that one guy/girl who wants to minimize the issue to a skill problem. Endlessly repeating this L2P vitriol.

While yes Aoe counters cloak, and yes, if you can afford to give up potions you can run detect pots and poisons. The issue here lies in the fact that your nerfing your effectiveness against 5 classes to be more effective against 1 witch isn’t a worthy trade off.

My personal Issue lies in two overly effective ways to abuse this arguably overtuned mechanic.

1. Attacks from Stealth,

This particular one is exploited by Sniping bow users most notably, they charge up a extremely hard hitting ability from the safety of being stealth and hit you with 2-3 lethal arrows before the game decides to pull them from stealth. The reasoning behind cast times i assume is because said abilities hit really hard or apply powerful buffs/debuffs/effects and for balance reasons the game gives you time to react and act accordingly. when these attacks are performed from stealth/cloak, not only are they guaranteed to critically hit, they also cannot be seen, removing the needed counterplay to balance these abilities. The simple solution would be to have cast time abilities and heavy attacks pull you from stealth instantly allowing you opponent to react to your assault if the have the ability to do so.

2. Dodge/stealth rotating

Lets go way back to when they first added dodge roll fatigue. The issue was that roll gives frames of “dodge” where you cannot be hit with single target abilities. If you used it in rapid succession you were able to go the majority of a fight essentially immune to single target abilities. ZOS’ solution to this was to add a cost increase on roll if it was used more than once in a 3 second time frame. While this was an effective nerf to most stamina specs, Nightblade was essentially unaffected. This is due to Cloak, cloak as an ability causes single target abilities to miss and last NEARLY 3 seconds. So what was created from this was a defensive weave of two abilities that cost different resources and have separate cooldowns. Nightblades Can roll then immediately cloak after and wait out your roll fatigue while lets say, charging a heavy attack, come out of cloak with said heavy attack then immediately go into another roll after your dodge fatigue has ended . Not only have you managed to be essentially immune to single target from this weave, but you also have bypassed the mechanic put in the game to specifically stop this from happening. So whats been happening is the abuse of this defensive weave from nightblades to kind of beat a system to balace stamina defense. My Solution to this problem would simply be to pause roll fatigue while stealthed, essentially forcing nightblades to be just as conservative with roll as every other stamina spec. While also keeping cloak effects strong and effective.

TLDR; Make cast time pull you from stealth and pause dodge roll fatigue in stealth.

Unfadingsilence

Man you must be getting 1vXed alot from stam NBs to have to make a post about cloak the one class skill in the game which is far broken "next to necro bash" than anything else. Honestly cloak does not work half to the time and it's the easy move to counter.... smh one day you might L2P but guess that day is not today

CaliMade

Necro bash is already getting nerfed.

The “cloak doesn’t work” trope has been proven wrong awhile ago.

This was exactly what i was talking about in the first part of my post, baseless personal attacks and no logical argument to back up your opinion.

Come with a true argument or get lost.

idk

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

CaliMade

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

Jhalin

If cloak becomes guaranteed to grant invisibility its full duration regardless of any damage, then you can start trying to nerf it. So long as it can be, and often is, completely negated by nonspecific skills and all-accessible potions, then there’s no discussion to be had.

Stamblade ganker is not even close to the most obnoxious, most powerful, or most difficult to deal with builds, which are granted to the likes of bash-necro, snarebot wardens, and walking pet armies.

CaliMade

Jhalin wrote: »

If cloak becomes guaranteed to grant invisibility its full duration regardless of any damage, then you can start trying to nerf it. So long as it can be, and often is, completely negated by nonspecific skills and all-accessible potions, then there’s no discussion to be had.

Stamblade ganker is not even close to the most obnoxious, most powerful, or most difficult to deal with builds, which are granted to the likes of bash-necro, snarebot wardens, and walking pet armies.

I sorta agree with you, in terms of detect potions and poisons I think they should be removed and revealing flare too. AOE’s and things like Curse and PotL should still pull you out of cloak though.

Also just because it isn’t as blatantly over performing as Bash builds(witch are being nerfed) and pet sorc doesn’t mean an adjustment isn’t needed.

Unfadingsilence

CaliMade wrote: »

Necro bash is already getting nerfed.

The “cloak doesn’t work” trope has been proven wrong awhile ago.

This was exactly what i was talking about in the first part of my post, baseless personal attacks and no logical argument to back up your opinion.

Come with a true argument or get lost.

I'm gonna steal someones post cuz I'm definitely not type all this out especially since I'm playing ESO atm "waiting to bomb DC at arrius"

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

How about you play a NB and use cloak and lets see how often cloak is reliable for you.

Or you can use the following:

Dragon Knight:

• Fiery breath and it's morphs
• Dark Talons and its morphs (doesn't pull them from stealth but you can hold them in place while they are in cloak and use the other moves)
• Voltile Armor
• Inhale and it's morphs
• Eruption

Sorcerer:

• Daedric curse and morphs
• Defensive rune (for the gankers in cloak)
• Daedric mines (if you place it right)
• Lightning form and its morphs
• Bolt Escape and its morphs

Templar:

• Puncturing Swipes and its morphs
• Spear Shards
• Sun Fire (great for speed reduction)
• Ritual of Retribution (when a NB stands in it, it pulls them out of cloak)

Nightblade

• Mark Target and its morphs
• Path of darkness (and morph that deals damage)
• Aspect of terror
• Drain power and its morphs

Misc:

• Caltrops
• That spin to win move in duel wield
• Magelight
• Magic Detonation (that stays on the NB player)
• Revealing Flare
• Detection pots
• If you really want.....Wall of elements

TBH, I am not too familiar with the Warden and Necro to tell you what they use to pull NB out of cloak except the beetle move from Warden. I am also all magic builds expect my StamSorc so I probably missed some stam counters. Anyone can add or correct anything I listed but I listed all the things that I have used to pull NBs out of cloak and also what has pulled me out of cloak.

If you don't set yourself up for fighting back cloakers...then that is on you. Everyone has a certain amount of skills they can place on their bar and you can't counter EVERYTHING with ease. It takes experience and knowledge of other classes and builds to know what you can use to work on pressure points on the build. Even simply running your enemy out of resources is a counter (example: A Stambalde can only cloak so many times. Keep pulling them out and they will run out of Magicka to use on Cloak. If you face a Mageblade, they are a lot slower than Stamblades, especially since they got rid of the movement speed from some NB skills. Plus Mageblades don't have a lot of stamina so keep CC on them and you got em! So Stamblade -> Run their Magic out. Mageblades -> Run their Stamina out).

EDIT: I think that howl from the Werewolf can fear NB out of cloak. Someone correct me.

Nyladreas

Just knock it off already lol. NB cloak is the last thing anyone should be worried about now.

Seriously learn to play.

CaliMade

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

Necro bash is already getting nerfed.

The “cloak doesn’t work” trope has been proven wrong awhile ago.

This was exactly what i was talking about in the first part of my post, baseless personal attacks and no logical argument to back up your opinion.

Come with a true argument or get lost.

I'm gonna steal someones post cuz I'm definitely not type all this out especially since I'm playing ESO atm "waiting to bomb DC at arrius"

Kuramas9tails wrote: »

How about you play a NB and use cloak and lets see how often cloak is reliable for you.

Or you can use the following:

Dragon Knight:

• Fiery breath and it's morphs
• Dark Talons and its morphs (doesn't pull them from stealth but you can hold them in place while they are in cloak and use the other moves)
• Voltile Armor
• Inhale and it's morphs
• Eruption

Sorcerer:

• Daedric curse and morphs
• Defensive rune (for the gankers in cloak)
• Daedric mines (if you place it right)
• Lightning form and its morphs
• Bolt Escape and its morphs

Templar:

• Puncturing Swipes and its morphs
• Spear Shards
• Sun Fire (great for speed reduction)
• Ritual of Retribution (when a NB stands in it, it pulls them out of cloak)

Nightblade

• Mark Target and its morphs
• Path of darkness (and morph that deals damage)
• Aspect of terror
• Drain power and its morphs

Misc:

• Caltrops
• That spin to win move in duel wield
• Magelight
• Magic Detonation (that stays on the NB player)
• Revealing Flare
• Detection pots
• If you really want.....Wall of elements

TBH, I am not too familiar with the Warden and Necro to tell you what they use to pull NB out of cloak except the beetle move from Warden. I am also all magic builds expect my StamSorc so I probably missed some stam counters. Anyone can add or correct anything I listed but I listed all the things that I have used to pull NBs out of cloak and also what has pulled me out of cloak.

If you don't set yourself up for fighting back cloakers...then that is on you. Everyone has a certain amount of skills they can place on their bar and you can't counter EVERYTHING with ease. It takes experience and knowledge of other classes and builds to know what you can use to work on pressure points on the build. Even simply running your enemy out of resources is a counter (example: A Stambalde can only cloak so many times. Keep pulling them out and they will run out of Magicka to use on Cloak. If you face a Mageblade, they are a lot slower than Stamblades, especially since they got rid of the movement speed from some NB skills. Plus Mageblades don't have a lot of stamina so keep CC on them and you got em! So Stamblade -> Run their Magic out. Mageblades -> Run their Stamina out).

EDIT: I think that howl from the Werewolf can fear NB out of cloak. Someone correct me.

AOE’s are more of a soft counter as you will seldom never kill any competent NB with AOE damage alone.

There’s a medium armored passives called “Athletics” this passive increases the movement speed bonus of sprint.

As a light armor wearer this means in a situation where we both have access to major expedition(RAT vs Bow), you the night blade will 1) have more stam to make use of sprint more often and 2) while we are both sprinting you will still move faster than I can.

this dynamic stated above creates very very common situations were I use volatile armor multiple times to pull you out of cloak and fail do to the natural speed advantages you have.

1 more thing, are you sure you’ve read my entire post? If your adamant in your stance then provide a solid reason as to why my suggested nerfs are unfair to a Nightblade

Massacre_Wurm

You shouldnt have answers to everything at the same time.
Noone will balance the game around your "solo/small scale 1vsX"

CaliMade

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

You shouldnt have answers to everything at the same time.
Noone will balance the game around your "solo/small scale 1vsX"

conversely you shouldn’t have to make yourself less effective against the majority just to deal with a minority

idk

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

Unfadingsilence

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

100%

Unfadingsilence

But in all honesty @CaliMade for someone who is as good as you and your small group is why care about cloak especially since it's easy to counter if not the easiest thing to counter?

Zer0_CooL

To everyone complaining about cloak: learn to counter!! Its almost as easy as creating a treat on the ESO forum..

CaliMade

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

idk

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

CaliMade

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

But in all honesty @CaliMade for someone who is as good as you and your small group is why care about cloak especially since it's easy to counter if not the easiest thing to counter?

Combat should be enjoyable. You should be able to go into a fight and win or lose be satisfied with the experience.

this is true for me against all classes except stamblade specifically,(witch is why my suggested changes have no real effect on magnb)

It is noticeably different fighting a stam blade vs fighting any other class, the large majority of stamblade fights consist of me standing still and just waiting for a chance to counter attack, trying to hit a nightblade while dodging and cloaking will surely run me out of resources and net me very little damage. It really just ends up with me just walking away from the encounter because I cant land any relevant damage often enough to cause pressure. Or them Pelting me with Snipe from afar just to cloak before i can find out where I'm even being hit from.

The issue im having isn’t with cloak itself it is the tandem of cloak and dodge roll and how the rotation of the two minimize the effects of Single target.

My suggested changes is more of a nerf to dodge roll than anything.

Massacre_Wurm

CaliMade wrote: »

Massacre_Wurm wrote: »

You shouldnt have answers to everything at the same time.
Noone will balance the game around your "solo/small scale 1vsX"

conversely you shouldn’t have to make yourself less effective against the majority just to deal with a minority

If that minoirty bothering you so much than you should. Its not like there 10 MUST HAVE SKILLS for any class. You have some room for maneuver

CaliMade

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

You’re saying i haven’t countered your previous argument, explain.

You say “Use Counters”

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

Darkenarlol

the hate to nightblades is sronk in this one...

spend your powah on l2p instead

Noobslayer3255

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

AoEs are not niche

Magelight is not nice

Camo hunter is not niche

Curse, lightning form/hurricane, streak are not niche

Sweeps, nova, crescent sweep, ritual of retribution, solar flare, shards are not niche

Volatile armor, inhale, fiery breath are not niche

Mark target admittedly is pretty niche but still provides a great debuff vs non NBs. Sap and power drain - definitely not niche (my power drain hits almost as hard as my suprise attack now). Mass hysteria is not niche

Warden ground snare, permafrost, definitely not niche

Necro has so much aoe, multiple of which are useful against every class (Aoe based major fracture for one)

Spin2win is not niche

Quick cloak is not niche

Carve is not niche

Wall of elements is not niche

Impulse sucks but again, definitely is not at all niche.

Detect pots and flare - those are niche.

You keep saying stealth counters are niche when that is simply an objectively wrong statement.

TequilaFire

The trick is not to build a glass cannon that gets killed by a NB's first attack out of stealth, then kill them.
On my Templars kill 20 enemy night blades is my fastest bounty.

CaliMade

Noobslayer3255 wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

AoEs are not niche

Magelight is not nice

Camo hunter is not niche

Curse, lightning form/hurricane, streak are not niche

Sweeps, nova, crescent sweep, ritual of retribution, solar flare, shards are not niche

Volatile armor, inhale, fiery breath are not niche

Mark target admittedly is pretty niche but still provides a great debuff vs non NBs. Sap and power drain - definitely not niche (my power drain hits almost as hard as my suprise attack now). Mass hysteria is not niche

Warden ground snare, permafrost, definitely not niche

Necro has so much aoe, multiple of which are useful against every class (Aoe based major fracture for one)

Spin2win is not niche

Quick cloak is not niche

Carve is not niche

Wall of elements is not niche

Impulse sucks but again, definitely is not at all niche.

Detect pots and flare - those are niche.

You keep saying stealth counters are niche when that is simply an objectively wrong statement.

Ive already addressed AOE’s, don’t feel like repeating myself. Read back and you will find my rebuttal to the “Use AOE’s” argument

CaliMade

TequilaFire wrote: »

The trick is not to build a glass cannon that gets killed by a NB's first attack out of stealth, then kill them.
On my Templars kill 20 enemy night blades is my fastest bounty.

1 nightblade damage isn’t the issue, did you even read the post?

2 I can kill multiple nightblades too, poor argument. This issue arises mostly from competent players who know a thing or two.

yodased

Every nightblade acts like that they can't just disengage and reapply cloak immediately.

You pull them from cloak 5 times, they cloak 6. They are faster than you are to re position and get into L.O.S. to grab a quick crit heal.

Cloak itself is not broken, its the ability to reapply it immediately after resources are spent to remove them from it. So i'm supposed to spam an aoe in hopes that they are close enough to grab them, in which they roll on their bow and are gone and recloaking before I can position to attack, which resets the fight.

The problem is this: A well played stamblade will never lose a 1v1 against anything other than another stamblade.

I understand and accept that the game is not even close to being designed for 1v1, but thats the disconnect here.

There is no other spec or class that can say that the way a stamblade can.

Thats the big problem, thats the main issue with the hatred of stamblades. Thats why you are all zerged down the second you are popped out of stealth, because everyone knows you can just start deleting people 1 by 1 at your leisure, if you are a skilled player using a stamblade.

The counters are there, sure and you may be able to stalemate some nightblades and a lot of them actually are pretty "cowardly" and only want to crutch on stealth, but even the stamblades that use cloak defensively to repositon and attack you are not being beat 1v1.

That is super frustrating. If you main a stamblade and you try to argue this, please present me with a person is supposed to do against you?

aoes and mage light are good against lower to medium tier nightblades especially if they over reach.

Detect potions are your hard counter to them and there is a magic detect pot, so that is a good counter, but you are giving up a lot to not run tripots with the amount of cc breaking blocking and dodging you have to do.

I have thought a lot about cloak and why stamblade is pretty much universally hated, and why it is considered a "I win" class by so many.

Its because in the right hands they will delete you before you understand what happened and if they don't delete you in the initial burst they will reset the fight and try again with little to no recourse on your point.

Invisibility and speed are the two most powerful offensive and defensive tools and stamblade has them both.

TequilaFire

CaliMade wrote: »

TequilaFire wrote: »

The trick is not to build a glass cannon that gets killed by a NB's first attack out of stealth, then kill them.
On my Templars kill 20 enemy night blades is my fastest bounty.

1 nightblade damage isn’t the issue, did you even read the post?

2 I can kill multiple nightblades too, poor argument. This issue arises mostly from competent players who know a thing or two.

I read the post, your problem is you don't want to do anything to counter nightblades.
The best way to counter a nightblade's cloak is to kill them.

idk

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

CaliMade wrote: »

idk wrote: »

What I do see here, overall, is an avoidance to use the counters to stealth that are available.

I can attest to the fact they work great as long as they player actually uses them and figures out how to use them effectively. But that is a choice some of us make while others do not.

I understand the counters point.
My counter argument to that is also stated in my post, but I’ll elaborate.

I’m a big small-scaled player, rarely in a group more than 2-3 players and playing alot of time solo.

I often run into situations where I have to deal with multiple players, for me to run detect potions I have to give up potions that would be useful against every other class.
for me to hide my befoul enchant with a conspicuous poison. I’m making myself significantly less effective against any class with healing to deal with nightblades. That’s my issue with the counters. The counters required for nightblades are niche and force you to be less effective against the other 5 classes in the game.

The very fact there are hard counters and you specifically say you area choosing to not use them in certain situation says it all. The game is about choices so saying you would rather use something else than a counter is not justification for a nerf.

I would also suggest that it is irrelevant that you run in extremely small groups as the game is not and should not be designed around very small groups. Again that is a choice. I say that as one who runs solo if not running with a small group. When I am with a small group each person is responsible for certain skill types. Maybe some improvement with your group is needed.

Sorry to mess up your idea with a little logic.

To say the game isn’t and shouldn’t be designed around a specific play style is true , but my specific play style doesn’t change the Fact that current nb counters are niche, and at the end of the day require you to reach farther than is needed to deal with any other classes gimmicks.

Also to say the game shouldn’t at least be attentive to all the ways to enjoy the game is also false, Do I need to remind you of bgs? literally a mode made for small scale pvp. yet this issue remains the same. Using detect pots over anything that gives stamina on a magicka based character is akin to self hate in bgs.

The game should be balanced around small scale just as much as large scale and solo.

No other class forces you to use something that would be completely ineffective against the rest of the game.

Your attempt at the dramatic to make a point does not make it a solid point, more of a gimmick.

I cannot help it you are challenged with using counters but all you are asking for is this game to be nerfed to your playstyle or groups capability and have said nothing that counters what I stated previously. What is funny is even when I run solo I can handle countering NBs cloak yet your groups of 3ish finds it so challenging.

You’re saying i haven’t countered your previous argument, explain.

You say “Use Counters”

I say “ Counters are niche, and the nature of said counters are evidence of a needed change”

What am I missing?

Enlighten me on any other class that requires counters that are completely ineffective against the rest of the game. Please.

I made it clear. Saying counters are niche because you do not want to use them is rather inane as that same line of thought would literally remove much of the skills we have in the game.

By your line of thought Zos must remove all DoT damage, all snares because cleanses are niche. Calling the hard counters niche merely because you do not want to use them, make room for them on your build does not stand solid.

if that does not help you find what you are missing then I cannot help you. As I said, I fun solo and still manage to be able to fit a clock counter. I am sure you group leader can help your team figure out how to handle something so simple and straight forward.

EDIT: I suggest when finding something to be challenging to search for a solution, to rise to the occasion, rather than asking the situation to be nerfed to your playstyle. Find a solution so you or one of your group members can fit a counter into the build which may mean using a different counter than the potions you mentioned. It really is that simple.

idk

yodased wrote: »

You pull them from cloak 5 times, they cloak 6. They are faster than you are to re position and get into L.O.S. to grab a quick crit heal.

Odd. I tend to not let them cloak a second time. Killing them helps prevent them using cloak again. I am not poking fun, but being literal. yea, sometimes they get the best of me as I am not perfect but I if I am having to pull them out of close half a dozen times they probably deserve to win the day.

yodased

idk wrote: »

yodased wrote: »

You pull them from cloak 5 times, they cloak 6. They are faster than you are to re position and get into L.O.S. to grab a quick crit heal.

Odd. I tend to not let them cloak a second time. Killing them helps prevent them using cloak again. I am not poking fun, but being literal. yea, sometimes they get the best of me as I am not perfect but I if I am having to pull them out of close half a dozen times they probably deserve to win the day.

How are you not letting them not recloak? Meaning you already have the counters we have said exist on your bar ready to go, so you are always anticipating 1v1 a stamblade?

You main a stamclass or a class with no mobility issues? Because if you are on a class without mobility, and you don't have a detect pot off cooldown, you are not stopping them from recloaking.