And behold, the two extremes of the combat system, that are inevitably drawn together, only to be pushed further apart. Base TTK is far too low, so people build tanky, so people build for higher damage, so base TTK is pushed even lower, so people build tanky...
Combat needs to be normalized such that nobody feels forced into the extremes to stand a chance. Damage needs to be brought down, at the same time that survival needs to be brought down. Unfortunately, this requires more than just adjusting numbers, so it probably won't happen.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »But what about the tank meta?
That's not a thing in BG's. It's weird because you do see it in NoCP Cyro but it's almost like the BG Battle Spirit is totally different.
The tank meta isn't as bad in BG's, or non-CP in general really, but it absolutely is a thing. A fair few times I've ran across builds with 30k+ health that take next to no damage, but can turn around and drop you. And a fair few more times I've ran across builds with upwards of 40k health, that don't deal much damage, but can absolutely hold an objective, even with multiple people on them.
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »But what about the tank meta?
The problem is that both damage and healing are too high. You are either at full health or zero. There needs to be more play between 33% and 66% health to have more interesting engagements.
The problem is that both damage and healing are too high. You are either at full health or zero. There needs to be more play between 33% and 66% health to have more interesting engagements.
Yup, I’ve said this for a while. Increase the pvp buff to 10k health and add a crit resists mundus stone.
The glass canons who depend on bursting people would hate it, but everyone else would love it.
It would also reduce the value of shields because people couldn’t be bursted in less then 3 seconds.
The problem is that both damage and healing are too high. You are either at full health or zero. There needs to be more play between 33% and 66% health to have more interesting engagements.
Yup, I’ve said this for a while. Increase the pvp buff to 10k health and add a crit resists mundus stone.
The glass canons who depend on bursting people would hate it, but everyone else would love it.
It would also reduce the value of shields because people couldn’t be bursted in less then 3 seconds.
Toc de Malsvi wrote: »That said I really don't think it is good for the health of the game for active mitigation to provide such a drastic difference in performance, as much as it might be distasteful to those who use it to its fullest extent.
Moonsorrow wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »That said I really don't think it is good for the health of the game for active mitigation to provide such a drastic difference in performance, as much as it might be distasteful to those who use it to its fullest extent.
How and when to use the active mitigation (to not go out of resources, when to LoS instead to save resources, having a balanced build with enough damage yet enough to avoid damage at right times) should always be the thing that decides a win or loss.
You know what happens without active mitigation and knowledge when to use it being most important part of the game? It will be decided with just numbers. So the one with more numbers and first to hit you will always win. Interesting gameplay? I think NOT.
Things like that only empower the zergling playstyle where smashing 1 button with enough numbers would mean winning if several of them on you. Now can atleast dodge roll to LoS and strategically fight them.
Surely you must troll or do you seriously want to remove the whole skillful play, situational awareness, movement, resource management from the game that IS known as active mitigation. You know, to ACTIVELY play the game and do the right things instead of just 1 tank set + 2 proc sets and then running in a group spamming gap closer and 1 damage skill?
Seriously?
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »But what about the tank meta?
There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.
All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.
HA HA HA.
Super sturdy brawler builds are everywhere in no-CP battlegrounds. Pure 'tanks' with 40k health and stacked mitigation are rare, its true, but the tanky meta-brawler builds are a thing. 25-30k health, good mitigation, supercharged heals & enough burst & dps to rack up kills.
Next time you run into one, record it. I'm guessing it's a snipe spammer or another source of dps getting you or you bleeding out. I would like to see this
Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Reducing the effectiveness of the mitigation provided by active mitigation is one way to tackle this issue. I would like to stress though it is not the only way.
Moonsorrow wrote: »My observations from yesterday evenings battlegrounds, did around 20 of them at PC EU, solo queue, was that yes, some people die fast yes, but most really not. What separated them on my observation, well not really anything new, it has been like that since always in this game on Cyrodiil open world too, that people who do yolo moves, like in on open areas to gap close to other melee and open themselves up to take ranged damage from all sides on top of that get melted, obviously.
New people overly extend themselves like crazy out in open. After a while, you know the experienced players from how they move. They move so that always use LoS objects to not expose themselves too much to damage from many directions. Watching the angles where snipe spammers and magsorcs can pew pew you the minimum amount all the while you getting to smash enemies down. How you move and the decisions you make when and where to attack makes the BIGGEST difference on survival. Trust me on this.
I facepalm when i see things like someone gap closing in the center ring flag as an example against couple targets standing on the flag with several ranged enemies from the 3rd team at the upper level or edges of it, depending on map.. you know you get ranged spammed to death in seconds right? "i die in seconds!!" Well, duh... to your own mistake.
Own decisions and movement makes the biggest impact on the whole experience of PVP.
Using myself as an example, last night in those 20 bg matches i died 6 times. Yes, that is 6 times in all 20. And those happened when had couple matches against same discord premade. Yes, they chased me with effort lol. Average match was 12-0-10. Solo so no pocket healer. Stamsorc. 5p medium armor. DW/2H so melee in medium.
Biggest difference between my experience of pvp (not really dying fast or much) and the people who go do yolo decisions and die a lot? Just that i used a corridor that had full LoS to upstairs and hit them ranged people first. Most ranged go nearly full damage so get them first, not go gap closing the tanky one holding the flag while ranged peeps spam you to death. It is just all about simple decisions like that. Same in pure death matches, positioning, movement and timing is the key.
I hope this wall of text was a bit more helpful if anyone can look back on some of their deaths at pvp and see what could have made differently. Some would just say the "L2P" but i atleast try to describe what i see the problem is for many. and for that does not need to nerf or buff anything, just train decision making, moving, kiting, rolling, blocking when needs. Comes with experience if willing to learn.
[
This is only true for a solo type gameplay. When you go against premades or groups with healers in BGs these kind of groups always lose.
Moonsorrow wrote: »[
This is only true for a solo type gameplay. When you go against premades or groups with healers in BGs these kind of groups always lose.
When solo queuing (i do most times) yeah the times when against discord premades (people i know and sometimes team up with too) depends on mood, either avoiding them and scoring kills in and out when opportunity when they focus on others.. or trolling them with CC and making them chase me and hoping someone from my team uses that time to score some points, depending on bg mode.
Because really often when against a premade i end up being only one left on my team (or people come in and leave when see certain groups), when many solo players just leave the bg because without comms trying to take down a pro team with a dedicated healer..
But that whole premade vs real random groups is an issue of its own just because we do not have separate queues.
New people when they get steamrolled by a tight group will eventually learn that there is not a problem in the actual game mechanics, if they were on that group coordinating ultimates and having a dedicated healer keeping them topped up, they would be the one killing others fast instead of dying fast.
YEARS ago i also died fast. I admit that. Because of my own mistakes.
lol i still remember the first and one of the most important things what started to make me a better pvp player on ESO - putting important things like Break free on its own key binds on keys that were comfortable to use for me on my keyboard instead of the basic settings.
2nd was when i decided to not join big groups but to always when defending keeps to be fighting outside and not shoot from walls. So i went always, even alone to harass the siegers no matter how many was there. It was me gitting gud with the do it or die trying method. I was cute and innocent back then. Nowadays i run circles around rocks and farm people with expressionless face. Just joking, its fun.
Sidetracked a bit sorry.. Time for some Cyrodiil now, hope all have a good day of fun pvp action!
Moonsorrow wrote: »[
This is only true for a solo type gameplay. When you go against premades or groups with healers in BGs these kind of groups always lose.
When solo queuing (i do most times) yeah the times when against discord premades (people i know and sometimes team up with too) depends on mood, either avoiding them and scoring kills in and out when opportunity when they focus on others.. or trolling them with CC and making them chase me and hoping someone from my team uses that time to score some points, depending on bg mode.
Because really often when against a premade i end up being only one left on my team (or people come in and leave when see certain groups), when many solo players just leave the bg because without comms trying to take down a pro team with a dedicated healer..
But that whole premade vs real random groups is an issue of its own just because we do not have separate queues.
New people when they get steamrolled by a tight group will eventually learn that there is not a problem in the actual game mechanics, if they were on that group coordinating ultimates and having a dedicated healer keeping them topped up, they would be the one killing others fast instead of dying fast.
YEARS ago i also died fast. I admit that. Because of my own mistakes.
lol i still remember the first and one of the most important things what started to make me a better pvp player on ESO - putting important things like Break free on its own key binds on keys that were comfortable to use for me on my keyboard instead of the basic settings.
2nd was when i decided to not join big groups but to always when defending keeps to be fighting outside and not shoot from walls. So i went always, even alone to harass the siegers no matter how many was there. It was me gitting gud with the do it or die trying method. I was cute and innocent back then. Nowadays i run circles around rocks and farm people with expressionless face. Just joking, its fun.
Sidetracked a bit sorry.. Time for some Cyrodiil now, hope all have a good day of fun pvp action!
I’ve been accused of being in premades all the time, when really I’m solo queuing. I think the thing is to recognize your team mates and adapt.
I was looking at my win rate in death matches and I’m over 50% in higher MMR, that must be against premades too. It can be done, but admittedly me being a healer makes things so much easier. There are a lot of good players who only queue solo.
Moonsorrow wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Reducing the effectiveness of the mitigation provided by active mitigation is one way to tackle this issue. I would like to stress though it is not the only way.
No thanks.
Pretty much the only people who play archers & other ranged projectile spammers and generic zerglings see a problem with dodge and block mitigation. Nerfing dodge and block empowers snipe spam type of play and it would also make surviving ganks even harder. You know, the topic here started because of too fast deaths.
Oh wait, i forgot you play archers on all classes.. Nevermind.
You would actually make people die even faster to just ranged 1 button snipe spammers.
Cannot really take you seriously after this, sorry.
And as always as a bonus, you would just end up nerfing tanking for pve too. But who cares huh? As long as snipe hits harder yayyyy...
There is a saying: No need to start fixing something that is not broken. Your model of nerfing active mitigations, then nerfing damages, then healing, then sets, then __insert your next "good" idea here_, would start the whole damage number balancing from scratch too. Same for healing, everything almost what comes to combat mechanics.
Or people who die a lot just train and fight until not die so much? No need for massive balance nightmare. I guess too simple solution?
Game mechanics are good and nice right now. Performance issues if fixed things would be nearly perfect.
Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Moonsorrow wrote: »Toc de Malsvi wrote: »Reducing the effectiveness of the mitigation provided by active mitigation is one way to tackle this issue. I would like to stress though it is not the only way.
No thanks.
Pretty much the only people who play archers & other ranged projectile spammers and generic zerglings see a problem with dodge and block mitigation. Nerfing dodge and block empowers snipe spam type of play and it would also make surviving ganks even harder. You know, the topic here started because of too fast deaths.
Oh wait, i forgot you play archers on all classes.. Nevermind.
You would actually make people die even faster to just ranged 1 button snipe spammers.
Cannot really take you seriously after this, sorry.
And as always as a bonus, you would just end up nerfing tanking for pve too. But who cares huh? As long as snipe hits harder yayyyy...
There is a saying: No need to start fixing something that is not broken. Your model of nerfing active mitigations, then nerfing damages, then healing, then sets, then __insert your next "good" idea here_, would start the whole damage number balancing from scratch too. Same for healing, everything almost what comes to combat mechanics.
Or people who die a lot just train and fight until not die so much? No need for massive balance nightmare. I guess too simple solution?
Game mechanics are good and nice right now. Performance issues if fixed things would be nearly perfect.
Feel free to scan my youtube channel for my snipe spam. I'm sure I used it more than twice somewhere in there .
It might be intelligent to actually consider the argument or discussion instead of resulting to personal attacks with no actual knowledge of the person you are attempting to attack.
Your bigotry aside, there is legitimate reason to argue that changes may make things worse. That doesn't invalidate that active mitigation may be the direct cause of the perceived too-tanky/too-bursty pvp experience.
I think one thing leading to a bursty experience is lag. I died once and looked at my death recap and there was almost nothing there except my Healthy Offering self damage and one execute. Felt to me like I went from 100-0 really fast so I’m not sure what happened, I’m thinking lag and the damage didn’t register for a bit and then all at once.