Death comes too quickly

festher

The skill and movement speed is good and the mechanics, aiming vs click is all fine. But the speed everyone dies in is stupid. I play mostly BGs and either ppl die in 1-2 sec or you die in 1-2 sec. No time for thinking or strategies. Not being able to survive atleast 6-7 sec vs 2-3 attacking enemies is meh

its not that im missing shields or inpen og hp. its everywhere. You either hide behind stuff or die. could be alot more intens imo.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

But what about the tank meta?

festher

sorry i dont see it. i see a stam-ball meta mostly. and nothing lives more than 1sec, 2 maybe

Solariken

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

That's not a thing in BG's. It's weird because you do see it in NoCP Cyro but it's almost like the BG Battle Spirit is totally different.

idk

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

Sadly this is to true in many situations.

As for OP and zergs. Unless you are with a group that knows how to take care of them then avoid feeding them.

Adernath

Sadly only people with good internet connection can generally enjoy pvp. The rest usually dies to lag. In BGs, however, that factor is smaller than in Cyro. A very large factor remains the build people are running and the choice of abilities. Since long time already the current meta is to run a tank build. Thanks to the 'balanced' combat system, these builds can still dish out enough damage to be extremely effective. As soon as this is set up, around 30-40% I would say is actual skill. The stronger the build the less skill is obviously required.

jcm2606

And behold, the two extremes of the combat system, that are inevitably drawn together, only to be pushed further apart. Base TTK is far too low, so people build tanky, so people build for higher damage, so base TTK is pushed even lower, so people build tanky...

Combat needs to be normalized such that nobody feels forced into the extremes to stand a chance. Damage needs to be brought down, at the same time that survival needs to be brought down. Unfortunately, this requires more than just adjusting numbers, so it probably won't happen.

Solariken wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

That's not a thing in BG's. It's weird because you do see it in NoCP Cyro but it's almost like the BG Battle Spirit is totally different.

The tank meta isn't as bad in BG's, or non-CP in general really, but it absolutely is a thing. A fair few times I've ran across builds with 30k+ health that take next to no damage, but can turn around and drop you. And a fair few more times I've ran across builds with upwards of 40k health, that don't deal much damage, but can absolutely hold an objective, even with multiple people on them.

Soundinfinite

Isn't this though the point of healers. Everyone screams healers have no role and are useless and most content can be done without them. Trials seem to be the only exception, though even there healers are meant to be more debuff/buff bots than actual healers...but still there is a point to them...

However, in BG at least, a group where 1 of the 4 is a dedicated healer, a strong good dedicated healer, things change considerably. In short, the group can hardly be brought down. You can throw everything u have and it's like your scratching them. And the only way to make progress is to find who the healer is and your whole team focus them down so you have a chance at killing the rest of the group. In high MMR, where all groups playing have healers, BG becomes a slugfest. A Deathmatch will last the whole 15 min and the end scores won't even reach 200. There will be hardly any deaths and that 1 to 3 seconds turns into mintues of survival if you even die at all.

Cyrodiil is a bit different because of the sheer number of players that can be in a battle and also the large space a battle can take place. Still, no top teir PVP group goes in without dedicated healers and normally a rather large number of them. Healers make the survival rate and success rate of the team become at least threefold compared to without. And again makes the 1 to 2 second survival become a much much better number.

I think the game damage and mitigation design takes healers into consideration so they have their place. And I think that is a good thing. And gives them worth. Now if they could just tweak the scoring for healers so they can be just rewarded for the work they do.

If u just look at tank vs dps design and say it's flawed, it is because you are forgetting the 3rd factor of the equation, HEALs.

Jeremy

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

Jeremy

festher wrote: »

The skill and movement speed is good and the mechanics, aiming vs click is all fine. But the speed everyone dies in is stupid. I play mostly BGs and either ppl die in 1-2 sec or you die in 1-2 sec. No time for thinking or strategies. Not being able to survive atleast 6-7 sec vs 2-3 attacking enemies is meh

its not that im missing shields or inpen og hp. its everywhere. You either hide behind stuff or die. could be alot more intens imo.

Yeah this is a major problem with this game generally, but it's especially true in PvP. Death happens so fast it's just dumb - it isn't any fun - and makes the PvP boring, especially the zerg battles. This can be somewhat offset in battlegrounds by gearing defensively since the odds are kept relatively even - or playing as a Nightblade so you can cloak. But if you think battlegrounds are bad i would avoid Zergodil like the plague because the zerg fights in there are a million times worse than in battlegrounds. You literally die in a nonosecond. It's just stupid.

The basic truth is: this game's PvP just doesn't function well on the large scale and seems to be balanced around 1v1 fights instead of taking into account what should have been obvious - that players are frequently and often (99.9% of the time) going to be ganged up on by other players. They should have designed their PvP systems with that in mind. God knows why they didn't.

festher

Jeremy wrote: »

festher wrote: »

The skill and movement speed is good and the mechanics, aiming vs click is all fine. But the speed everyone dies in is stupid. I play mostly BGs and either ppl die in 1-2 sec or you die in 1-2 sec. No time for thinking or strategies. Not being able to survive atleast 6-7 sec vs 2-3 attacking enemies is meh

its not that im missing shields or inpen og hp. its everywhere. You either hide behind stuff or die. could be alot more intens imo.

Yeah this is a major problem with this game generally, but it's especially true in PvP. Death happens so fast it's just dumb - it isn't any fun - and makes the PvP boring, especially the zerg battles. This can be somewhat offset in battlegrounds by gearing defensively since the odds are kept relatively even - or playing as a Nightblade so you can cloak. But if you think battlegrounds are bad i would avoid Zergodil like the plague because the zerg fights in there are a million times worse than in battlegrounds. You literally die in a nonosecond. It's just stupid.

The basic truth is: this game's PvP just doesn't function well on the large scale and seems to be balanced around 1v1 fights instead of taking into account what should have been obvious - that players are frequently and often (99.9% of the time) going to be ganged up on by other players. They should have designed their PvP systems with that in mind. God knows why they didn't.

yes you are absolutly right. PvP is about Burst vs. Recover. But when you have 2-3 people bursting 1 guy, he just dies in 1-2 sec. Where as had it been 1v1, he had lost 50% hp and healed to full again.

fred4

I suspect people who do BGs build glass cannons, because BG scoring - Deathmatch at least - rewards kills and doesn't really punish deaths.

Qbiken

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

Have one in group running blackrose resto staff and you can roleplay CP PvP in NO-CP environments.

Tank meta exists in nocp, just acquired by different means compared to cp

Gnozo

Hm, we must be playing a different game. With enough experience and the right build you can also survive good in NoCP against several enemies.

Ofc when 3-4 good players punch you, you gonna die no matter what. But i see a lot of players tanking damage while still doing average damage. I can do the same. It just all comes down to practice and expierience...

Skander

The meta is, in non cp, having 1 dedicated useless in everything but healing guy, and 3 stamina "i can go out doing massive damage becouse the game allows me to and i can be offensive 24/7 becouse vigor and healbot carry".


If you don't have a group similar, you have lost before even beginning

Gnozo

Skander wrote: »

The meta is, in non cp, having 1 dedicated useless in everything but healing guy, and 3 stamina "i can go out doing massive damage becouse the game allows me to and i can be offensive 24/7 becouse vigor and healbot carry".


If you don't have a group similar, you have lost before even beginning

The hate against stam is real

Lokey0024

fred4 wrote: »

I suspect people who do BGs build glass cannons, because BG scoring - Deathmatch at least - rewards kills and doesn't really punish deaths.

I built glass cannon in BGs but understanding you need an out. Magika slot mist on a o$417 bar (or streak) and Stam needs bow/evasion to get away. Anything else and you're basically "all in" and you better be a tank. Even as a tank you tap block without going all in with reduced block cost enchanted and sturdy it's like 5k a second Stam in a killzone. Good luck.

LordTareq

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

HA HA HA.

Super sturdy brawler builds are everywhere in no-CP battlegrounds. Pure 'tanks' with 40k health and stacked mitigation are rare, its true, but the tanky meta-brawler builds are a thing. 25-30k health, good mitigation, supercharged heals & enough burst & dps to rack up kills.

Lokey0024

LordTareq wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

HA HA HA.

Super sturdy brawler builds are everywhere in no-CP battlegrounds. Pure 'tanks' with 40k health and stacked mitigation are rare, its true, but the tanky meta-brawler builds are a thing. 25-30k health, good mitigation, supercharged heals & enough burst & dps to rack up kills.

Next time you run into one, record it. I'm guessing it's a snipe spammer or another source of dps getting you or you bleeding out. I would like to see this

Seraphayel

Gnozo wrote: »

Skander wrote: »

The meta is, in non cp, having 1 dedicated useless in everything but healing guy, and 3 stamina "i can go out doing massive damage becouse the game allows me to and i can be offensive 24/7 becouse vigor and healbot carry".


If you don't have a group similar, you have lost before even beginning

The hate against stam is real

It’s not hate but the Stamina Meta for PvP has been going on too long.

Iskiab

festher wrote: »

The skill and movement speed is good and the mechanics, aiming vs click is all fine. But the speed everyone dies in is stupid. I play mostly BGs and either ppl die in 1-2 sec or you die in 1-2 sec. No time for thinking or strategies. Not being able to survive atleast 6-7 sec vs 2-3 attacking enemies is meh

its not that im missing shields or inpen og hp. its everywhere. You either hide behind stuff or die. could be alot more intens imo.

What’s your class and spec? I can help you out a bit. Basicly BG perspective revolves around the player’s approach to their build and playstyle:

The complain about tank meta group:

They like quick combat and design their build around being able to burst someone in 3 GCDs. Other players are building tankier to counter then so they’re going even more glass canon. Problem is if they’re caught they can be light attacked down because their defense is pitiful. Mostly sorcs and NBs because in a high burst meta their escape tools are king and want to keep their mobility advantage.

The Duelling Group:

They want BGs to be like duels which are quick, sustain isn’t that important, and fully upgraded gear matters most. Going for as high stats as possible means your damage and self healing are really high so they can dish out a lot of damage and negate one person’s damage fairly easily even with low passive mitigation because of high active mitigation. This is the group that complains about zergs and whatnot, they’ll also talk about burst combos a lot like a pvp is 1v1.

The group pvp crowd:

They favour teamwork more and individually being able to kill someone isn’t as important as overall effectiveness. They’ll build tankier then most because they want the passive defense for when they’re being attacked by multiple people. I’d say I’m in this group so if I’m biased it’d be in favour of this style.

In reality I’d say the best groups are a mix of the 2nd and 3rd styles. Best groups for pvp are two mag; one mostly healing, one mostly damage, a sorc and a stam. Idk why people say stam’s are favoured, vigor’s good but is nowhere near enough self healing against two people. A healer helps so much more.

CompM4s

battlegrounds is team oriented so it is not that crazy to assume that the team with the best group composition will win.

Lokey0024

Have you considered using any escape mechanics or Tactics not to get melted instantly?

I could be wrong but magika seems very limited to access to defile.

Jeremy

LordTareq wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

HA HA HA.

Super sturdy brawler builds are everywhere in no-CP battlegrounds. Pure 'tanks' with 40k health and stacked mitigation are rare, its true, but the tanky meta-brawler builds are a thing. 25-30k health, good mitigation, supercharged heals & enough burst & dps to rack up kills.

There is a huge difference in being sturdy and then some unkillable meta that does great damage. A good group of 4 can burn down 40k health and max resistance in seconds - if that. I've never seen an unkillable tank in none CP PvP - not ever. It just doesn't exist.

Now of course if a glass cannon meets a player who has a defense and offense the glass cannon is likely to lose. But that has nothing to do with some "tank meta". It simply has to do with the fact one player is poorly built and the other isn't. In PvP you need defense as well as offense.

bardx86

Jeremy wrote: »

LordTareq wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

But what about the tank meta?

There is no "tank meta". At least not in none CP PvP - which this OP is referring to since they mention battlegrounds.

All of these supposed unkillable tanks running around with great damage is a myth. They simply don't exist. It's a forum conspiracy as far as I'm concerned.

HA HA HA.

Super sturdy brawler builds are everywhere in no-CP battlegrounds. Pure 'tanks' with 40k health and stacked mitigation are rare, its true, but the tanky meta-brawler builds are a thing. 25-30k health, good mitigation, supercharged heals & enough burst & dps to rack up kills.

There is a huge difference in being sturdy and then some unkillable meta that does great damage. A good group of 4 can burn down 40k health and max resistance in seconds - if that. I've never seen an unkillable tank in none CP PvP - not ever. It just doesn't exist.

Now of course if a glass cannon meets a player who has a defense and offense the glass cannon is likely to lose. But that has nothing to do with some "tank meta". It simply has to do with the fact one player is poorly built and the other isn't. In PvP you need defense as well as offense.

There are unkillable tanks in NO CP.

I have to disagree with your tank meets glass. This should be a tie at best however tank build do to much damage currently.

Ozazz

l2p

bmnoble

I think its more due to a lack of healers in battlegrounds.

In SWTOR equivalent, you see all 3 roles used, to the point where some matches, you get a slug-fest as neither side is able to out damage the heals of the other side.

Didn't happen all the time but often enough that, they had to bring in acid at the end of the match time limits, so there would not be undecided matches, even if the only result was the last side with a team member to be killed by the acid was the victor.

JumpmanLane

Jeremy wrote: »

festher wrote: »

The skill and movement speed is good and the mechanics, aiming vs click is all fine. But the speed everyone dies in is stupid. I play mostly BGs and either ppl die in 1-2 sec or you die in 1-2 sec. No time for thinking or strategies. Not being able to survive atleast 6-7 sec vs 2-3 attacking enemies is meh

its not that im missing shields or inpen og hp. its everywhere. You either hide behind stuff or die. could be alot more intens imo.

Yeah this is a major problem with this game generally, but it's especially true in PvP. Death happens so fast it's just dumb - it isn't any fun - and makes the PvP boring, especially the zerg battles. This can be somewhat offset in battlegrounds by gearing defensively since the odds are kept relatively even - or playing as a Nightblade so you can cloak. But if you think battlegrounds are bad i would avoid Zergodil like the plague because the zerg fights in there are a million times worse than in battlegrounds. You literally die in a nonosecond. It's just stupid.

The basic truth is: this game's PvP just doesn't function well on the large scale and seems to be balanced around 1v1 fights instead of taking into account what should have been obvious - that players are frequently and often (99.9% of the time) going to be ganged up on by other players. They should have designed their PvP systems with that in mind. God knows why they didn't.

You might need to learn to kite. Get a lil LOS. For real. Every time I encounter a Zerg I end up going on a 10 to 20 kill streak.

Kite the fools. Kill the squirrels.

Toc de Malsvi

I think this phenomenon is due to scaling of damage and healing to offset active mitigation. Active mitigation Block/Dodge specifically have near infinite ceiling for mitigation.

Block you have to build for a certain level of resource loss then everyting beyond that is cake. It doesn't provide 100% mitigation but it will provide 50% or more to most damage sources.

Dodge can mitigate projectiles a smaller subset that block can, but can mitigate an infinite number of them within the dodge window. So they have tweaked the window size and cost to try and balance the fact that dodge is insane versus projectiles.

No set in the game will provide the same ceiling of mitigation that block and dodge provide as active mitigation. However some sets provide disproportionate levels of power, ie healing/mitigation/damage.

So if you run into average to bad players without the best combinations they take most of the damage you are putting out upfront with only their passive resists mitigating it. Then because they don't run super high resists they mostly melt.

Then you run into top end coordinated groups taking advantage of every disproportionate gear and skill combo, and they seem impossible to kill and can still turn and burn the average player with ease.

Top end vs top end it is very hard to kill without good coordination and tactics. Many top end players build tanky and rely on pancaking new players that don't understand the game, waiting for the average decent player to make a pivotal mistake or lag, and relying on group coordination for the toughest players.

Depending on what you want from the game depends on whether this is all desirable for you. Personally I think active mitigation is too strong and should be toned back. I think active mitigation provides the illusion that some players are invincible and others incredibly weak. The change between those that are great at active mitigation and those that are bad is so drastic that it leads to huge disparities in experience.

Toc de Malsvi

I say all this from a perspective of someone who does not run a meta build. I do quite well with my archer builds but they fall flat against the best groups. It is okay at best versus the top end BGs and terrible at worst. It is a game of constant pressure with good mobility and healing. But a semi-hard-capped mitigation ceiling as dodge is my primary active defense and block only for emergencies.

However against random average players I am playing a demi-god that rocks them with something they were never prepared for. I am fully aware of the deficiencies of my choices and constantly work to mitigate them while still playing the archetype that I enjoy. That said I really don't think it is good for the health of the game for active mitigation to provide such a drastic difference in performance, as much as it might be distasteful to those who use it to its fullest extent.

SirMewser

In BGs, it has gotten to the point that I know what team is going to win by tapping in to see the names on teams.
On the other hand, I take it as a complement for having the same MMR as they do, do be there.

Besides the point though.

Knowing or being able to presume the nature of combat is what discourages people and leaves a bad taste.
I doubt if there is a true root cause of this, in your case BGs, because I know there is a lot more happening.
Reality is, balance is not possible, it's just a cycle of different meta each update.
I'm sure that's not news to you either though.

So my question to you now is, what do you hope to get from this discussion? (So like, we know how to help you better.)