In a lot of ways, I think ESO has the worst playerbase skill wise.

leepalmer95 · June 2019

Knowledge wrote: »

I disagree. Some of the PVPers in this game are extremely skilled. Some of the content 90% of the people in this thread have not and will not complete. In comparison, Antorus raid on mythic in WoW was beaten in several days, Savage and Ultimate Savage in FFXIV were cleared much faster than the content in this game.

This games content and players are superior.

Most of the good pvp players are all old school players where being good actually mattered.

The game went more and more casual friendly as it went on and skill became less important, builds, groups/ classes etc.. all took over.

Newer player didn't really bother to take the time to get good at the game which involved repeatedly trying to 1vX or 2vX and getting bodied until you eventually got the hang of it. Now every is so scared of dying they all run supertanky low dmg builds but run in massive groups and rely on OP crutch sets and mechanics.

Targeting the right person with ults, countering skills, positioning, knowing when the block/ dodge certain skills, knowing the best way to counter a class, being able to roll dodge/ block/ even reflect some ults added some counterplay. Tunning around in a squishy but hard hitting setup that can easily burst people in 2s but can also easily be burst and the only thing stopping that was the players skill.

Now 'skilled' players run around in a 8-16 man group, all run tanky builds and are basically carried by off heals, op sets and healbots (who don#t even manually heal the game basically does it for them) then just group people up and drop ults.

I'd 100% say the average skill level of players in the game has got lower and lower and more old players leave and new players get the game handed to them.

You can tell as you run around pvp, there is a large amount of max cp, high pvp rankplayers who are so clueless and its amazing how they can play the game and that character for so long but still think 35k hp and light attack or heavy lightning staff is a good tactic.

Toc de Malsvi · June 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Drako_Ei wrote: »

griffkhalifa wrote: »

Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I haven't had any trouble completing vet dungeons with PUGs since I came back to the game about a month ago.

Anyway, maybe you should find a guild to run dungeons with instead of PUGs.

Let me guess... you are a dps that can pull 50k+ right, i challenge you to queue for veteran moon hunter keep ... as tank...

In ESO player's defense - that dungeon is pretty stupid. There are probably more one shots and DPS races in that dungeon then probably all of WoW's dungeons combined. Even the random trash can instantly kill you in that place - and there is hardly any warning either. Just a little hop...and then you're dead. So I never hold it against my group if we die in that hell hole.

Everyone is always an expert when they're on the forum anyway. People are too proud to admit when something is hard. But I pug all the time and I see even very skilled players die on this game routinely. It happens to everyone - even the forum experts trust me. I remember when they first released Falkreath Hold and even the developers were getting owned by the last boss. And they made the game. I've also seen many of the same posters on this forum who love to talk about how skilled they are and how unskilled everyone else is (I'm not going to name names so don't ask) struggle in these dungeons just like pugs often do.

Not even close.

Azyle1 · June 2019

I know Necros just came out but you didn't need to Necro this topic from last year.

Xvorg · June 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

I know Necros just came out but you didn't need to Necro this topic from last year.

Do you still keep the opinion or it has changed?

Last year I would have come to defend ESO's pride as a MMO... this year things are quite different. Pew pew is the way to go, at least in PvP

Azyle1 · June 2019

Xvorg wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

I know Necros just came out but you didn't need to Necro this topic from last year.

Do you still keep the opinion or it has changed?

Last year I would have come to defend ESO's pride as a MMO... this year things are quite different. Pew pew is the way to go, at least in PvP

I'm unsure. After heavily raiding the past year, there are certainly very good players and the game suffers from obvious technical issues that don't do anyone any favors. Finally, the combat, compared to FFXIV and WoW is much harder to master. Having also recently been jumping back in a little bit into FFXIV, I can say, players there are not always great either, and I believe that content in easier.

So... good and bad all around.

Darkenarlol · June 2019

still laughing about OP's comment about WoW pugging...

it was a nonstop wipefest and disband even on normals

and noone in his mind never pugged any hard content

it always was - "link achieve"

btw i think that most unskilled playerbase is exactly in wow =D

Lokey0024 · June 2019

The age range on this game, combined with the inclusion of group finder, make for some "interesting" pairings, especially on console. Hate to say it but you need to hit that friend request button. You don't even really need to voice chat, just know they know how to make a build, stay out of the glowie stuff, and not spam just LA 90% of the time. Other players are in the same boat my friend

Cadbury · June 2019

Well, this does explain why other MMO communities like FFXIV and WoW make fun of ESO and its playerbase.

Kalgert · June 2019

Thing I have been thinking lately, while at work and not having much to do, is that there are players, on the forums in particular, that act as if they are these big experts on the field of dungeoneering as a DPS, but none of them actually pony up and sit down with players to help them explain and understand things, but instead just tell them to "Read a guide", and then behave as if they're being super helpful.

(To be fair, there was one individual who offered to sit down with me, but honestly the last time I did sit down with someone from the forums, it had left me disappointed and sincerely hurt. Kinda why I don't want to do the same with the next person from the forums).

To make a rough example, it is like a teacher telling a student to read a book, instead of explaining the topic that they're confused about, and then behave as if they're being super helpful... Then make a Shocked Pikachu face when they see poor performance because the student still doesn't understand the thing (Though the forumers here react more in a way that makes it look like I ringed their door and kicked them in the gonads)

That at least is the case with me, and I doubt I am the only one who works like that. Excelled at school because I paid attention in class, didn't need to study all that much, unless I wanted to. That is how guides in games should be as well; Extra Credit Studying, not the Essentials.

It also doesn't help that the game has only two real difficulties: Easy, and then Hard. A middleground is pretty much needed in that case, so people can get a proper stepping stone to get on so they can get in to harder things easier (Because Normal difficulty does a really bad job at getting people in to Veteran dungeons). So there shouldn't be much surprise that DPS are lacking in performance in Veteran, when Normal's so easy and does a bad job at preparing folks or giving an idea of the difficulty.

Despite World of Warcraft having flaws in being a boring videogame, at least it had three difficulties: Easy, Medium and Hard (Well, a fourth difficulty that ramps up, but there are main three ones). Steady progression on difficulty, that can get people in to harder stuff over time, or at least giving people a comfortable difficulty to sit on.

It'd be nice to see the same in ESO. Normal, and then Veteran (A bit easier than Veteran dungeons are now), and Undaunted (As dungeons are now, maybe a bit harder)

But hey, I can always play as a tank in veteran dungeons, though I would prefer to kill things than be smacked on

Cadbury wrote: »

Well, this does explain why other MMO communities like FFXIV and WoW make fun of ESO and its playerbase.

First I hear of it. What do they say?

idk · June 2019

It seems OP does not understand the difference between WoW, FF and ESO.

Both WoW and FF are combat on rails. As long as the player understand the basics of their rotation/skill priorities they can do decent damage. It is pathetically boring and simple.

Further, players have little direct influence on their survival. Yes, move out of stupid as is always the case. Maybe a defensive CD that has a long CD itself. But nothing really active.

In ESO it is more challenging for the average player to get the more robust combat system down, weaving LA and such. But even more so the blocking, dodge rolling shielding and self heals require a more active play style which is hard for many to adjust to.

It really is night and day and I have seem a number of players come from that type of antiquated combat design and did fine there but have problems adjusting to ESO.

Edit: BTW, Zos has been working to "raise the floor and lower the ceiling" for the past two years. All they have really done is drive a wedge between the two while raising the ceiling. Zos' poor management of this game is really the source of much of the salt and toxicity in this game.

Chelo · July 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

Disclaimer: I play on Xbox One X and semi-rant coming:

I've played a lot of MMO's and have done a lot of what you would call "hardcore" raiding and stuff. WoW and FFXIV were the main ones. So, the new dungeons came out and personally, (Zaan's stupid poison RNG aside) I think they are REALLY fun. I love the mechanics and think it's a great time...if you do not PUG it. This goes for all DLC dungeons and even some (II) dungeons. Like, I feel that while ESO has created a mentality of "Do whatever you want", it isn't really like that for endgame content. You cannot in fact do whatever you want. It will not work most of the time.

Because of this, PUGS are unbearable. Other MMO's seem to train the player from the start and while when a new WoW dungeon came out, there may of been some difficulties, it could be cleared by PUGS. Here? No way. It is a NIGHTMARE ti pug all the DLc dungeons. Hell, people struggle on Wayrest Sewers 1's last boss. You know.. the easiest dungeon in the game.

That said, I understand that people have to learn, but still, I feel the "average" player in ESO is much worse than the average player in WoW/FFXIV, Rift, etc.

I feel it has something to do with "I can do what I want and be what I want" mentality and also the fact that I do not think ESO teaches you what you need to know before going into endgame. Older dungeons on normal are TOO easy and then a lot of vet stuff is too hard. I wish there was a middle difficultly.

Anywho, love the new dungeons and love the changes, but I just wanted to rant a bit while I'm at work and nothing is happening.

Been saying this for years hahaha XD

Massacre_Wurm · July 2019

Completely agree with "not teaching" part.
Some other MMOs using quest bosses to teach players about dungeon/raid mechanics.

Cathexis · July 2019

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

I mean, people play this like its skyrim online, what more do you expect

even the thing we call 1vX is all about murdering a bunch of no skill players.

Ya that's not 1vX lol, 1vX used to be a lot more competitive among skilled players. The thing we call 1vX now is a shadow of what it was.

beadabow · July 2019

Try doing basic content (for starters) on a no or low CP character (non WW/Vamp) wearing nothing. You can only use your skills. It was hilarious fighting in a main quest sequence, and took me about five minutes to kill the boss, but kill him I did! I'm sure some players are more efficient at killing than I am, but hopefully the community gets my point.

Sylosi · July 2019

If you want skill then you are in the wrong genre.

Even PvP is pretty weak simply because it is not competitive, only MMORPG bads think 1vX'ing players who have not played a tenth of the time, are in zerg builds, are 70 years old, are way more casual, etc is "skilled" (same thing for guilds on Discord, with full cheese comp, fighting unorganised groups, much "skill").

Go play a competitive PvP game if you are actually genuinely bothered about skill.

Insandros · July 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

Prof_Bawbag wrote: »

Luckily for ZoS, the vast majority of players don't really care what you or anyone else thinks of their skill level. Doubt they lose sleep over it either.

I mean, that's fine. I'm not saying people should play how I want them to play. But PUGS are just worse in this game than in others due to people not understanding the game is all.

Agree with you, i think reason is, the gap between DLC and non-DLC are huge, more likely i presume that, DLS are newer suff, while, other might be so much older stuff, mroe forgiving, anyone can tank any non-DLC, any DPS with healing can heal non-DLC, but some stuff in DLC are a bit tougher, i can imagine the sorc DPS tanking CoA1, trying to tank vet BloodRoot Forge and standing on the volcany to take the damage instead of the other and so on. Even since they made some changes on some non-DLC some can be tricky, not to mention, vet Banished Cell 2 Hard Mode, can be a nightmare in pugs.Non-DLC you can do what you want, in DLC you need to pay a bit more attention. I personaly try to avoid 100% pug for DLC, if i'm on healing and grouping a friend as tank, or something like that, i try to avoid, i want at least someone i know in and know how he plays. But yeah some DLC can be tricky, i remmeber a year and a half ago, i would had never thought able to get the skin for Bloodroot and Eperv. Fortress, which we were able to, but doing this with friends i knew. Sad thing in here as many MMO, people are too busy looking at their DPS metter than what is going on on the fights.

But again, everything is possible, i remember once, i joined a vCoS a year ago, i was about to leave, i was healer, and when i get to know that they were 3 friends, first time runing the dungeon and first time in vet as well, and were low CPs, well, they were willing to listen to tips etc and guess what, i took the time to explain a few things on boss fights, and we cleared it out, a dungeon that usualy in pugs, breaks at the boss with lamps turning off.

Keep the faith

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Marabornwingrion wrote: »

Sadly many people came to this game thinking that it's "Skyrim Online" and everyday we can see result of this in dungeon finder.

They should put that it's not such on the box.

MehrunesFlagon · July 2019

Dojohoda wrote: »

There is a wide range of skills and other related variables in this game, that is true. I sympathize with the frustration this might cause when pugging dungeons. But I ask kindly that the experienced players continue to teach even though they feel like punching the monitor instead.

The problem with those groups is that they are like that one class in school that no teacher want to teach.

witchdoctor · July 2019

MehrunesFlagon wrote: »

Dojohoda wrote: »

There is a wide range of skills and other related variables in this game, that is true. I sympathize with the frustration this might cause when pugging dungeons. But I ask kindly that the experienced players continue to teach even though they feel like punching the monitor instead.

The problem with those groups is that they are like that one class in school that no teacher want to teach.

I just had a PUG with a sorc tank with no taunt, and a templar healer with sword and board.

(It was a norm, though, so no biggie).

Derra · July 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

jasonthorpeb14_ESO wrote: »

I simply refuse to pug any dungeon at this point. If you cant pull 20k single target dps, I refuse to group with you ugh. 20k is achievable threw heavy attacks and 1 dot skill alone.

Really? I'm really curious which 1 dot skill that is? Endless hail? Wall of Elements? I'm assuming there's a gear trick to this as well. Honestly curious here.

This is with no monsterset and no ultimate - just wear zaan and use ultimate and you´re easily 30k+
Only used wall of elements as a skill from the backbar to get 2 enchants (with maelstrom).
The rotation goes: wall of elements => swap => 3x lightning heavy => swap => repeat (shame on me i lightattacked before woe a couple of times).

Trinity_Is_My_Name · July 2019

I tend to agree with the OP for most of the PUG groups I have been in. Normal dungeon PUGs are not a big deal but Vet is vastly different.

I run all three roles but usually when I PUG I do so on a Tank or a Healer. Running a Vet PUG on a Tank is usually pretty good but every once in a while I get those over 1,000 CP players that truly have no idea how to play the game and it becomes apparent quickly.

First mob and it takes three or more minutes to burn through them. Like....what? Looking at Combat Metrics I see the Group DPS is 12K. Ahhh....here we go. Another long run. LOL. Light attack light attack, shield! Light attack light attack, Shield! That's what I see in a lot of these cases where the players stand way back and light attack with a staff or a bow.

But I have also had great times PUGGING Vet DLC dungeons. Granted, you will need to dedicate a few hours to a Vet DLC PUG run so don't expect it to be done in 25 minutes. It's nice to have a group of people that want to learn the dungeon or who know it and will share their knowledge during the dungeon run.

Now the worst run I have had in ESO is when over 1,000 CP Players in one of my guilds asked me to Tank for them. It was horrible. I expected them to know how to play and was sorely disappointed. We ran BC1 in Vet. Took over an hour just to get to the final boss. Healer stood in the fire and died constantly. Both DPS were light attacking and also dying from the bosses one shot mechanic and standing still in the fire.

They had no idea to burst the orbs that were floating to the boss. I typed in "Burst the orbs floating to the boss" and kept spamming it since they did nothing.

Every time the Healer died he would write in Group Chat "B.S."

When it was finally over my DK Tank had done 27% of group DPS for the boss fight. I have never run with any of them since.

Oh, and those that like Ice Staffs please don't use them when running dungeons with others unless you are the Tank. Super annoying and when you take the Taunt I will let you keep it.

So play as you want I guess....LOL. One final thought: Never get angry at what happens in a dungeon. Some people have no idea and are really innocent of their lack of mechanics/knowledge/builds. I was that player once.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2019

Azyle1 wrote: »

Disclaimer: I play on Xbox One X and semi-rant coming:

I've played a lot of MMO's and have done a lot of what you would call "hardcore" raiding and stuff. WoW and FFXIV were the main ones. So, the new dungeons came out and personally, (Zaan's stupid poison RNG aside) I think they are REALLY fun. I love the mechanics and think it's a great time...if you do not PUG it. This goes for all DLC dungeons and even some (II) dungeons. Like, I feel that while ESO has created a mentality of "Do whatever you want", it isn't really like that for endgame content. You cannot in fact do whatever you want. It will not work most of the time.

Because of this, PUGS are unbearable. Other MMO's seem to train the player from the start and while when a new WoW dungeon came out, there may of been some difficulties, it could be cleared by PUGS. Here? No way. It is a NIGHTMARE ti pug all the DLc dungeons. Hell, people struggle on Wayrest Sewers 1's last boss. You know.. the easiest dungeon in the game.

That said, I understand that people have to learn, but still, I feel the "average" player in ESO is much worse than the average player in WoW/FFXIV, Rift, etc.

I feel it has something to do with "I can do what I want and be what I want" mentality and also the fact that I do not think ESO teaches you what you need to know before going into endgame. Older dungeons on normal are TOO easy and then a lot of vet stuff is too hard. I wish there was a middle difficultly.

Anywho, love the new dungeons and love the changes, but I just wanted to rant a bit while I'm at work and nothing is happening.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong end. MMO's typically dont attract world class button pressers. This MMO has a significantly higher skill floor that is required than most any other MMO, and thus, it exposes the skill of your average MMO player.

Derra · July 2019

Oreyn_Bearclaw wrote: »

Azyle1 wrote: »

Disclaimer: I play on Xbox One X and semi-rant coming:

I've played a lot of MMO's and have done a lot of what you would call "hardcore" raiding and stuff. WoW and FFXIV were the main ones. So, the new dungeons came out and personally, (Zaan's stupid poison RNG aside) I think they are REALLY fun. I love the mechanics and think it's a great time...if you do not PUG it. This goes for all DLC dungeons and even some (II) dungeons. Like, I feel that while ESO has created a mentality of "Do whatever you want", it isn't really like that for endgame content. You cannot in fact do whatever you want. It will not work most of the time.

Because of this, PUGS are unbearable. Other MMO's seem to train the player from the start and while when a new WoW dungeon came out, there may of been some difficulties, it could be cleared by PUGS. Here? No way. It is a NIGHTMARE ti pug all the DLc dungeons. Hell, people struggle on Wayrest Sewers 1's last boss. You know.. the easiest dungeon in the game.

That said, I understand that people have to learn, but still, I feel the "average" player in ESO is much worse than the average player in WoW/FFXIV, Rift, etc.

I feel it has something to do with "I can do what I want and be what I want" mentality and also the fact that I do not think ESO teaches you what you need to know before going into endgame. Older dungeons on normal are TOO easy and then a lot of vet stuff is too hard. I wish there was a middle difficultly.

Anywho, love the new dungeons and love the changes, but I just wanted to rant a bit while I'm at work and nothing is happening.

I think you are looking at it from the wrong end. MMO's typically dont attract world class button pressers. This MMO has a significantly higher skill floor that is required than most any other MMO, and thus, it exposes the skill of your average MMO player.

I think it´s more along the lines of: What you´re describing is the average player (excluding shooters). MMOs just expose you to them contrary to other games.

msalvia · July 2019

Another part of this not just low-skill players, it's pvpers bringing pvp builds into pve and dragging the team. I get that pvp builds can burst out a lot of damage in 2 seconds, but those same builds do like 5k overall in long fights (i.e. pvp fights).

Problem is, if I bring a pve toon to cyro, I get crushed and t-bagged. If I bring a pvp build to a vet dlc or trial, I get carried (or kicked if I'm that noticeably terrible). There is no dis-incentive for pvpers to do pve with when they can't hang. The opposite is not true. Anyone who has pugged vDSA knows exactly what I mean.

That's a big part of the ESO's pug problem.

p00tx · July 2019

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Knowledge wrote: »

I disagree. Some of the PVPers in this game are extremely skilled. Some of the content 90% of the people in this thread have not and will not complete. In comparison, Antorus raid on mythic in WoW was beaten in several days, Savage and Ultimate Savage in FFXIV were cleared much faster than the content in this game.

This games content and players are superior.

Most of the good pvp players are all old school players where being good actually mattered.

The game went more and more casual friendly as it went on and skill became less important, builds, groups/ classes etc.. all took over.

Newer player didn't really bother to take the time to get good at the game which involved repeatedly trying to 1vX or 2vX and getting bodied until you eventually got the hang of it. Now every is so scared of dying they all run supertanky low dmg builds but run in massive groups and rely on OP crutch sets and mechanics.

Targeting the right person with ults, countering skills, positioning, knowing when the block/ dodge certain skills, knowing the best way to counter a class, being able to roll dodge/ block/ even reflect some ults added some counterplay. Tunning around in a squishy but hard hitting setup that can easily burst people in 2s but can also easily be burst and the only thing stopping that was the players skill.

Now 'skilled' players run around in a 8-16 man group, all run tanky builds and are basically carried by off heals, op sets and healbots (who don#t even manually heal the game basically does it for them) then just group people up and drop ults.

I'd 100% say the average skill level of players in the game has got lower and lower and more old players leave and new players get the game handed to them.

You can tell as you run around pvp, there is a large amount of max cp, high pvp rankplayers who are so clueless and its amazing how they can play the game and that character for so long but still think 35k hp and light attack or heavy lightning staff is a good tactic.

So, I definitely light attack weave all of my abilities in Cyrodil, but many times due to the lag, a super kitey (read: rock/tree humping twatburger) player becomes untargetable and I look like an idiot just spamming light attacks at the air, even when I have them tap-targetted. In that case, you'd better believe I'm going to channel a heavy attack if that's the only dmg this damned game is going to let me get on them. We all do what we have to do with what we're given, and sometimes we're given trash, so it looks like we're outputting trash. Don't be so quick to judge.

DaveMoeDee · July 2019

What is great about this game is that it is still fun as a super casual player. Who cares how skilled the average player is? This game wasn't designed to find the most skilled PvPer, so whatever..

ATomiX96 · July 2019

IDK what you expect if half the playerbase are roleplayers comming from TES: Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim, its still the "The Elder Scrolls" franchise/IP after all.