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In a lot of ways, I think ESO has the worst playerbase skill wise.
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DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
C'mon, they do have a point. I find pvp utterly boring in this game, going around killing random players for ap? Bragging rights? To win a war no one outside of cyrodiil even mentions? Win/lose I don't care.
Meh, means nothing to me, not fun at all.
At the same time I'm sure what I consider fun, going around killing nothing but WB's over and over like a beautiful ballot two step dance would be considered utterly boring, fighting enemies who are predictable and yada yada yada.
If I die to a WB I'm actually upset with myself lol. Crazy right? Dying to another player? Meh, don't care. Die to a npc? Enraged lol. Why's that you say? If I die to a player it could be for any number of reasons, being outplayed being the least likely. Dying to an npc means I missed something or overextended myself and I should have known better and I'm mad at myself for doing so.
Different strokes for different folks and all that jazz.
I agree with you. The game has been designed for all types of people to have fun. If something is not fun for a particular person, then she/he can pretty much ignore it and do something else. In general, the content overall has been designed to be appealing to the largest audience, which is how ESO won the several major #1 MMO awards.0 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »PvE doesn't exist to be fun, it exists to be done
PvP is where the fun is
PvP is for unlocking skill lines.5 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I should correct what I previously said. My problem is not so much that I suck at playing. My gear is crap. I don't like spending the cognitive resources needed to think that through not the time to grind out gear. My play is informed, but lacking practice.0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 4, 2018 3:03AM0 -
DoctorESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.2 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.0 -
TheCyberDruid✭✭✭✭✭Well, if I go by the forums it might be one game that everybody likes to change, but no one knows in which way. Oh yeah, then there are the people that are better than everybody else and need to rub it in. The actual 'skill' of players seems to be: pick the right build and then learn the rotation for it. Not sure if that's what I'd call skill, but hey that's what ESO asks for.Edited by TheCyberDruid on March 4, 2018 8:20AM0 -
Lughlongarm✭✭✭✭✭As a new player Coming from GW2, I can tell you that ESO player base probably got the same skill level compared to other MMOS. What I find interesting about ESO is that the skill ceiling cap is much higher compared to other MMOS. The difference between a very good player and an average player in ESO is huge. That's why you see some players in ESO PVP outnumbering 5-8 players, You rarely see that on other MMOS. GW2 is very much carried by auto targeting/auto skills and passive traits, Wow is carried by auto targeting gear and macros. ESO got line of sight, skill animation cancelling and several additional mechanics you need to master in addition to already complicated boss mechanics and rotations.0
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Jarryzzt✭✭✭✭1. The OP's experience of playing, I quote, "mostly" two other MMOs besides ESO does not exactly match the statement "I've played a lot of MMOs" (emphasis added).
Ten different games is probably "a lot". Twenty - definitely. Two? Really? What is ten then - "a lot to the third power and then some"?
I harp on this because I believe this really undermines the remainder of the post that I more or less am actually in agreement with (see below).
2. It appears a lot of the substance of the OP's complaint goes not to the "average skill of the player base" but to the significant difficulty difference between older dungeons and newer dungeons.
While statistically, yes, some people will struggle even in Wayrest 1, on average one would expect a PUG to clear vet WS1, CoA1, FG1, DS1 and so on without significant difficulties. I have done these, on vet, while parsing 60%-70% of the group's DPS, so these can basically be 3.5-manned/personned/sheeped. Conversely, every time I run a PUG random and roll Scalecaller I know that the group will wipe repeatedly on the first boss(es) - because watching for red and yellow circles is far too demanding a mechanic to respect - and it will be twenty wasted minutes or thereabouts, even in cases where most of the group is in the 500+ CP club.
So yes. I agree with the OP, this is a stupid place for the game to be in. What I would have liked in the ideal is for every dungeon to normalize in difficulty - i.e. either everything like WS1, or everything like Scalecaller, or something in-between. Alternatively, and I also like this idea, split the dungeons into tiers (three, let's say), so that you know you are signing up for easier or harder content when PUGging. Gating certain content (meaning not just a level requirement but an actual "arena" you have to clear solo to get access) is another potential solution, though I personally dislike gating in principle from a business model perspective.
And who knows. Maybe one of the developer teams at ZOS is actually working on the problem and a couple of years from now we'll see something like a One Tamriel++ update that fixes things. I mean, they cannot possibly be so idiotic as to deliberately keep rolling out more difficult DLC dungeons and placing them in the same "basket" as the less difficult "original" dungeons and think this will not cause any issues...
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RebornV3x✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yeah ive noticed it to compared to other MMOs ESO players are really bad. its so hard to find good players in ESO I would say 90% of the people that play ESO have no clue what there doing they struggle to beat base game vet content and will probably never beat most DLC vet content and vet trials.
I meet max CP player 690+ all the time about 25 people in the last month that legitimately don't know they unlock a back bar/ second ability bar at level 15 and that they somehow level all the way to max CP but didnt know( I think there trying to troll me but unless otherwise I think they were serious.)
I shouldn't blame the player base all the way ESO does hides or just doesn't tell you alot of stuff that is essential to play the game. if it wasn't for YouTube almost nobody in this game would know what to do.
After playing games like Tera on PC, Neverwinter and a bit of Skyforge on Xbox One I can jump into almost any pug group in the above games and nearly everyone knows what to do and is decent at there role it a lot easier beating end game stuff. In ESO its a hassle to do endgame stuff and is almost not even fun.Xbox One - NA GT: RebornV3x
I also play on PC from time to time but I just wanna be left alone on there so sorry.0 -
Icy_Waffles✭✭✭✭✭
✭Here's the thing. Solo. Questing. Etc. Sure. Play how u want.
Group? You have a role. Its not about you. Its about the team and filling your role. If you cant cut it bc you are a light armor wearing,points in health, khajit using a resto staff and a 2h queued as a healer because you are a warden... do not do group content.4 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.
A bit off topic but have you never played super smash Bros? That's worth it right there.0 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Disclaimer: I play on Xbox One X and semi-rant coming:
I've played a lot of MMO's and have done a lot of what you would call "hardcore" raiding and stuff. WoW and FFXIV were the main ones. So, the new dungeons came out and personally, (Zaan's stupid poison RNG aside) I think they are REALLY fun. I love the mechanics and think it's a great time...if you do not PUG it. This goes for all DLC dungeons and even some (II) dungeons. Like, I feel that while ESO has created a mentality of "Do whatever you want", it isn't really like that for endgame content. You cannot in fact do whatever you want. It will not work most of the time.
Because of this, PUGS are unbearable. Other MMO's seem to train the player from the start and while when a new WoW dungeon came out, there may of been some difficulties, it could be cleared by PUGS. Here? No way. It is a NIGHTMARE ti pug all the DLc dungeons. Hell, people struggle on Wayrest Sewers 1's last boss. You know.. the easiest dungeon in the game.
That said, I understand that people have to learn, but still, I feel the "average" player in ESO is much worse than the average player in WoW/FFXIV, Rift, etc.
I feel it has something to do with "I can do what I want and be what I want" mentality and also the fact that I do not think ESO teaches you what you need to know before going into endgame. Older dungeons on normal are TOO easy and then a lot of vet stuff is too hard. I wish there was a middle difficultly.
Anywho, love the new dungeons and love the changes, but I just wanted to rant a bit while I'm at work and nothing is happening.
Are you really trying to say WOW was hard core? *** man that game was like candy land, pfft.
A cursory examination of world firsts between the two makes ESO by far the "candy land" of the two. There is nothing exceptionally difficult in ESO, trials take 45min and are beaten almost immediately upon release. PVE Fight mechanics in ESO are a joke for the vast majority of content. Healing in ESO is 99% smart healing which alone makes ESO a "candy land".
PVP is the only area where ESO's fight mechanics are comparable to WoW. Players suggesting wow as the kiddie version in comparison to ESO have clearly never healed or played anything beyond LFR.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..0 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: ».Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.
A bit off topic but have you never played super smash Bros? That's worth it right there.
I don't like 2d fighting games. You guys are not going to change my mind.Edited by Lightspeedflashb14_ESO on March 4, 2018 8:34PM0 -
Bobby_V_Rockit✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.
A bit off topic but have you never played super smash Bros? That's worth it right there.
I don't like 2d fighting games. You guys are not going to change my mind.
Not even the Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of time?! Its basically skyrim lite!1 -
thedude33✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.
A bit off topic but have you never played super smash Bros? That's worth it right there.
I don't like 2d fighting games. You guys are not going to change my mind.
Obviously you haven't tried Hello Kitty, The Revenge.1 -
DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: ».Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »
Yes, surely the President of Nintendo knew nothing about making fun video games, right?
i have owned zero nintendo products in my life. none of the games that have been produced exclusively for nintendo products, have had any interest to me at all and all the ones that i have played, like at my family or friends house have not convinced me that i was wrong with my thoughts on the subject. so his style of "fun" does nothing for me.
You're missing out.
K thanks.
A bit off topic but have you never played super smash Bros? That's worth it right there.
I don't like 2d fighting games. You guys are not going to change my mind.
I tried Super Smash Bros once. Thought it was really corny. Didn't get the appeal.1 -
Knowledge✭✭✭✭✭
✭I disagree. Some of the PVPers in this game are extremely skilled. Some of the content 90% of the people in this thread have not and will not complete. In comparison, Antorus raid on mythic in WoW was beaten in several days, Savage and Ultimate Savage in FFXIV were cleared much faster than the content in this game.
This games content and players are superior.0 -
datgladiatah✭✭✭For a majority of my ESO career I built a stamina templar tank because they gave the impression I could both heal and tank as the class. Found out that wasn't true so I respec'd like 5 times until I ended up being a stamina DPS. Majority of the time I'd just throw spears all day, and for some reason i had a 2h backbar because I mistook a pvp build for a pve one on Deltia's website. When it was pointed out i did ***-all for damage by a pretty knowledgable sorcerer, i looked into everything I was doing wrong. Saw all the pro builds recommended maelstrom bows. Couldn't complete vet maelstrom worth a *** and got bored/frustrated even if i was doing better. I'm still *** at this game and I lack any of the will to deal with learning mechanics when all I'll get is inconsistent PUG groups and RNG *** luck. Even if I could find a group to do content with, any group will be miles past me if they're good enough to do end game *** with.
Basically this game punishes people for trying to do things alone and the community doesn't harbor many reasons to work together when everyone finds their clique. If at all they attempted to make overworld content every once in a while challenging, I feel like I'd have less of a hard time getting anywhere.1 -
Vaoh✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭When you join your local sports club and start roleplaying on a soccer field or stand in the corner of the basketball court, enjoying the scenery rather than being a valueable part of the team, you will soon lose your right to participate.
Believe it or not, joining a team for dungeons, trials or any other group content in ESO is in no way different. If you’re not a team player, you don’t deserve to be a part of the team. That includes the lack of willingness to improve.
Play as you want as long as you don’t show up for group content where you have to work together to accomplish a goal. There’s no room for an egoistic approach in that.
^^^^^^ 100% agree. This has always been the way I thought of this sort of stuff.
Play as you want, sure. I don’t want to tell anyone how to play. ESO has so much to it that you can truly play how you want.
However, players need to respect the content they can participate in and not go out of their way to hurt another’s experience. This means that as a player running a purposely ineffective/horrible RP build (which is fine), there is no acceptable reason to try to run Vet Cradle of Shadows hoping for a carry.
Why join a group which you know for a fact is going to be drastically set back because of you? I’ve always found it selfish. Some people will play with attitude and then tell their team they have to cope because the “play how you want to play” mantra..... despite queuing for Veteran Difficulty content.
If you group for Vet dungeons and then do basically *nothing*..... well not much should have to be said. Use common sense and figure out the tiny fraction of content you should avoid unless running an effective build. If you play team-based content you have to be a team player. Absolutely no way to justify being selfish is team-based content.1 -
Araxyte✭✭✭✭Just look at the number of complaints about VMA, the only veteran solo content in the game. It was something like 5% of ESO with the DLC could do it? This gives a good indication on the player-base skill level as it is solo content. No team help, no carry, nothing. The amount of complaining on the forums about the difficulty of it is insane!| All classes | PC EU |2 -
Azyle1✭✭✭✭✭1. The OP's experience of playing, I quote, "mostly" two other MMOs besides ESO does not exactly match the statement "I've played a lot of MMOs" (emphasis added).
Ten different games is probably "a lot". Twenty - definitely. Two? Really? What is ten then - "a lot to the third power and then some"?
I harp on this because I believe this really undermines the remainder of the post that I more or less am actually in agreement with (see below).
2. It appears a lot of the substance of the OP's complaint goes not to the "average skill of the player base" but to the significant difficulty difference between older dungeons and newer dungeons.
While statistically, yes, some people will struggle even in Wayrest 1, on average one would expect a PUG to clear vet WS1, CoA1, FG1, DS1 and so on without significant difficulties. I have done these, on vet, while parsing 60%-70% of the group's DPS, so these can basically be 3.5-manned/personned/sheeped. Conversely, every time I run a PUG random and roll Scalecaller I know that the group will wipe repeatedly on the first boss(es) - because watching for red and yellow circles is far too demanding a mechanic to respect - and it will be twenty wasted minutes or thereabouts, even in cases where most of the group is in the 500+ CP club.
So yes. I agree with the OP, this is a stupid place for the game to be in. What I would have liked in the ideal is for every dungeon to normalize in difficulty - i.e. either everything like WS1, or everything like Scalecaller, or something in-between. Alternatively, and I also like this idea, split the dungeons into tiers (three, let's say), so that you know you are signing up for easier or harder content when PUGging. Gating certain content (meaning not just a level requirement but an actual "arena" you have to clear solo to get access) is another potential solution, though I personally dislike gating in principle from a business model perspective.
And who knows. Maybe one of the developer teams at ZOS is actually working on the problem and a couple of years from now we'll see something like a One Tamriel++ update that fixes things. I mean, they cannot possibly be so idiotic as to deliberately keep rolling out more difficult DLC dungeons and placing them in the same "basket" as the less difficult "original" dungeons and think this will not cause any issues...
Quite frankly I have played a lot of MMO's, with WoW and FFXIV being the two that most people know. I've played RIFT, DCUO, BDO, Tera, WoW, FFXIV, FF11, UO (Does that count?), ESO, Perfect World, Silk Road and a few more.0 -
DGVish✭✭Not everyone wants to play the meta game. Not everyone is interested in end game content because there is plenty of other things they can do that they find enjoyable.
The biggest thing is ESO doesn't want to be that. They aren't in the cutting edge, hardcore market for e-sports and the like. You can play it like that, but in my view you will likely not enjoy the game like a casual player or even a dedicated one. The top tier content is not ridiculously hard and the competition at those levels is really low. You don't have 250 guilds, realistically, competing for progression like WoW does. Nor do you have only one source of end game content like BDO does. It all equates to a model that doesn't NEED a hardcore environment to thrive. The hardcore players are the minority and the fact that only a small percentage of the community completes certain difficult content doesn't say much about a game that is more about the casual experience. You should be happy they offer harder content most of it's players ignore.
ESO is it's own entity and doesn't try to be like other MMOs.
I actually don't think that the skill level is much of an issue. I play my games at a high level, but most games require you to or at least be dedicated. I get 95%+ parses in my Mythic guild, but that's the sort of environment I come to ESO to escape from. I get tired of demands and time constraints. I could certainly be a top tier/hardcore player in this game if I chose to, but I simply don't want to. The game isn't competitive enough for it to bother me that I'm not, and that's exactly why I enjoy ESO. IF that means I end up being grouped with a few noobs a long the way, so be it, it doesn't bother me. I would add this game is much more immersive and robust than WoW. It's not about cranking out top DPS numbers to me and it never will be.
There's also more than a few skilled PvPers in this game running a variety of classes and builds. The thing I enjoy about this game's PvP is it doesn't revolve solely around the meta. Those who do play the meta game are very successful, but you don't HAVE to run the FOTM or OP build to be successful. PvP is where the real skill lies because anyone can avoid fire, copy a build and learn the rotation.
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Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭griffkhalifa wrote: »Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I haven't had any trouble completing vet dungeons with PUGs since I came back to the game about a month ago.
Anyway, maybe you should find a guild to run dungeons with instead of PUGs.
Let me guess... you are a dps that can pull 50k+ right, i challenge you to queue for veteran moon hunter keep ... as tank...2 -
Casul✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭griffkhalifa wrote: »Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I haven't had any trouble completing vet dungeons with PUGs since I came back to the game about a month ago.
Anyway, maybe you should find a guild to run dungeons with instead of PUGs.
Let me guess... you are a dps that can pull 50k+ right, i challenge you to queue for veteran moon hunter keep ... as tank...
Necro powers activate!PvP needs more love.3 -
Mitaka211✭✭✭✭Well i don't think it's the players faults. Eso has a big learning curve and without all the guides i don't think there will be a lot of "good" players to begin with. It's kinda easy to copy paste a meta build without thinking and start deluding yourself you are good.
Hey, there are a lot of things i may fail at , and i honestly do consider myself mediocre at best . I just find mixing and matching sets fun even if they are not considered good meta wise. For example i use briarheart over hundings just because i think the effect looks cool . But let's be real if i couldn't go in a eso wiki or whatever and check out every single set and how to get it , i don't think i could honestly manage . Like i did not even know what monster sets were for the longest time lol.
For pvp it's a good thing that there are different levels of players skill wise. You can clearly see the god like ones that pretty much solo the game for their team, and they are not common to see. I played other games which were easier to learn and let me tell you , full hordes of players who know everything about the game is no fun for anyone, it creates a community of try hard elitists.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭griffkhalifa wrote: »Maybe I've just been getting lucky, but I haven't had any trouble completing vet dungeons with PUGs since I came back to the game about a month ago.
Anyway, maybe you should find a guild to run dungeons with instead of PUGs.
Let me guess... you are a dps that can pull 50k+ right, i challenge you to queue for veteran moon hunter keep ... as tank...
In ESO player's defense - that dungeon is pretty stupid. There are probably more one shots and DPS races in that dungeon then probably all of WoW's dungeons combined. Even the random trash can instantly kill you in that place - and there is hardly any warning either. Just a little hop...and then you're dead. So I never hold it against my group if we die in that hell hole.
Everyone is always an expert when they're on the forum anyway. People are too proud to admit when something is hard. But I pug all the time and I see even very skilled players die on this game routinely. It happens to everyone - even the forum experts trust me. I remember when they first released Falkreath Hold and even the developers were getting owned by the last boss. And they made the game. I've also seen many of the same posters on this forum who love to talk about how skilled they are and how unskilled everyone else is (I'm not going to name names so don't ask) struggle in these dungeons just like pugs often do.Edited by Jeremy on June 27, 2019 12:30PM1 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭Prof_Bawbag wrote: »Luckily for ZoS, the vast majority of players don't really care what you or anyone else thinks of their skill level. Doubt they lose sleep over it either.
True
I am a fan of "do what you want". But when people queue for a PUG, then at least they should try to fill a role. And avoid vet Dungeons ofc. 0 -
BXR_Lonestar✭✭✭✭✭
✭I was first expecting this post to be some elitist post, but in an odd way, you have made a point that my group has pointed out all the time while running vet dungeons. The normal content does an absolutely TERRIBLE job of training you and preparing you for identifying and negotiating the mechanics on vet and hard modes. I cannot tell you how many times we've completed content on normal hoping to learn something about the vet content, only to read up on the vet content only to see some permutation of the phrase "vet difficulty is nothing like normal difficulty." Well if that is true, then they've just robbed players of the opportunity to learn.
There does need to be a middle ground when it comes to dungeons. Either normal dungeons need to mirror veteran dungeon mechanics, and punish you for not negotiating the mechanics as intended (but not as harshly as on vet), or the veteran difficulty needs to be tampered down somewhat if the game is not going to do a better job of preparing you for veteran runs.
I can tell you now that one of the big problems between normal and vet is the ability to just absolutely bypass mechanics by having high DPS. Normal Cloudrest? Don't bother going into the shadow realm for the first three bosses if you have enough DPS (and even most pug groups will). Ditto the final boss on Sunspire - no need to go into the gateways to take down the dudes in those gateways.
In a lot of ways, the whole "Must parse at 50k+ DPS" attitude has been driven by players who desire to completely bypass mechanics in general by being able to out-DPS the encounter, and many times, I find that these are also players who struggle with negotiating mechanics (Because they've never had to!).
I also wish that there was some kind of middle ground here - either make the normal content better mirror the veteran content so that people are forced to learn mechanics, or make the top end stuff a little easier if they're not going to make people learn mechanics. I'd be fine with either.1
