No Event Tickets for honest work?

logarifmik · July 2019

albesca wrote: »

Completionists cannot afford to stick to a coherent narrative for their characters: as far as crime is concerned, I think that the Thieves' Guild's ethic (the one depicted in game, at least) isn't compatible with the Dark Brotherhood's one, so you should really choose only one of the two (my characters tends to gravitate toward thieves more than murderers).

Agreed. They cannot, because options are quite limited.

albesca wrote: »

Besides, giving a legal aligned quest line (I don't know, siding with the Iron Wheel in Hew's Bane or something like that, though to be honest they're mercenaries and not that better than the guild) would require another set of achievements mutually exclusive with the ones we have now, and that would make completionists' lives even harder

It can be done in several not so obvious ways. I'll quote an example, how it could be in my opinion, from the other thread.

logarifmik wrote: »

I speak about lack of the alternative content for lawful characters. For now you either ignore DB and TG or dive into it, starting a life of crime, as they said.

Lets take for example DB questline. First you meet some weird girl, who supply you with rumor about DB in Gold Coast region. To draw their attention you must kill someone in Anvil. Just for fun, without a good enough reason. After this cold blooded crime Speaker Terenus want to have a word with you and so on, the questline starts.

But how about an alternative way to proceed with the situation taking place on Gold Coast? The driving conflict of the questline is confrontation of radical Akatosh followings and Dark Brotherhood, which is a result of Primate Artorius political ambitions. What about putting it this way? Let us assume, that there is another strong political leader on the Gold Coast. We even have two of them, Governor Fortunata ap Dugal and Count Carolus Aquilarios. Each of them not very fond of growing influence of the local church, I presume? So, as alternative Vestige could serve one of them, instead of becoming a bloody assassin in the local sect. The alternative questline could be done even more interesting with all these political games going on. At least, that's how I see it.

Regarding skill lines and achievements, I'm sure there is some way to put it right as MMO mechanics demand. That is not the main problem, anyway. Story is what makes any role-playing game interesting.

Also, DB and TG passives tree is quite... unnecessary and easily avoidable if you're not into crime.

SoLooney · July 2019

Then you can just buy tickets like all the non conformists

barney2525 · July 2019

albesca wrote: »

logarifmik wrote: »

Anyway, it's not about my opinion on the matter, right? It's about hero/villain dichotomy in the game. One day you're saving the Nirn for... What? For killing some innocent people here and there? Such approach in constructing narrative doesn't seem right. Completionist Vestige seems to have a bipolar disorder or something, or there is a literary hole instead of character.

Completionists cannot afford to stick to a coherent narrative for their characters: as far as crime is concerned, I think that the Thieves' Guild's ethic (the one depicted in game, at least) isn't compatible with the Dark Brotherhood's one, so you should really choose only one of the two (my characters tends to gravitate toward thieves more than murderers).

Besides, giving a legal aligned quest line (I don't know, siding with the Iron Wheel in Hew's Bane or something like that, though to be honest they're mercenaries and not that better than the guild) would require another set of achievements mutually exclusive with the ones we have now, and that would make completionists' lives even harder

Disagree. You need to develop your thieving skills if you are going to be a great assassin.

I'm just curious as to how many of the players complaining about killing use the basic concept of Farming to gain levels? Killing is killing. DB makes the killing personal so you feel it. When you don't feel it, it's just another step in leveling up and reaching your goals.

But it's all still killing.

redgreensunset · July 2019

logarifmik wrote: »

redgreensunset wrote: »

I was talking about deliberatrly killing someone purportedly "for a greater purpose" with no alternative presented even though my uncreative ass could think of one in less than 5 sec. Or killing a dude who's ust trying to get the love of his life back, a woman who loved him until some forsaken ritual brain washed her. Or the wide range of other amoral choices this game constant forced on you, but it's okay because people of Proper Moral Authority says it is okay.

My apologies, now I get it. What you are talking about is a bad writing, I don't like it either.

redgreensunset wrote: »

And then there are all those beings who are just chilling in their homes until we arrive and kill them off and steal their stuff. Sometimes on other people's orders, sometimes just because we feel like it. A point btw, that you keep dodging in answering.
How is murdering your way through a dungeon or delve any different? Just because the game doesn't call it murder or theft.

It really seems your objection is solely to whether or not some arbitarry authority have okay'ed your mayhem and larceny, not whether r or not your actions are actually good.

Name at least one dungeon, where your enemies are not brigands or monsters, please.

About murdering and robbing civilians, especially when it's indirectly forced, like it was with farming motif pages in Vivec, I don't approve such approach either. I see it as a bad and lazy gameplay development decision.

I guess I see, what attitude you're talking about. The answer lays somewhere in the field of morality and philosophy. Personally, I think, that sometimes killing, or murdering if you like, is justified. Though, it doesn't mean, that I deliberately seek a reason or someone's approval to do so, no. Circumstances is the only thing, that can give one the right.

Anyway, it's not about my opinion on the matter, right? It's about hero/villain dichotomy in the game. One day you're saving the Nirn for... What? For killing some innocent people here and there? Such approach in constructing narrative doesn't seem right. Completionist Vestige seems to have a bipolar disorder or something, or there is a literary hole instead of character.

Except the label of monster is somewhat arbitrary in this game. Like goblins are monsters right? Only there is this quest in Summerset where you're going into a delve inhabited by goblins, happily murdering away the little monsters as you go on your merry way. Except during a quest in there you discover that ooops, those monsters there, the reason they are so hostile is that though once upon a time they (the goblins) and the surrounding elf population were living in peace with each other and had a mutually beneficial relationship. Except those snooty elves decided one day, "Hey we want the pass the goblins live in", and invaded.
Now for some damn obvious reasons the goblins didn't take too kindly to that and grew hostile. Not just towards the elves, but to everyone coming into their territory. But it is okay to murder the goblins in that delve because hey, they're labeled monsters. Or just goblins in general, whose stories we never get to hear.
Same with brigands. We see plenty of examples of people who end up being brigands through unfortunate circumstances, often inflicted on them by an uncaring surrounding society. But hey it's fine to murder those other brigands because eh, they're all bad guys.

My point is, morality in this game is completely arbitrary more or less from the word go. It all depends on who and what the game designates as bad guys, or good guys.

And don't even get me started on the Daedric Princes. Because that's the deepest moral mire in this game and who's evil and who is "good" is so arbitrary. Yet we're constantly forced to work for, or with, the "good" ones.

Yes I guess it's about moral and philosophy. It's about the fact that every hero is the villain in someone's story, and every villain is the hero in someone else's and not even necessarily their own.
I suppose it also depends on your character's motivation for doing things in the game. Take my Khajit assassin and thief. She isn't opposing Molag Bal because he's trying to take over Nirn, though she do not particularly desire to live under his rule so there is a bit of motivation there. Mostly she does so because she wants her soul back, one does not steal from her.
She gets involved in a lot of other stuff because she lives by the maxim, "curiosity may have killed the cat, but satisfaction brought it back". So she pokes her whiskers a lot of places where perhaps they are unwelcome and then she has to deal with the fallout. Not to mention she likes helping people she likes and she's taken a liking to Lyris and Sai, though she wishes something bad would happen to Tharn and she hopes he gets eaten by a dragon.
As for killing and stealing? She kills all the time, though she has her own arbitrary reasons for who she'll kill and why, they are arbitrary. Same goes for theft. She's an unlikely hero, a hero in spite of everything and herself. Others may see her as such, but she certainly doesn't herself.
Of course, that's just her.And if you want to play a true paragon then there are parts of this story you can't do.

But all morality aside, that's true about other things for other reasons. Like I never do pvp, I avoid it like the plague. Which means that come the pvp event - should it ever return - I'll have no option but to sit it out and not get whatever rewards you get for that event. I sure as hell aren't going to complain that there aren't a pve version of it since it is, you know, a pvp event?

PS. That's not how bipolar works. You might be thinking of DID (Dissociative Identity Disorder), but even then it would be somewhat off. But that's neither here nor there in the context of this discussion.

Bouldercleave · July 2019

When all the debate about right and wrong, good and evil is done there is only one truth remaining:

From the first second you log in, you are nothing more than a mercenary. You do tasks that other people don't want to or can't do for themselves - for gold, stuff, and fame.

The only morality that holds true in Tamriel is the one you impose upon yourself.

AnnieK · July 2019

Yep - Absolute worst event ever...worst part of the game is this garbage. Hate it!

albesca · July 2019

barney2525 wrote: »

Disagree. You need to develop your thieving skills if you are going to be a great assassin.

I agree, but I think that pure thieving skills should belong to the legerdemain skill line (thieves' guild ones should be limited to those enhancing the interactions with the fences and the footpad one, in my opinion, as they're strictly benefits of being part of the guild).
However, I was referring to joining both guilds storywise, not to get the skills.

I'm just curious as to how many of the players complaining about killing use the basic concept of Farming to gain levels? Killing is killing. DB makes the killing personal so you feel it. When you don't feel it, it's just another step in leveling up and reaching your goals.

But it's all still killing.

That's something I wonder about myself: I have the Serial killer achievement on my main (kill fifty civilians, I'm working on Mass Murderer), but looking at the Slayer achievements' progression bars he also have killed various wildlife and so called monsters (and humanoids, because I guess that's more detached than calling them people) in the hundreds, so it's not like he's a saint, outside of DB related activities

logarifmik wrote: »

It can be done in several not so obvious ways. I'll quote an example, how it could be in my opinion, from the other thread.

logarifmik wrote: »

I speak about lack of the alternative content for lawful characters. For now you either ignore DB and TG or dive into it, starting a life of crime, as they said.

Lets take for example DB questline. First you meet some weird girl, who supply you with rumor about DB in Gold Coast region. To draw their attention you must kill someone in Anvil. Just for fun, without a good enough reason. After this cold blooded crime Speaker Terenus want to have a word with you and so on, the questline starts.

But how about an alternative way to proceed with the situation taking place on Gold Coast? The driving conflict of the questline is confrontation of radical Akatosh followings and Dark Brotherhood, which is a result of Primate Artorius political ambitions. What about putting it this way? Let us assume, that there is another strong political leader on the Gold Coast. We even have two of them, Governor Fortunata ap Dugal and Count Carolus Aquilarios. Each of them not very fond of growing influence of the local church, I presume? So, as alternative Vestige could serve one of them, instead of becoming a bloody assassin in the local sect. The alternative questline could be done even more interesting with all these political games going on. At least, that's how I see it.

Regarding skill lines and achievements, I'm sure there is some way to put it right as MMO mechanics demand. That is not the main problem, anyway. Story is what makes any role-playing game interesting.

That's interesting, but still many of the achievements we have now are tied to being part of the Dark Brotherhood (be them about fulfilling contracts, sacraments or simply killing people with the Blade of Woe), so an option to not join the Brotherhood would make them unobtainable, which was my point about completionists

Hallothiel · July 2019

Are there any of these sword & magic games out there that give you the choice NOT to kill things at all to progress?

I can’t think of one, either mmo or single player.

It’s kinda the norm. Kill things, get xp.

logarifmik · July 2019

albesca wrote: »

That's interesting, but still many of the achievements we have now are tied to being part of the Dark Brotherhood (be them about fulfilling contracts, sacraments or simply killing people with the Blade of Woe), so an option to not join the Brotherhood would make them unobtainable, which was my point about completionists

Achievements can be implemented like that, *archivement from the DB*/*achivement from the alternative questline*. This problem is solvable, one way or another. Of course, if one already started DB questline on the character, he can't start alternative questline, other character is needed. But undoubtedly it'll never happen, because of the approach ZOS choosed after 1T.

Jaraal · July 2019

And yet, the quests in both the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood are mostly about bringing evil characters to justice, reuniting families, restoring lost love, helping people find their purpose in life, using teamwork to accomplish goals, etc.

It's not like any of those things are useful or have correlations in real life....