Katahdin wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think this might make shadow guilds a thing of the past if it works the way I think it will.

There is no reliable way to know who the second, third, fourth etc bidder is for any given kiosk.

So a trader is bid upon by multiple guilds, and the top bidder is a ghost guild. Im assuming the kiosk goes to the next highest bidder if the top guild disbands.

H ow is that shadow guild going to sell a kiosk if they have no idea who is second and the second place bidder cant tell for sure that he is next in line

Seriously who would risk it?

Just offer spot in zone... Or through connections or checking hubs who hasn't got a trader. That's how backup works on pc EU as well. They always find someone to buy the backup spot.

Did you actually read what I wrote?

They can't sell it if it goes to the next highest bidder when they disband. They have no idea who is second in line or how many other bidders there may be.

Do we wanna talk again bout reading? Dragon racer said everything tho. Troll guilds, ghost guilds and so on have better chances on poking complete hubs. Just go around and bid 5mio every spot j4f and see which trader u get. And this spot u can resell for 8mio then.

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I don't see why big trader guilds would bid on bad locations. Its illogical to do that. The top locations are highly competitive and will always be highly competitive. I fail to see how this could be a win for larger guilds

with 10 bidding options, i am surely able to bid 4 mio on windhelm, 2.5mio on skywatch if needed 2mio on a single trader as 10th bid.

Why? More locations doesn't mean better locations. I don't want a trader in a location that 2% of the ESO population visits. Its a waste of time and money

But u can put up more traders in the visited hubs as well

You seriously underestimate how much it costs to put up a trader in Mournhold.

cheifsoap wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I don't see why big trader guilds would bid on bad locations. Its illogical to do that. The top locations are highly competitive and will always be highly competitive. I fail to see how this could be a win for larger guilds

with 10 bidding options, i am surely able to bid 4 mio on windhelm, 2.5mio on skywatch if needed 2mio on a single trader as 10th bid.

Why? More locations doesn't mean better locations. I don't want a trader in a location that 2% of the ESO population visits. Its a waste of time and money

But u can put up more traders in the visited hubs as well

You seriously underestimate how much it costs to put up a trader in Mournhold.

Tell me more about bidding stuff, just running a trade guild in Craglorn frontrow PC EU and in rawl since 3-4 years. crappy noobs like me know nothing bout trading and bidding habits ✌️

cheifsoap wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

cheifsoap wrote: »

I don't see why big trader guilds would bid on bad locations. Its illogical to do that. The top locations are highly competitive and will always be highly competitive. I fail to see how this could be a win for larger guilds

with 10 bidding options, i am surely able to bid 4 mio on windhelm, 2.5mio on skywatch if needed 2mio on a single trader as 10th bid.

Why? More locations doesn't mean better locations. I don't want a trader in a location that 2% of the ESO population visits. Its a waste of time and money

But u can put up more traders in the visited hubs as well

You seriously underestimate how much it costs to put up a trader in Mournhold.

I don't underestimate it; I know what it takes to hold Mournhold... Today.

That said... god only knows what it's going to take in the future. Bids are going to be in the stratosphere.

So, going to put on my tinfoil hat and guess that a week from now, ZoS says, "We've listened to our player base and reduced the number of bids from 10 to 3." This will be accompanied by jubilant cries of "they listened, yay!" ... but no-fee trade guilds will still take a head-shot, and the gold sink will have been implemented to cheers all around.

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

First time in history I'd prefer ah too...

This whole situation is proof that does listen is trying to come up with solutions that help everybody.

1. this helps big guilds always get a big spot WITHOUT having to pay shady ghost guilds...just bid on 10 elite spots with elite money. (combined with not paying ghost guilds at all, this would quickly kill ghost guilds because they run out of money...e.g. = 400 active members can out pay 50 deviants.)
2. this helps small guilds get a trader somewhere because instead of hitting a 200k bid this week and losing a 500k bid next week, they can spread out their bids and get lucky somewhere...also, this will result in more information! by finding the price points of specific spots over time.
3. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY = you all, most of you, shouted down any *** alternative to your precious guild trader system so ZOS intelligently did the best they could to help everybody = "EXPANDED IT."

its an elegant solution.

SirLeeMinion wrote: »

So, going to put on my tinfoil hat and guess that a week from now, ZoS says, "We've listened to our player base and reduced the number of bids from 10 to 3." This will be accompanied by jubilant cries of "they listened, yay!" ... but no-fee trade guilds will still take a head-shot, and the gold sink will have been implemented to cheers all around.

The changes advanced by ZoS have certainly caused a lot of outrage (if that's the right word) Maybe no-one at ZoS could have predicted that disadvantaging the medium and smaller guilds would be...less than well received. Didn't take the player base to latch on though. Maybe it was impossible for ZoS to predict the reaction. Or something.

Speaking of problems and reactions, What was that old geezer's name? Heggygel or something?

sirinsidiator wrote: »

So please ZOS, rethink this change before you make one of the worst systems in your game even worse and drive off some of the most dedicated members of your community. Try to think about what the people leading those guilds have to go through each and every week and change the system so it becomes awesome and rewarding for them.

Here's the thing.

I've long argued that the Trader System in ESO is the very worst "sub system" of any MMORPG I have ever played.

It fails to make selling easy.
It fails - on an epic scale - to make buying easy.
Ergo, as a "trade system" it fails completely.

If this were the "real world" they claim they are trying to emulate the current system would have died a death two weeks after it was launched and people who actually understand how trade works would have come up with something 100 times better.

I genuinely thought it would be impossible for any Game Company to make a system worse than ESO's Trade System.
And just to prove I have far too much faith in humanity's ingenuity ZOS go and prove they can in fact make something worse.


This is how it would work in the real world.
The "popular" Stalls would be constantly full, the really unpopular ones would NEVER be bid on.
Instead some entrepreneur would set up a few more stalls alongside, or very near to, the existing popular trade stalls.

Why would any sensible businessman set up a Trade Outlet away from where all the Customers already are?
They wouldn't - it is that simple.

The idea that ESO's Trade System somehow replicates how real world trade happened in technologically similar points in human history shows only one thing: the people making that argument have absolutely NO IDEA at all how historical trade took place.

So, from someone with an M.A. Hons in History, here's a really basic primer in pre-industrial age Trade and Commerce:
Sell Your Stuff Where The Customer Is

That's it!

Do away with those out of the way Trade Stalls, in reality they simply wouldn't exist.


All The Best

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

generalmyrick wrote: »

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

First time in history I'd prefer ah too...

This whole situation is proof that does listen is trying to come up with solutions that help everybody.

1. this helps big guilds always get a big spot WITHOUT having to pay shady ghost guilds...just bid on 10 elite spots with elite money. (combined with not paying ghost guilds at all, this would quickly kill ghost guilds because they run out of money...e.g. = 400 active members can out pay 50 deviants.)
2. this helps small guilds get a trader somewhere because instead of hitting a 200k bid this week and losing a 500k bid next week, they can spread out their bids and get lucky somewhere...also, this will result in more information! by finding the price points of specific spots over time.
3. AND MOST IMPORTANTLY = you all, most of you, shouted down any *** alternative to your precious guild trader system so ZOS intelligently did the best they could to help everybody = "EXPANDED IT."

its an elegant solution.

Zos never made any alternative or change on that system, do how are we supposed to shout it down. Also a lot of those people here collected a lot of constrictive thoughts on adjustments in the past.

everytime the auction house was raised, the trolls, shouter downers :-), raced to the beat horse meme, stop pretending like it didn't happen. :-)

Katahdin wrote: »

DragonRacer wrote: »

Katahdin wrote: »

I think this might make shadow guilds a thing of the past if it works the way I think it will.

There is no reliable way to know who the second, third, fourth etc bidder is for any given kiosk.

So a trader is bid upon by multiple guilds, and the top bidder is a ghost guild. Im assuming the kiosk goes to the next highest bidder if the top guild disbands.

How is that shadow guild going to sell a kiosk if they have no idea who is second and the second place bidder cant tell for sure that he is next in line

Seriously who would risk it?

ZOS says after the traders are won, the losing amounts are refunded. So, still operating how it currently does, just with more potential backup locations.

Ghost selling will absolutely, 100% still be a thing for the servers who experience it en masse. Because once the ghost wins whichever of the 10-trader roulette they put bids on, that kiosk is theirs. Just like it is now. And within an hour or so after the dust settles from flip, they can still sell it to another guild because all the losers have already been refunded their money. Just like it works now.

Ok well then that obviously needs to be changed. If a guild disbands, the second bidder should be given the first chance to buyfor 24 hours if they have not gotten a kiosk, then third and so on. If there are no bidders left then it becomes a dead kiosk that week.

Honestly, ZOS seriously just needs to either a) not allow a guild to disband if it holds a kiosk or b) not allow a kiosk to be bought if a guild holding it disbands - it just sits empty for the week.

Either solution stops ghosts guilds as "back up" guilds and stops ghost guilds as "sell to a desperate guild for profit" revenue stream. Because in either scenario, no lost bid money is recouped for the ghost's owner. The entire shadow thing would trickle away fairly quickly.

Period. Done. End of story. No convoluted mess of 10 back up trader location bidding, etc. Give us one primary bid and maybe 1-2 back-up bids to be generous, and cease all ghost guild activity with one of the two solutions I pointed out.

It really doesn't have to be this hard and asinine. It really doesn't.

observertim wrote: »

(reposted from my Update 23 announcement forum comment)
• Guild Shops where several guilds can buy a limited amount of trader space (10-15 slots/member) in a single zone for a fixed fee. Possibly even limit the number that can buy in a zone (say 10 or 20), though that would just end up being a lesser version of the current problem; though the smaller guilds would at least get a chance that way.

I could imagine something similar to Tim's suggestion, with a little twist like:
Guilds could choose to hire one particular trader for the upcoming week and subscribe for one out of its several differently sized slot-packs for fixed subscription fee based on the total sales made during the last 2-4 weeks on that particular spot.

In practice this would look like this:
Mournhold trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 1,5M; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 3M; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 9M
Riften trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 250K; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 500K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 1,5M
Out of Way Bang in the Middle of Nowhere trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 10k; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 20K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 30K


This would maintain the current gold sink and satisfy ZOS and also would maintain the current system of lower subscription prices for low traffic areas and higher subscription prices for high traffic areas with a promise of higher income in return so in other words preserving competitive trading.
Also this could provide a wide enough range of semi-predictable fees week after week for small, mid and even large guilds and still would give an affordable opportunity for non-trading guilds to set up their adjustable sized shops all around Tamriel based on the extent of their wallet while eliminating the problem of ghost/revenge/rage guilds...
And with the guaranteed traders for all i almost forgot the welcoming sight of stress-free Sunday nights for us guild leaders and for our officers, Amen!

Medhir wrote: »

observertim wrote: »

(reposted from my Update 23 announcement forum comment)
• Guild Shops where several guilds can buy a limited amount of trader space (10-15 slots/member) in a single zone for a fixed fee. Possibly even limit the number that can buy in a zone (say 10 or 20), though that would just end up being a lesser version of the current problem; though the smaller guilds would at least get a chance that way.

I could imagine something similar to Tim's suggestion, with a little twist like:
Guilds could choose to hire one particular trader for the upcoming week and subscribe for one out of its several differently sized slot-packs for fixed subscription fee based on the total sales made during the last 2-4 weeks on that particular spot.

In practice this would look like this:
Mournhold trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 1,5M; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 3M; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 9M
Riften trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 250K; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 500K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 1,5M
Out of Way Bang in the Middle of Nowhere trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 10k; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 20K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 30K


This would maintain the current gold sink and satisfy ZOS and also would maintain the current system of lower subscription prices for low traffic areas and higher subscription prices for high traffic areas with a promise of higher income in return so in other words preserving competitive trading.
Also this could provide a wide enough range of semi-predictable fees week after week for small, mid and even large guilds and still would give an affordable opportunity for non-trading guilds to set up their adjustable sized shops all around Tamriel based on the extent of their wallet while eliminating the problem of ghost/revenge/rage guilds...
And with the guaranteed traders for all i almost forgot the welcoming sight of stress-free Sunday nights for us guild leaders and for our officers, Amen!

Making a system that is already so complex that it neither facilitates selling, nor buying more complex is NOT the solution here.

Basic rule of almost everything K.I.S.S

All The Best

Medhir wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Medhir wrote: »

observertim wrote: »

(reposted from my Update 23 announcement forum comment)
• Guild Shops where several guilds can buy a limited amount of trader space (10-15 slots/member) in a single zone for a fixed fee. Possibly even limit the number that can buy in a zone (say 10 or 20), though that would just end up being a lesser version of the current problem; though the smaller guilds would at least get a chance that way.

I could imagine something similar to Tim's suggestion, with a little twist like:
Guilds could choose to hire one particular trader for the upcoming week and subscribe for one out of its several differently sized slot-packs for fixed subscription fee based on the total sales made during the last 2-4 weeks on that particular spot.

In practice this would look like this:
Mournhold trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 1,5M; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 3M; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 9M
Riften trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 250K; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 500K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 1,5M
Out of Way Bang in the Middle of Nowhere trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 10k; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 20K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 30K


This would maintain the current gold sink and satisfy ZOS and also would maintain the current system of lower subscription prices for low traffic areas and higher subscription prices for high traffic areas with a promise of higher income in return so in other words preserving competitive trading.
Also this could provide a wide enough range of semi-predictable fees week after week for small, mid and even large guilds and still would give an affordable opportunity for non-trading guilds to set up their adjustable sized shops all around Tamriel based on the extent of their wallet while eliminating the problem of ghost/revenge/rage guilds...
And with the guaranteed traders for all i almost forgot the welcoming sight of stress-free Sunday nights for us guild leaders and for our officers, Amen!

Making a system that is already so complex that it neither facilitates selling, nor buying more complex is NOT the solution here.

Basic rule of almost everything K.I.S.S

All The Best

Please remind me when was the last time ZOS solved a complex problem with a simple solution.

Cyrodiil? --- Lagging like ever
Group Finder? --- Still buggy
PVE skills vs PVP skills? --- Yet to be solved

please remind me, when was the last time zos managed to make a complex system work

Dont_do_drugs wrote: »

Medhir wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Medhir wrote: »

observertim wrote: »

(reposted from my Update 23 announcement forum comment)
• Guild Shops where several guilds can buy a limited amount of trader space (10-15 slots/member) in a single zone for a fixed fee. Possibly even limit the number that can buy in a zone (say 10 or 20), though that would just end up being a lesser version of the current problem; though the smaller guilds would at least get a chance that way.

I could imagine something similar to Tim's suggestion, with a little twist like:
Guilds could choose to hire one particular trader for the upcoming week and subscribe for one out of its several differently sized slot-packs for fixed subscription fee based on the total sales made during the last 2-4 weeks on that particular spot.

In practice this would look like this:
Mournhold trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 1,5M; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 3M; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 9M
Riften trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 250K; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 500K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 1,5M
Out of Way Bang in the Middle of Nowhere trader kiosk --- pack nr1: 5 slots/member for 10k; pack nr2: 10 slots/member for 20K; ... pack nr5: 30 slots/member for 30K


This would maintain the current gold sink and satisfy ZOS and also would maintain the current system of lower subscription prices for low traffic areas and higher subscription prices for high traffic areas with a promise of higher income in return so in other words preserving competitive trading.
Also this could provide a wide enough range of semi-predictable fees week after week for small, mid and even large guilds and still would give an affordable opportunity for non-trading guilds to set up their adjustable sized shops all around Tamriel based on the extent of their wallet while eliminating the problem of ghost/revenge/rage guilds...
And with the guaranteed traders for all i almost forgot the welcoming sight of stress-free Sunday nights for us guild leaders and for our officers, Amen!

Making a system that is already so complex that it neither facilitates selling, nor buying more complex is NOT the solution here.

Basic rule of almost everything K.I.S.S

All The Best

Please remind me when was the last time ZOS solved a complex problem with a simple solution.

Cyrodiil? --- Lagging like ever
Group Finder? --- Still buggy
PVE skills vs PVP skills? --- Yet to be solved

please remind me, when was the last time zos managed to make a complex system work

No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.

No complex system survives contact with the players.

sirinsidiator wrote: »

Don't be mistaken. I am a fan of the kiosk system and believe it is part of the identity of ESO. The part I was referring to as the "worst system" is the blind bid system in particular and the whole guild management side of the game in general.

You are correct it is certainly a apart of ESO's "identity".

I think it is a "half decent idea, abysmally executed".

When the guild I was playing LOTRO and Wildstar with came to ESO there were about 40 of us.
32 of those left once they realised there was no way to sell goods to other players without jumping through ridiculous Gold-Sink-Hoops.

As time went by and nothing was done to fix the two biggest flaws with the system:
1) There are way more Guilds than Kiosks - just think about how stupid that is.
2) Buyers have to spend hours jumping across the world to find what they are looking for - just think about how stupid that is.

More of them left. Now, I'm the only one of that group left.
I have never been in a Trade Guild, never likely to be in one.

I may use the kiosk system once a month, maybe less.

I'm a buyer that may want to buy from you - but the current system makes that a chore, so I tend not to.
I'm potentially a seller too - I am a Crafting Mat Hoarder (I am in every MMORPG I have played) - I have TONS of EVERYTHING - but getting that product to market is far too much of headache to bother with.

Instead I've told my guildies that if they need Craft Mats drop me a line, if I have it in stock they can have it, for free.
Taking business away from the guys with Kiosks.

And the inanely stupid bid process does one thing and one thing ONLY - for ever inflates prices.

The people most likely to need - for example - Craft Mats in bulk, are new players looking to speed level crafting.
This system fails.
1) They have no easy way to find out who has what, or even where all the Kiosks are.
2) Because of "ever inflation" that almost certainly can't afford the prices being asked even for Tier 1 Mats.


If you were to sit 20 Gamers doown and ask them to design an MMORPG Trade System that was as clunky as possible, didn't meet the prime need of sellers (easy access to customers) and did not meet the prime need of buyers (easy access to the goods you want) it would be almost impossible to for them to beat the current system.

The basic idea of it - individual trade kiosks reminiscent of Medieval Market Traders - is great, I TOTALLY understand why they went for it.

The actual implementation of it genuinely could not have been worse had they been trying to make it worse.


All The Best