Enemy position desync and AoE telegraph bug: This is not how you develop software

code65536 · July 2019

A little bit of history...

2019-06-03: The 5.0.7 incremental patch introduces a bug that causes enemy positions to become desynced and AoE telegraphs to appear in the wrong location. One of the fixes/changes in 5.0.7 had some sort of unintended side effect.
2019-06-10: The 5.0.8 incremental patch makes an attempt to fix this bug. The patch notes read, "Fixed an issue where some monsters that were supposed to be locked in place would instead turn to face your character. This fixes many gameplay issues, particularly with cone and Area of Effect based attacks, most evident in Trials but found throughout the world." Either this fix was not actually included, or it just didn't work, as none of the problems were fixed or improved.
2019-06-17: No mention of a fix in the 5.0.9 patch.
2019-06-24: No maintenance, no incremental patch.
2019-07-01: No mention of a fix in the 5.0.10 patch.

This is a major game-breaking bug. Yet here we are, ONE MONTH later, with no fix in sight. @ZOS_Finn wrote 10 days ago, "The issue with damage and telegraphs not lining up is being worked on by the our engineers as we speak. We know its frustrating and it is a top priority to get fixed."

What is infuriating about this process is why the change that caused this bug wasn't simply backed out and reverted in 5.0.9. After the initial attempt at a fix in 5.0.8 didn't work, indicating that the problem was complicated, then you should have immediately reverted the fix from 5.0.7 that caused this bug. Whatever bug that was fixed in 5.0.7 is not nearly as bad as this bug that it has caused as a side effect. Reverting the the 5.0.7 change while going back to the drawing board is the standard--and common-sense--way to address this. You don't leave a bug like this festering for a whole month while you try to find a way to fix this.

Frankly, from my perspective as a software developer, the way that ZOS has handled this bug is appallingly, disgracefully amateurish.

And to salt the wound, today's patch notes contains this precious gem: "Fixed an issue where you were able to swap out abilities during combat."

Instead of fixing a glaring pain point that has been around for a month, you go and fix an issue that nobody is complaining about. An issue that serves to ameliorate the effects of the common stuck-in-combat bugs in this game. What a splendid display of priorities.

xMovingTarget · July 2019

yet another patch not fixing anything that actully is broken..

SixVoltCar · July 2019

ZoS is in the business of microtransactions, the software is peripheral

code65536 · July 2019

And to clarify, this isn't just a problem of AoE telegraphs being inaccurate. Enemies are frequently position de-synced. This leads to complaints about minor issues like unlootable bodies in overland zones.

Or major issues like being unable to bash to interrupt key mechanics in dungeons and trials.

forumsmurf · July 2019

Have always said the same thing, REVERT REVERT REVERT if the change you released broke the game. Guess what they said?

ZOS_JesC wrote: »

Greetings, we removed a few bashing comments. This is a reminder to adhere to our forum rules when posting. Thank you.

So criticising them is against forum rules now. *** off.

Learn to *** rollback changes ZOS. Pathetic nutcases.

Sanguinor2 · July 2019

Yeah it really sucks, we are doing a second GH now for the People from our Group that missed it and we Always have to be super paranoid as soon as a cone appears, also went to asylum a few days ago and the Position desync of Llothis is making this Trial much much harder then it is supposed to be.
Now Im no expert in any Things Software or similar but reverting the Change that bugged Things in the first place seems to be a sensible Thing to do until a better solution can be found.

Blackbird_V · July 2019

It's ok next Quartly update probably will fix *** all and introduce more bugs with clown store cosmetics we dont *** need.

HatchetHaro · July 2019

As a game dev major who understands the game development pipeline and is studying hard to be a game dev myself, I know how hard game developers have it when it comes to developing and maintaining games, so I tend to have a bit more sympathy for ZOS whenever something bad comes up with ESO's performance. It doesn't make the bugs any less frustrating to deal with but I tend to be more understanding.

This bug doesn't do that for me. Honestly, it's continuing to *** me off every day I'm doing TTT progression. 2nd boss conal AoE hits group even when the telegraph points it in the complete opposite direction, enemies (including bosses) get desynced constantly and the stacks get ruined due to tanks being unable to taunt and position them, and people die to simple trash because enemy telegraphs are borked.

I'm not sure if this is a sign of poor management or merely incompetence on ZOS's part, but either way it is a problem. Doesn't help that they flag any post criticizing them in any little way as "dev bashing". I'm just saying, ZOS is not the type of game development company I'd like to work for when I graduate; the way I see it, things in there are ***.

Rerum · July 2019

Shut up and buy lootboxes.

idk · July 2019

Will this go down like the GF issue where Zos ignores the multitude of threads explaining the issue, some in detail that leaves no questin the GF is severally flawed then after a year they say they thought they had fixed it?

I keep saying that priorities are not there. Yes, they may be understaffed but priorities on major issues do not always get the attention they need and that all comes down to how Matt chooses to manage the team and this game.,

Regardless, good points and I hope this actually gets the attention of Zos unlike your detailed thread about the GF issue.

Uryel · July 2019

Sh*tty software development, and even sh*ttier communication. That's ZOS in a nutshell.

I haven't coded anything in 20 years, and I never was very good at it in the first place. Coding was just a side course so we could understand some of the logic we would work with as system and network techs, back at school. So, my understanding of it is very limited.

Still, it is beyond me that a dev team as a whole could create new bugs on completely unrelated things when trying to fix or add something else without anyone noticing. But then, we are talking about people who don't even seem to try their modifications on any testing environnment before live. Maybe they should have something like, I don't know, a test server. Even better, a public test server, so people could try stuff and file bug reports. Oh, wait...

Seems to me they outsource some of the code to some really cheap and lazy company, and then include the code without any testing, directly on the live servers.

Even worse is their communication skill. Or lack thereof. They tell you nothing, besides the usual propaganda : "we are killing it !" (yes you are, but maybe not the way you meant it first), "we are very satisfied of the feedback we got from Elsweyr" (did you really read them ?)... And that's it.

80+ pages thread discussing an unpopular change to Bosmers ? You know they are aware of it when they close another thread and point to this one, because they sure as heck never acknowledged it before. Countless reports about stamina necromancers bugged to hell and back ? Not a word. Servers about to catch fire from overload ? 6+ months before an official word, when they did their mea culpa and promised they will do better with their future communications. That was the last time they ever tried communicating.

Major bugs in the code ? Not a word, of course. At least nowhere where it matters. An issue like that should be an announcement on the main page, something like "hey guys, sorry about that mess, we're not sure as to when we can fix it, but we're on it". A rollback would have made sense, now it's too late, but at least they can apologise. Even if they don't think a word of it, even if they still only care about money, at least it would make them appear to care a bit. People are a bit more patient when they don't feel entirely ignored.

jcm2606 · July 2019

This isn't the first time this exact thing happened. Same thing happened to dodge roll, they messed with the dodge roll window to make it more intuitive when dodging projectiles, but they unintentionally broke dodge roll for numerous other skills. Forums have complained for months, they haven't even acknowledged it.

astraelis7 · July 2019

Don't even know what trial to try and progress with my group anymore.......everywhere is so bugged it's going to be a wipefest even if we learn the fights. It's been ~ a month and the level of acknowledgement this game-breaking issue has had from ZOS is abysmal

Haenk · July 2019

Let's face it - this seems to be a server side performance issue as well, DB probably too slow to update and transmit the status. This is probably the reason for the "no further comment", "no fix" status - "gag order" par excellence, no employee will talk about it and I doubt it will be fixed anytime soon.

astraelis7 · July 2019

It was introduced with an incremental patch though as OP explained

The state of the servers I'm sure doesn't help but this is nothing like anything we had before.

doopt · July 2019

Bump, this can’t leave page 1.

Suddwrath · July 2019

I’ve always wondered why ZOS doesn’t simply revert changes if a patch introduced a significant bug.

At this point it almost seems like a pride issue as though they want to make it clear that they’re ‘sticking to their guns’.

I had the same feeling back when they gave the excuse for the stuck in combat bug. They said they didn’t want to revert the change because it would be like putting on a bandaid rather than fixing the issue. But the issue is that it still isn’t fixed.

Suck it up, admit ya goofed, roll back the changes, and then re-release the patch after it has been fixed. Don’t force the community to deal with game breaking issues for months.

Lylith · July 2019

jcm2606 wrote: »

This isn't the first time this exact thing happened. Same thing happened to dodge roll, they messed with the dodge roll window to make it more intuitive when dodging projectiles, but they unintentionally broke dodge roll for numerous other skills. Forums have complained for months, they haven't even acknowledged it.

rune cage was another *** show with a similar story arc.

Oreyn_Bearclaw · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

And to clarify, this isn't just a problem of AoE telegraphs being inaccurate. Enemies are frequently position de-sycned. This leads to complaints about minor issues like unlootable bodies in overland zones.

Or major issues like being unable to bash to interrupt key mechanics in dungeons and trials.

I literally had to loot as I was jumping off a cliff yesterday in VSS. Couldnt get the prompt to come up, so i just ran straight through the dragons corpse right off the cliff spamming for my loot. It did work, but I am guessing not as intended...

But yeah, it's is really frustrating for HM progression groups to see half you team wipe when they were 10 feet outside the AOE cone.

redspecter23 · July 2019

A fix that causes more severe problems than it solves is no fix at all. I agree that particular fix should have been rolled back to the older version.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

It is pretty unbelievable that every piece of PVE end game content made since 2016 (vHoF, vAS, vCR, vBRP, and vSS) was broken simultaneously by this one bug. And that one minor incremental patch could cause a problem that is now going on for a month with no sign of a fix, and very little communication. It’s this type of nonsense that makes players so frustrated, and causes many to leave the game.

Kel · July 2019

InB4 thread locked for pointing out obvious truths about the incompetency this company has for bug fixes.

jypcy · July 2019

From 5.0.7, these few are my best guesses for what might have caused the aoe descyncs as a side effect:
-Dragons will now animate to turn more accurately.
-Fixed an issue where a Dragon engaged in combat with a solo player would sometimes not turn to face that player at vast distances.
-Fixed an issue where a monster could suddenly snap to face its target at the end of an ability cast.

With imo the third being the most likely candidate. However, that animation is still an issue (see Ice atro glacial fist/archer arrow spray), and if it caused more general desyncs, I’d think that nothing is lost by reverting it. The spin, which seems to be present either way, is certainly less annoying than the desyncs. Plus it has a standard workaround (remain in the same direction that the conal targets), whereas the desyncs are often more of a guessing game.

All that to say maybe ZOS has some reason that they typically won’t revert code changes even for a significant bug fix, but in this case as far as I can see there’s literally no functional drawback to reverting the (likely) change because it seems the only thing it did was introduce this other bug.

I’ve not been dragon hunting lately so if it’s related to one of those other changes I can’t speak to whether or not those issues were fixed or whether doing so was worth breaking much more in the general game. I’m going to go out on a limb and guess no.

code65536 · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is pretty unbelievable that every piece of PVE end game content made since 2016 (vHoF, vAS, vCR, vBRP, and vSS) was broken simultaneously by this one bug. And that one minor incremental patch could cause a problem that is now going on for a month with no sign of a fix, and very little communication. It’s this type of nonsense that makes players so frustrated, and causes many to leave the game.

It affects all content. In the Craglorn trials, the Warrior's shield throw can go in a completely different direction; we had to block every shield throw regardless of whether we were in the telegraph or not. Or the Serpent's poison spray hitting the group instead of the tank.

And it affects casual gameplay too.

doopt · July 2019

It’s an interesting approach to teaching the community at large how to block cast.

Monsieur · July 2019

We’re assuming that ZOS is competent enough to have a VCS.

casparian · July 2019

I suspect the coding was done by 3rd party contractors whose contracted work is now done, and since calling them back in to undo the work they did would incur a cost that wasn't in this quarter's financial plans, players are going to have to live with it.

skinnycheeks · July 2019

I’m normally pretty patient and understanding when things are broken but this one just sucks. This needs to be a higher priority. Also, what happened to you guys fixing hit boxes on the dragons for alkosh and zaan? That one has been busted since PTS released for this.

Red_Feather · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

And to clarify, this isn't just a problem of AoE telegraphs being inaccurate. Enemies are frequently position de-sycned. This leads to complaints about minor issues like unlootable bodies in overland zones.

Or major issues like being unable to bash to interrupt key mechanics in dungeons and trials.

Oh so that is why I cannot loot bodies regularly. It says target out of range.

WrathOfInnos · July 2019

code65536 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is pretty unbelievable that every piece of PVE end game content made since 2016 (vHoF, vAS, vCR, vBRP, and vSS) was broken simultaneously by this one bug. And that one minor incremental patch could cause a problem that is now going on for a month with no sign of a fix, and very little communication. It’s this type of nonsense that makes players so frustrated, and causes many to leave the game.

It affects all content. In the Craglorn trials, the Warrior's shield throw can go in a completely different direction; we had to block every shield throw regardless of whether we were in the telegraph or not. Or the Serpent's poison spray hitting the group instead of the tank.

And it affects casual gameplay too.

Good point, I forgot the Warrior was bugged too. I did not even know about the one in vSO. So basically only vMoL and vAA are working correctly (at least until someone points out that they are affected too, I have not been in either of these trials in the last month).

r3turn2s3nd3r · July 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

It is pretty unbelievable that every piece of PVE end game content made since 2016 (vHoF, vAS, vCR, vBRP, and vSS) was broken simultaneously by this one bug. And that one minor incremental patch could cause a problem that is now going on for a month with no sign of a fix, and very little communication. It’s this type of nonsense that makes players so frustrated, and causes many to leave the game.

It affects all content. In the Craglorn trials, the Warrior's shield throw can go in a completely different direction; we had to block every shield throw regardless of whether we were in the telegraph or not. Or the Serpent's poison spray hitting the group instead of the tank.

And it affects casual gameplay too.

Good point, I forgot the Warrior was bugged too. I did not even know about the one in vSO. So basically only vMoL and vAA are working correctly (at least until someone points out that they are affected too, I have not been in either of these trials in the last month).

vMoL is having some issues too, but not so horribly bad that it's a 'show stopper' and really only on the twins. We have seen extremely delayed conversions, both twins porting to the same door and also running from their prayer phase position to the center of the room and 'jump' back to their prayer positions.

We've also see the Mage in AA move from the center of the pad and walk half way over to the tank on the rock.