Maintenance for the week of April 6:
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
• PC/Mac: No maintenance – April 6
Are racial passives balanced?
-
Ri_Khan✭✭✭✭✭
✭Argonian and Bosmer passives need to be adjusted to put them on par with others. There's no doubt that there was a problem in PVP with these races. I know all about some OP lizard folk and a stupid amount of ganky wood elves too but this was a lazy "fix" that has been nothing but detrimental to my opinion of the game and devs.4 -
Trinity_Is_My_Name✭✭✭✭✭
✭Best balance they have ever been I.M.O. No answer to select from your poll to fit my answer.0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianTrinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »Best balance they have ever been I.M.O. No answer to select from your poll to fit my answer.
I cant add an option, but yeah sorry, you are right0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianJust quick fix: 4 people would had voted "racial passives are balanced", sorry i missed the option0
-
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Argonianthey d0ouobled healing done by set piece bonuses, so should they do also for the argonian racial passive
And still healing done is a crappy stat, because you get more healing done with the 129 spell damage than 4% healing done unless you already have 5000 spell damage which is unlikely.3 -
grannas211✭✭✭✭✭
✭NordDon’t care how many you tubers make builds with them, Nord is straight trash. No offensive stats at all.0 -
Drako_Ei✭✭✭✭✭Argoniangrannas211 wrote: »Don’t care how many you tubers make builds with them, Nord is straight trash. No offensive stats at all.
But they have the best tanking passives...
Sadly tanking is not about being tanky in this game, is about being a debuff/buff slaveEdited by Drako_Ei on June 22, 2019 5:24PM1 -
shimm✭✭✭✭✭Bosmermadeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »Can't believe people are calling for a bosmer buff.
Don’t think anyone is calling for a buff, but a replacement to a near useless racial skill (hunters eye, refresher -Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.)
Name one racial skill from any other race that is less useful. Pro tip: you can’t. Even the less useful racial skills add small buffs or at worst buffs “when dealing damage” (which you do all the time while playing the game.) The worst part of the hunter’s eye skill is the buffs are (nearly) useless and you have to use the giant stamina drain that is roll dodging.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »Wow, the title is almost irrelevant to the question being asked in the OP. Nothing about the title is actually mentioned.
All the class are pretty well balanced with a good mix of choices. One thing we do know for a fact is Zos has no interest in making changes or even considering changes to racial passives at this point as they have said as much.
As such I would expect they are not reviewing threads on the subject as it would be pointless.
Come on, it's obvious for everyone that orc has 1 set bonus more then other races. For unknown reasons, simply because somebody in combat team decided - let's make orc OP and buff max stamina from 500 to 2000, cause why not?
First of all, it is very much considered the racial passives have never been more balanced. yes orc is slightly but just slightly. There are going to be some races that are slightly more favorable as long as we have racial passives. Your 500 - 2k stam in is rather deceptive though.
Second of all, Zos has said they are not considering anything about racial passives right now.
You have said nothing to counter that.0 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭Bosmermadeeh91rwb17_ESO wrote: »Can't believe people are calling for a bosmer buff.
Don’t think anyone is calling for a buff, but a replacement to a near useless racial skill (hunters eye, refresher -Increases your stealth detection radius by 3 meters. Increases your movement speed by 10% and your Physical and Spell Penetration by 1500 for 6 seconds after you use Roll Dodge.)
Name one racial skill from any other race that is less useful. Pro tip: you can’t. Even the less useful racial skills add small buffs or at worst buffs “when dealing damage” (which you do all the time while playing the game.) The worst part of the hunter’s eye skill is the buffs are (nearly) useless and you have to use the giant stamina drain that is roll dodging.
I would argue that the snare reduction on redguard is near useless (even though martial knowledge as a whole is useful, though pigeon holing). It takes a 40% snare and brings it to a 34% snare. idt anyone will notice a 6% less snared movement speed.
But I agree, counter stealth isnt that useful, even in pvp in which it can be counter productive at times.1 -
Nevasca✭✭✭✭✭BosmerI am not sure why a lot of people voted Argonian.
1. Design: One of the best designs in racials IMO. The potion passive feels like a 5pc set, it changes how you build your character all around, and it is a really unique thing in PvP, with a Tri-Pot + Argonian passive you literally reset the fight to your favor, I don't think any racial comes close to have this much uniqueness.
2. Balance: I see a lot of people arguing about how Argonians stats are bad (mag, health and healing done), but fail to factor in the potion passive and immunity to diseased. You don't pick Argonian for healing or tanking, you pick it for the potion passive. Argonian is far from underpowered, might not be the best (especially PvE), but still pretty strong. They also have immunity to diseased status, which makes them immune to Major Defile from diseased procs(skills with disease damage but not the major defile buff, disease enchants, etc), this is very underappreciated IMO.
I think most of the votes comes from players that play only PvE, which in that perspective, yes, Argonians are definitly not close to BiS for either damage, healing and tanking (racials for tanking are pretty w/e though). But thing is, Argonian is more of a PvP race mroe than anything, just like Wood Elf have always been for example.3 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The only meh one is Redguard snare passive. Since snares have been significantly reduced in strength, the passive has become much less meaningful. Increase it to 25% to match Orc's sprint speed and Bosmer's roll speed and it's gravy.0331
06022 -
shimm✭✭✭✭✭Bosmerusmcjdking wrote: »The only meh one is Redguard snare passive. Since snares have been significantly reduced in strength, the passive has become much less meaningful. Increase it to 25% to match Orc's sprint speed and Bosmer's roll speed and it's gravy.
But that passive has a second benefit, It also grants 8% reduction in weapon ability cost... that combined with the 15% snare reduction (which you’re right, is definitely not as beneficial) makes it at least useful. I’d take it in a heartbeat over hunters eye.3 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianMartiniDaniels wrote: »Wow, the title is almost irrelevant to the question being asked in the OP. Nothing about the title is actually mentioned.
All the class are pretty well balanced with a good mix of choices. One thing we do know for a fact is Zos has no interest in making changes or even considering changes to racial passives at this point as they have said as much.
As such I would expect they are not reviewing threads on the subject as it would be pointless.
Come on, it's obvious for everyone that orc has 1 set bonus more then other races. For unknown reasons, simply because somebody in combat team decided - let's make orc OP and buff max stamina from 500 to 2000, cause why not?
First of all, it is very much considered the racial passives have never been more balanced. yes orc is slightly but just slightly. There are going to be some races that are slightly more favorable as long as we have racial passives. Your 500 - 2k stam in is rather deceptive though.
Second of all, Zos has said they are not considering anything about racial passives right now.
You have said nothing to counter that.
Yeah, I agree that buff from 500 health and stamina to 1000/2000 came at cost of proc stamina regen, but that proc regen was 384 in 4 seconds which is comparable to 192 not scaling regen, which we may divide by 1.5 (50% bonus regen is like minimal what stamdps has) to get standart 129 regen. So they just buffed orc replacing 1 set bonus for 2 set bonuses. Obviously one set bonus is not that big a difference, especially extra 1k health, but that difference is enough to form public opinion, which is "everything is orc".
About ZOS.. they also don't consider hardware extension of servers right now, so fact that they don't consider something doesn't mean that community should stop reminding them about improperly working things in the game.0 -
twing1_✭✭✭✭Argonianthey d0ouobled healing done by set piece bonuses, so should they do also for the argonian racial passive
And still healing done is a crappy stat, because you get more healing done with the 129 spell damage than 4% healing done unless you already have 5000 spell damage which is unlikely.
4% healing done actually does beat out 129 spell damage in almost all realistic scenarios (math here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/461580/healing-done-is-broken-and-inconsistent#latest)
But that is strictly in terms of healing done. 129 spell damage of course still has the clear advantage in literally every other scenario.
The tiny benefit 4% healing done has over 129 spell damage is completely outweighed by the drawbacks.1 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianLittlebluelizard wrote: »I am not sure why a lot of people voted Argonian.
1. Design: One of the best designs in racials IMO. The potion passive feels like a 5pc set, it changes how you build your character all around, and it is a really unique thing in PvP, with a Tri-Pot + Argonian passive you literally reset the fight to your favor, I don't think any racial comes close to have this much uniqueness.
2. Balance: I see a lot of people arguing about how Argonians stats are bad (mag, health and healing done), but fail to factor in the potion passive and immunity to diseased. You don't pick Argonian for healing or tanking, you pick it for the potion passive. Argonian is far from underpowered, might not be the best (especially PvE), but still pretty strong. They also have immunity to diseased status, which makes them immune to Major Defile from diseased procs(skills with disease damage but not the major defile buff, disease enchants, etc), this is very underappreciated IMO.
I think most of the votes comes from players that play only PvE, which in that perspective, yes, Argonians are definitly not close to BiS for either damage, healing and tanking (racials for tanking are pretty w/e though). But thing is, Argonian is more of a PvP race mroe than anything, just like Wood Elf have always been for example.
@Littlebluelizard I think you are overestimating the potion passive. Yes, in PvP, you are absolutely right and it's very good to have. But it's strange to have a race be only good at PvP and nothing else, don't you think?
Imperials get more sustain from Red Diamond than Argonians from their potion passive, Khajiit are not even that close behind. And Imperials also get 3% ult cost reduction, more health and more stamina than Argonians get magicka. The healing done passive from Argonians just doesn't make a difference to their sustain as it doesn't actually save the cost of 6 out of 100 heals, but due to overheal, there is no netsustain gain and no buff to their dps included unlike with Dunmer and Altmer, who both heal more than Argonians below 3333 spell damage (which healers are always under).
Nords get more ults too and thanks to being so tough for free, they have a lot more freedom with build options in terms of armor weight and sets. They can easily make medium armor tanking work.
The diseased status is only important in PvP too because nothing in PvE can apply it.
Their biggest strength is how forgiving they are with their potion passive, as you can use it as a life saver, which Imperials despite their higher sustain and healing can't. That's why I'd say they are a good race for beginner tanks, but that's not a real strength to be honest. Who wants to make a character and know that they aren't going to improve along with you?
I'd say Argonians need their poison resistance back, get their magicka buffed to 2000 and have their healing done buffed to 10% or completely changed to something else that fits them.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonian
Though it's only 100+ votes in the poll now, distribution of votes correlates with real situation very good.
You may see that there are almost no voices for nord, breton and orc because racial passives of this races are really good and passives complement each other for race BiS roles.
Dunmers and altmers are somewhat salty with their "stamina" sides, some khajiits are unhappy that they lost crit chance.
Bosmers are really unhappy due to lose of stealth and roll-dodge passive which is good for PVP, but of very limited use in PVE, and Argonians were really nerfed hard.
Redguards lost their BiS status, but they didn't lost their identity and overall passives look solid.
Unhappy Imperials are probably high-HP tanks, other then that new imperials are imo notably better and more versatile then previous ones.2 -
colossalvoids✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianArgonian needs a look that's for sure.
Khajiit wants his crit chance back but thats only me and not considering balance but build versatility.
Others are great, bosmer and nord was near useless before wrathstone and the dunmer changes are my favorite part.0 -
Ankaridan✭✭✭ArgonianArgonians were one of the most, if the not literally the most, useless races at launch.
Then we flipped 180 to being one of the strongest, to the point people were race-changing to lizard.
Now we're back down in the hole again. Not as bad as launch, but going from 1st place to nearly last stings.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonianthey d0ouobled healing done by set piece bonuses, so should they do also for the argonian racial passive
And still healing done is a crappy stat, because you get more healing done with the 129 spell damage than 4% healing done unless you already have 5000 spell damage which is unlikely.
Yep, some one did calculations back when healing done set bonus was 2% :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRFMFgIaiSk&t=5s
But it does not work simply like that (it is double so now u need 2500 spell dmg, nope it is is not that simple).
I remember reading a post somewhere on forums. Some one did calculations SPECIFICALLY for Argonian 6% healing done bonus... and it was still something like 3333 spell dmg needed for the 6% healing done to be at least close to 129 spell dmg bonus.
Still, very unrealistic to hit this much spell dmg. Especially on Argonian. Maybe some special builds using Altmer or Dark elf can do it but on Argonian ? Would be very hard to do, even with tons of self buffs.
Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on June 23, 2019 8:35AM0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭They are no where near close to balanced, but that's not surprising since nothing in the game really is.0 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Argonianid say bosmer and argonian need a slight adjustmemt....why not give argonias additionally the same healing bonus received and change the bosmer roll passive into a small constant penetration buff for their keen eyes and expert marksmanship....problem solved1 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭My Breton should have stamina racial passives. I want to either have the max stamina racial passive pick them or the opportunity to morph them look at that Breton knight for example.1 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭Bosmerbosmer tied into rolldodge is bullshlt, it is better to use orc with serpent mundus in pvp and roll dodge in pve just not work
argonian heal need to be buffed to adjust with healing done gear pieces and be a best class for healer5 -
Silver_Strider✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ArgonianIf I could, would've vote for both Bosmer and Argonian but Bosmer, despite having a dead passive, is still perform on par with Redguard so getting a new, not totally useless passive, would make them hands down better so its technically balanced because of the dead passive. If anything, if Bosmer were to get a better passive to Hunter's Eye, Redguard would need a buff as well, which I'd be fine with honestly.
Can't say that for Argonian.
Imperial matches Argonian Sustain, have more max stats, better damage and more utility. Khajiit sustain is almost in par with Argonian, have similar heal numbers and much better damage overall.
Breton has better sustain for healing while Altmer and Dunmer have more damage and better heal numbers, which is just awful in regards to balance that a passive that is 100% designed for a single purpose is overtaken by generic Spell Damage, which effects both damage and healing.
The burst resources from the Tri-Stat passive is grossly overestimated to a point people honestly believe it allows you to ignore sustain on an Argonian, which is far from true; even the builds that require you to go full on potion effectiveness are building solely for sustain purposes. It's less effective at sustaining your main resource than any other sustain race, the health return is meh in PvP and redundant in PvE, while the off resource restore was situational at best. The only argument that made it even remotely powerful was that it was something that happened all at once vs something that happened overtime but given that it would only ever put you ahead of a sustain race if you built for the potion passive, it really wasn't even that great to begin with since a race with natural sustain wouldn't have been pushed to that point as early as an Argonian due to their lower stats and lack of inherit sustain outside of the potion passive, to say nothing of how the other racial passives are affected by CP, passives, etc.
Racial balance isn't as bad as it used to be but its still bad regardless.Edited by Silver_Strider on June 23, 2019 2:09PMArgonian forever4 -
Nevasca✭✭✭✭✭BosmerLittlebluelizard wrote: »I am not sure why a lot of people voted Argonian.
1. Design: One of the best designs in racials IMO. The potion passive feels like a 5pc set, it changes how you build your character all around, and it is a really unique thing in PvP, with a Tri-Pot + Argonian passive you literally reset the fight to your favor, I don't think any racial comes close to have this much uniqueness.
2. Balance: I see a lot of people arguing about how Argonians stats are bad (mag, health and healing done), but fail to factor in the potion passive and immunity to diseased. You don't pick Argonian for healing or tanking, you pick it for the potion passive. Argonian is far from underpowered, might not be the best (especially PvE), but still pretty strong. They also have immunity to diseased status, which makes them immune to Major Defile from diseased procs(skills with disease damage but not the major defile buff, disease enchants, etc), this is very underappreciated IMO.
I think most of the votes comes from players that play only PvE, which in that perspective, yes, Argonians are definitly not close to BiS for either damage, healing and tanking (racials for tanking are pretty w/e though). But thing is, Argonian is more of a PvP race mroe than anything, just like Wood Elf have always been for example.
@Littlebluelizard I think you are overestimating the potion passive. Yes, in PvP, you are absolutely right and it's very good to have. But it's strange to have a race be only good at PvP and nothing else, don't you think?
Imperials get more sustain from Red Diamond than Argonians from their potion passive, Khajiit are not even that close behind. And Imperials also get 3% ult cost reduction, more health and more stamina than Argonians get magicka. The healing done passive from Argonians just doesn't make a difference to their sustain as it doesn't actually save the cost of 6 out of 100 heals, but due to overheal, there is no netsustain gain and no buff to their dps included unlike with Dunmer and Altmer, who both heal more than Argonians below 3333 spell damage (which healers are always under).
Nords get more ults too and thanks to being so tough for free, they have a lot more freedom with build options in terms of armor weight and sets. They can easily make medium armor tanking work.
The diseased status is only important in PvP too because nothing in PvE can apply it.
Their biggest strength is how forgiving they are with their potion passive, as you can use it as a life saver, which Imperials despite their higher sustain and healing can't. That's why I'd say they are a good race for beginner tanks, but that's not a real strength to be honest. Who wants to make a character and know that they aren't going to improve along with you?
I'd say Argonians need their poison resistance back, get their magicka buffed to 2000 and have their healing done buffed to 10% or completely changed to something else that fits them.
Potion passive is a "burst" sustain, unlike any other sustain passive, its the same reason Battle Roar is strong to reset fights. It's not meant to have as good sustain as Breton for example, but also have to take into account that restores all 3 resources which is really strong in PvP.
I don't think a race being specific for PvP is weird at all. Khajiit is a obselete race in PvE for example, since all other options do better than them, but they still have niche uses in PvP since crit damage is not that easy to get. Wood Elf is and always has been a PvP race only.
I don't think Argonian needs a total overhaul like the OP suggested, I don't think a buff to their health would be too bad, maybe +500 health would be nice. Poison resistance could make sense too, but it would either the resistance or the max stats otherwise it would be op again.1 -
Koronach✭✭✭✭✭ArgonianThe fact that my friend can't get into the core group on his Argonian Healer because he's Argonian speaks volumes. Supposed to be one of the best races at tanking and healing and can't even do that. Sorry but they failed and need to go back to the drawing board on some races.2
