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Why hybrid builds do not work for endgame pve.......
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭OP forgot crit chance is not shared.
I do not think Zos needs to address this. I certainly do not think Zos needs to make changes so that every possible build can be optimal which is exactly what this thread seems to be about.
Very clearly Zos stated that we can play anyway we want. But that did not imply all builds would be optimal. It is a waste of time for Zos to try to make hybrids optimal.Edited by idk on June 24, 2019 11:37PM3 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭Why does it need to out perform them. If they perform as well as them then isnt that sufficient? It's just another flavor to the mix.2
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Ei8htba11✭✭✭✭There's a saying: Jack of all trades, master of none.
Hybrid builds are fun, but if you don't specialise, you're not going to be the best. This doesn't stop hybrid builds, and they may be effective. If people were judged more on their utility in the group (did you do stuff that helped the group overall, did it create fun at the same time), as opposed to being judged on raw damage, they might be more of a thing.
Currently I think it's the way it should be, but again, it's that being judged by how much DPS you can do that's a hurdle.
.. in my opinion, obviously.
...I also have a melee stamsorc. She suffers, but damn she's fun.4 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭There's a saying: Jack of all trades, master of none.
Hybrid builds are fun, but if you don't specialise, you're not going to be the best. This doesn't stop hybrid builds, and they may be effective. If people were judged more on their utility in the group (did you do stuff that helped the group overall, did it create fun at the same time), as opposed to being judged on raw damage, they might be more of a thing.
Currently I think it's the way it should be, but again, it's that being judged by how much DPS you can do that's a hurdle.
.. in my opinion, obviously.
...I also have a melee stamsorc. She suffers, but damn she's fun.
This is very correct and pretty sure it is what was intended. While Zos has done some things to help hybrids out it is clear they know why hybrids are weaker and have chosen to not homogenize the game to resolve the issue OP brings up.0 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »
Clearly you haven't taken said stamina healer into any hard content.
Well i did just finish leveling them and i did gear one up as stated above. After sabbath ends in about an hour or so, i'll try something fun like et cradle of shadows and see how it goes. Might have to add an actual healing staff skill on the build that uses one until i can get my golden orbs thing from undaunted that i hate so much when i play a tank but for a healer i dont forsee any troubles. In battle grounds she performs well enough to suit me.0 -
AcadianPaladin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Integral1900 wrote: »ZOS has a skittish attitude to hybrid builds, personally I prefer them to pure ones but I do so accepting a massive drop in power because that’s simply the way the game ended up. Hybrid builds were never meta, and as a former meta addict I don’t really care, but the gap wasn’t as vast at launch with its soft caps as it is now.
The biggest problems with cp for hybrids is that it caused an intensification of the old mmo build bottleneck by making it optimal to go down a handful of build rabbit holes, inadvertently closing doors rather than opening them. It added options but made a few vastly superior to others so rather than creating more variety for builds it did the exact opposite, so now combined with certain sets we are in the frankly ludicrous situation of trials dps characters that pull over 120 thousand dps in execute! Against that hybrids will always be second rate.
Personally I would merge weapon and spell damage, crit and penetration into just one for each. It would have no effect on meta builds that the hm trials gang love so much but at the same time it would create a diaspora of fun builds for the rest of us and with half as many reference points it would mean less calculations in pvp, maybe even less lag.... oh well, I can dream 😍
I love this idea as an elegantly simple way to narrow the gap between pure / hybrid while still leaving enough incentive to go pure mag/stam for those who want to run at the very top levels.PC NA(no Steam), PvE, mostly solo0 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Why should someone specializing in two different things be as strong in both as someone who only specializes on one? That makes absolutely no sense.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)5 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »Why should someone specializing in two different things be as strong in both as someone who only specializes on one? That makes absolutely no sense.
Why should a magicka player perform equally as well as a healer, dps, or tank when (as is so often asserted) a stamina player can not?
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FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)5 -
xeNNNNN✭✭✭✭✭
✭Pelinal's Aptitude is the only set that can in theory make it work but its held back by how damage scales of all respective max resources + WD and SD.
Aptitude is actually viable in PvP but its definitely not the best thing you can use but it is in terms of hybrid sets. Using something like Pelinal's and shackle can work but you wont be amazingly powerful per say. More freedom, less damage.
You can have a ton of weapon damage for example but your stam pool wont be more than 33k probably which means you'll lose out an a great deal of damage.
Honestly though the game is far too stam vs mag to actually make hybrids 100% viable. The game is in constant competition with each opposing max resource and now some things i.e necro are scaling off max health for damage (ravenous is utterly pitiful in terms of damage excluding bash but thats neither here nor there).
To make it work they'd have to add something of a third wheel that altered the scaling depending on what kind of set you're wearing. Though even then that could potentially break shacklebreaker entirely.Ah, e-communities - the "pinnacle" of the internet............yeah, right.0 -
Jamdarius✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »The game is fine the way it is.
No it is not, a lot of players loved to play Spellsword classes in single TES games, we want it in ESO.5 -
MattT1988✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »The game is fine the way it is.
No it is not, a lot of players loved to play Spellsword classes in single TES games, we want it in ESO.
Don’t “we want”. You don’t speak for everybody. Personally I’m fine the way it is.3 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I know.
"Play as you like." is more like "Follow a guide and no hybrids.".
Don't really see the point in having the option of two power sources, if you can't combine them without paying penalties?2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why should a hybrid build dps perform better than non hybrid builds? I wouldnt appreciate a hybrid dps out performing my pure magicka or pure stamina dps, doesnt make sense
They currently perform worse (not equally), that is the point.
No one is asking for hybrids to out-perform; just that they should perform equally.Edited by Tigerseye on June 23, 2019 8:54AM0 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't know, I liked all my hybrid builds...at least until this update and the last one stuck a fork in them. Thanks ZOS. If ZOS wants to help hybrids out, there'd need to be sets that put the following:
Major Savagery + Major Prophecy
Major Prophecy + Major Brutality
From what I've seen its nearly impossible to get all four buffs alone without either being a DK or Templar, or sacrificing a lot of skill slots. Wasting skill slots alone makes hybrids suffer before any other mechanic is even factored in.
The Khajiit with both crit rates looked promising, but of course ZOS could not let that go because it would obviously be the go-to for tanks in PvP (even though ZOS could have just finally addressed hp% heals and finally require an investment for them to work effectively, but no, that's not how ZOS balances and we see the result right now in PvP anyway
).
Either way, it doesn't matter because hybrids aren't ever going to be top-tier in PvE because ZOS has to nerf them to "balance" pure builds and PvP. Every nerf stabs a hybrid harder than a pure build every time.0 -
Glurin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Why should a hybrid build dps perform better than non hybrid builds? I wouldnt appreciate a hybrid dps out performing my pure magicka or pure stamina dps, doesnt make sense
Because the hybrid player is better skilled as a result of being far more familiar with the inner workings of the build since they constructed it themselves piece by piece, constantly tweaking and making adjustments, experimenting with different skills and gear, etc. and is better able to adapt to different situations. The pure build player, on the other hand, saw a youtube video, copied the build, dumped everything into one stat, and has absolutely no idea why the build works the way it does.
Seriously though, I do understand the point you're making. If we take all other factors out of the equation and focus just on the math, pure builds should out perform hybrids on strict comparison of whatever the pure build is specialized in. The problem arises when that difference is so dramatic that you could put a monkey in front of the keyboard playing a pure build and outperform a skilled hybrid. For example, someone mentioned getting 25-35k on a hybrid, which sounds about right, but pure builds are doubling that."He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you..."1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because this game (like in many others games) dps formula has geometric progression - the more you invest into damage the more each investment brings. Obviously separating your max pools doesn't do any good here and same comes for crit chance and damage (to lesser extent) and to much higher extent to penetration.1 -
ryzen_gamer_gal✭✭✭✭Oakmontowls_ESO wrote: »ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »
Clearly you haven't taken said stamina healer into any hard content.
Oh yes i have!
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/481566/vet-sacle-caller-peak-with-stamina-healer/p1?new=11 -
Ei8htba11✭✭✭✭I'm a nightblade, I spend all my time not adventuring at the 'citadel/training ground'. I practise against dummies, sparring partners. The Sifu at the training hall gives me a rigorous training regimen, a strict diet and physical exercise. He expects good things from me.
Later I wander into the Mages guild. The Mage adept says he see's good things in me, all I need is training. He gives me various studies. Hand movements, incantations and trials of concentration and will. There is also a lot of reading, keeping me up late and making me tired the following day.
My Sifu notices my performance is slipping, are you not applying yourself to your training he asks?
I explain to him about my other studies. He replies: If you split the river to water two fields, each will only receive half as much...4 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@ryzen_gamer_gal
Is it a true hybrid though? I get what you're going for with it, and well done for a functionally viable off-meta build. You have invested all stats in stam, and you have built around weaonry and armour as stam. Your focus is stam. It's a stam healer. You've splotted some mag skills... That doesn't make it hybrid.
If a magsorc uses dark conversion for sustain aid, is it hybrid? No.
Your healer is not a multi resource, weighted build - - not hybrid. Not a true one anyway. Again though, interesting build.Edited by mairwen85 on June 23, 2019 11:42AM3 -
Itacira✭✭✭✭✭Genuinely don't understand why some players are so reticent to this. If hybrid isn't your cup of tea, then great ! But why be soa disturbed at peoole asking for a playstyle that'd make them happy, especially one that the game ADVERTISES ON ? "Play as you like''PC/EU - PVE 2H stam orc petsorc (meta, what meta?) ww - terrible dps - mediocre player - fun times - free ww bites to whomever asks so don't be shy if interested3 -
Lightspeedflashb14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Genuinely don't understand why some players are so reticent to this. If hybrid isn't your cup of tea, then great ! But why be soa disturbed at peoole asking for a playstyle that'd make them happy, especially one that the game ADVERTISES ON ? "Play as you like''
play as you like does not mean play as you like and be the best at everything.2 -
Itacira✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »Genuinely don't understand why some players are so reticent to this. If hybrid isn't your cup of tea, then great ! But why be soa disturbed at peoole asking for a playstyle that'd make them happy, especially one that the game ADVERTISES ON ? "Play as you like''
play as you like does not mean play as you like and be the best at everything.
Obviously, ''play as you like'' means ''do whatever mate but don't expect the game to be balanced in any way towards making that experience an enriching and entertaining one''PC/EU - PVE 2H stam orc petsorc (meta, what meta?) ww - terrible dps - mediocre player - fun times - free ww bites to whomever asks so don't be shy if interested2 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Somber97866 wrote: »Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Not if you use Pelinal Aptitude, but its extra niche.0 -
rotaugen454✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I have a Magicka and a Stamina version of each class, with a few hybrids added in. Every hybrid is a tank."Get off my lawn!"1 -
usmcjdking✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭None of these answers are correct. The only answer is Hybrids suck because Pelinal's does too little and there isn't enough CP to support a quality hybrid. 1500ish CP and if Pelinal's could equalize Damage AND Critical Hit Chance then you've got some decent damage.0331
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »The game is fine the way it is.
No it is not, a lot of players loved to play Spellsword classes in single TES games, we want it in ESO.
Again, the game is find the way it is. You can play as you want. That is very much a fact of the game. But never has that implied that every build is just as good at the same thing as every other build. Unfortunately that is what you want.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭usmcjdking wrote: »None of these answers are correct. The only answer is Hybrids suck because Pelinal's does too little and there isn't enough CP to support a quality hybrid. 1500ish CP and if Pelinal's could equalize Damage AND Critical Hit Chance then you've got some decent damage.
I already mentioned the issue with crit chance above. Further, you are not correct either as it has nothing to do with Pelinals. If anything Pelinals demonstrates that so much makes us choose as so much is split as OP starts of explaining.
It seems to be a conscious choice from Zos to keep the division and I doubt Zos is interested in homogenizing the game that much to make hybrid DPS truly competitive with hybrids. Pelinals is merely a sign they are not interested in doing so.0