Why hybrid builds do not work for endgame pve.......

Somber97866

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

The game is fine the way it is.

kathandira

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Depends on what level of End Game we are talking about.

I personally count Normal Trials as End Game, granted it is the beginning of the End Game, but to me, it is still part of it. I feel like you could get away with fun quirky builds in Normal, but in Vet Trials, i'd have to say no thank you.

srfrogg23

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Yup. You pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

mocap

in ESO hybrid build is more like hybrid role: DD/Healer, Tank/Healer and DD/Tank.

There is only one real stat hybrid build for now, Tank.

Danksta

You can do enough damage on a hybrid DPS to have a full team of them and clear all vet trials.

Kikke

I could easily build a mag/stam hybrid and still out dps 80% of the ESO community... Not that hard when your average ESO player thinks 20k dps is alot...

Wildberryjack

I want to make a couple hybrid builds due to the races now having hybrid passives but the damage modifiers and the five piece gear requirement for bonuses make it pretty much impossible to have a hybrid build that is as strong as a regular build. Seems a bit of an oversight on ZOS end considering the racial passive changes.

Royaji

Almost like specialising in one are brings more benefit and raw strength in this specific area compared to trying to evenly spread everything and end up being good at nothing.

FrancisCrawford

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Also, some of the champion points aren't shared, including those that affect crit.

GoldenLight

My main is kind of a hybrid and does well on all trials and dungeons I run though most of the time I am just soloing Undaunted dailies in the 4 man dungeons (either veteran or normal depending on my mood and dungeon). I am not top end DPS or Heals or Durability but a good balance.

I built my build around my play style and it works for me. My suggestion to people who ask me about builds is to build around how you play and you will always do better than trying to learn someone else's play style for their build.

Still leaves me a good setup with the build on my Sorcerer

It works in balance to take hits well (with the resistances and shield at 50% of health), heal quick for self and others (at around 11,000 health a pop), do decent damage and still have enough stamina to dodge roll and block when needed.

This is just what works for me and I have not had to change my build for 2+ years.

danno8

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Also, some of the champion points aren't shared, including those that affect crit.

True. Although CP do have diminishing returns which means a spread between different damage types could net you overall more effectiveness.

Ie: 100 points gets you 15% in one star, but a 50/50 split will get you 10% in two stars. Overall 20% is better than 15%.

edit: As Royaji explains below, this was a newb math mistake. I think my point was that CP diminishing returns lessens the impact on hybrid builds, however there is no question that hybrid builds do not benefit from CP like pure builds do.

Royaji

danno8 wrote: »

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

Also, some of the champion points aren't shared, including those that affect crit.

True. Although CP do have diminishing returns which means a spread between different damage types could net you overall more effectiveness.

Ie: 100 points gets you 15% in one star, but a 50/50 split will get you 10% in two stars. Overall 20% is better than 15%.

That's not how math works. No ability in the game scales from both damage types. So a hybrid with 10% and 10% still ends up with 10% increase for any skill. A pure build with 15% increase gets 15% on all of his skills. 10% + 10% is worse than 15%.

josiahva

I have seen hybrid builds able to pull 35k+ DPS. While that is not anywhere close to top of the dog pile, its still perfectly sufficient for all end-game content and is still likely more DPS than 75% of the DPS community does anyway. The fact is hybrid is not as good as a pure build and likely never will be...but that doesn't mean you cant play a hybrid and do just fine...right now my half-levelled hybrid sorc is putting out something like 25k DPS...I suspect if I actually played him more and finished levelling all the skill lines, etc I could push it to about 30K...or probably 35k if I chose a DK Dunmer as the base class and race. One thing is sure though: It is harder to get good damage out of a hybrid than a pure build.

blkjag

Danksta wrote: »

You can do enough damage on a hybrid DPS to have a full team of them and clear all vet trials.

You can change a tire with a hammer but why would you?

Danksta

blkjag wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

You can do enough damage on a hybrid DPS to have a full team of them and clear all vet trials.

You can change a tire with a hammer but why would you?

The OP stated that hybrids don't work for endgame PvE, not that they weren't optimal.

Thannazzar

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

The answer to the title is simply.. Because ZOS got rid of soft caps.

Somber97866

At the end of the day there isn't a top shelf, BIS, endgame meta hybrid ( like staff and now or staff and two handed ) builds bc all builds will outperform if build solely towards one type. Unless they start sharing specs.

TheShadowScout

Thannazzar wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

The answer to the title is simply.. Because ZOS got rid of soft caps.

^This!^

And yeah, I also wish there would be more build flexibility, sadly... right now "all in one damage stat" is the META, and I hate it.
Bring back softcaps, or at least -some- "diminishing returns" system for attributes over, say, 25 or 30...

I also would want to see incentives to penalize those who put it all in S/M, and nothing into H. Like... making the damage you take from poison, disease and environmental effects (including traps) dependent on your health stat! Like...at H-25 and abobe, just like now, at H20-24, plus 50%, at H 15-19, plus 100%, at H 10-14, plus 150%, at H5-9, +200% and at H below 5... 300% extra damage from those!

Oh, well.

Massacre_Wurm

Hybrids can be interesing i pvp.
But in pve ? On casual level - sure , they can be viable. But there is simple no purpose for hybrids. Combining wall of elements with caltrops will not improve your dps even if you can get max of both resources , crits and damage.

alanmatillab16_ESO

TheShadowScout wrote: »

Thannazzar wrote: »

Somber97866 wrote: »

I'm my experiences, in trying to make a magic and physical damage build, I always run into walls.
Penetration isn't shared
Weapon and spell damage are also separate
Damage scales off max resources
Armor passives are most effective with 5pieces
These hurdles are what keep the hybrid builds ( 95% of the time) from working.
What are everyone else's thoughts?

The answer to the title is simply.. Because ZOS got rid of soft caps.

^This!^

And yeah, I also wish there would be more build flexibility, sadly... right now "all in one damage stat" is the META, and I hate it.
Bring back softcaps, or at least -some- "diminishing returns" system for attributes over, say, 25 or 30...

I also would want to see incentives to penalize those who put it all in S/M, and nothing into H. Like... making the damage you take from poison, disease and environmental effects (including traps) dependent on your health stat! Like...at H-25 and abobe, just like now, at H20-24, plus 50%, at H 15-19, plus 100%, at H 10-14, plus 150%, at H5-9, +200% and at H below 5... 300% extra damage from those!

Oh, well.

If you force players to put points into a particular stat then you might as well get rid of that stat as a choice to put points into in the first place as everyone would have the same amount.

If someone wants to have a glass cannon for a character that needs a pocket healer then let them. Your character your way?

Metafae

My class spamable is Soul Trap.

Integral1900

ZOS has a skittish attitude to hybrid builds, personally I prefer them to pure ones but I do so accepting a massive drop in power because that’s simply the way the game ended up. Hybrid builds were never meta, and as a former meta addict I don’t really care, but the gap wasn’t as vast at launch with its soft caps as it is now.

The biggest problems with cp for hybrids is that it caused an intensification of the old mmo build bottleneck by making it optimal to go down a handful of build rabbit holes, inadvertently closing doors rather than opening them. It added options but made a few vastly superior to others so rather than creating more variety for builds it did the exact opposite, so now combined with certain sets we are in the frankly ludicrous situation of trials dps characters that pull over 120 thousand dps in execute! Against that hybrids will always be second rate.

Personally I would merge weapon and spell damage, crit and penetration into just one for each. It would have no effect on meta builds that the hm trials gang love so much but at the same time it would create a diaspora of fun builds for the rest of us and with half as many reference points it would mean less calculations in pvp, maybe even less lag.... oh well, I can dream 😍

LennoxPoodle

I think if they do a few tweaks, hybrids might be brought up to speed. Firstly we shouldn't forget, that two resource pools with two sets of regeneration could have the potential for superior sustain (tank builds already kind of prove that) with lower effectiveness per cast, if tweaked accordingly. The second option is introducing more of a logarithmic progression within each attribute would also offer a hybrid build a larger total return compared to focused builds which can apply their strength mor concentrated.
Both might work best together. The second is kind of an application of the first.

TheShadowScout

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

If someone wants to have a glass cannon for a character that needs a pocket healer then let them.

Except they don't.

Right now, they build a aluminium cannon that is strong enough to survive thanks to prismatic armor enchantment boosting the HP to decent levels and still kills everything before it can be killed in return.

I would only want to see those choices matter more... see characters who put ALL into offense get penalized heavily in defense. Make that "glass" shatter if they go glass cannon!

If they still want to - Choice! I'd respect that.
But there ought to be drawbacks...

ryzen_gamer_gal

mocap wrote: »

in ESO hybrid build is more like hybrid role: DD/Healer, Tank/Healer and DD/Tank.

There is only one real stat hybrid build for now, Tank.

what about stamina healer?


https://dottzgaming.com/build/vigorspam-warden-healer-pve-build/

Majority Stamina but still uses magicka. I have just finished making two of these. One on each server. On one i follow the script with the two bows and on another i have gone off script using dual wield and healing staff. In the case of using dual wield and healing staff i use the design for each of the dual wield weapons according to the 2 bow specs and then use the healing staff to restore stamina with the enchant, While i am not actually using any healing staff active skills for the healing, the passives are a great help. And so i use echoing vigor and soothing spores off the stamina and then i also heal off the magicka with budding seeds as a back up when i get low on stamina because i don't have a lot using magicka and anyway the pool is much lower. This option with the healing staff works because the staff restores magicka for budding seeds and the stamina regen enchant as well as the bull netch are restoring stamina.

However you choose to tweak the design, warden stamina healer is a hybrid build that works.

Spent the past week leveling them up to 50. They Suit me. Want to try running jorvulds guidance on weapons and jewls for the buff and debuff bonuses as this build uses skills that provide each and then a high end stamina armor set with a good healer monster set like lord warden or chokethorn

mairwen85

A jack of all trades is master of none...

but often times better than a master of one

If the only trade you need is damage or healing, a jack of trades is gimping your success.

ryzen_gamer_gal

mairwen85 wrote: »

A jack of all trades is master of none...

but often times better than a master of one

If the only trade you need is damage or healing, a jack of trades is gimping your success.

clearly you didnt see my post directly above yours.

Red_Feather

I think pvp is the only content that rewards having a build that can adapt on the fly... to change roles, to switch to self-sufficient, to circumvent a specific type of resource drain, etc. PvE is do a static thing, or two things, as high as possible.

Oakmontowls_ESO

ryzen_gamer_gal wrote: »

mairwen85 wrote: »

A jack of all trades is master of none...

but often times better than a master of one

If the only trade you need is damage or healing, a jack of trades is gimping your success.

clearly you didnt see my post directly above yours.

Clearly you haven't taken said stamina healer into any hard content.

SoLooney

Why should a hybrid build dps perform better than non hybrid builds? I wouldnt appreciate a hybrid dps out performing my pure magicka or pure stamina dps, doesnt make sense