Frustrated about Molten Whip

datgladiatah · June 2019

Let me preface this by saying the glitch that we experienced the last 5ish days with this bug was incredibly overpowered and clearly had consequences for the game's health.

However, now that the ability is working as intended, I'm not sure what the point of the ability is over the morph it replaced. So, when you activate it, it completely removes the stacks, including the spellpower/weapon power, but this only is removed when you use the whip, and so if it's slotted and you use other Ardent Flames ability, to keep the increased DPS from the buff.

How does this make any sense? The ability now works 100% better with the StamDK because they have no reason to activate it but can awkwardly slot it for passive damage. If a MagDK uses their spammable as intended, they instantly lose the maximum effect of the buff for a relatively powerful burst hit. I'm not much of a PVP player, but I don't see why anyone would trade for this one additional hard hit compared to the other morph, and from a PvE perspective, it's completely anti-gameplay. Why would I activate 3 abilities to max out the 350 typeless spellpower buff if it just goes away after 1 whip, while in comparison the already overperforming StamDK gets to keep their buff between two bars if they slot whip on both ends? This just isn't a well thought-out morph.

Here's what I propose:

1. It should just be Spellpower. ZoS needs to figure out how to make something for Stamina that isn't just a passive buff effect, because it's just not fun to play around with. Either give them a stamina morph or figure out a use for another ability.
2. The spellpower should stay, the actual buff should probably be less spellpower overall, and it should require that targets are hit by Ardent Flame abilities (right now you can just keep casting FoO or Firebreath to max the stacks before a fight)
3. The whip buff should stay for a duration of some type. It was enjoyable to enter a 'mode' where the DK and go all out on this effect and be rewarded, especially since magDK doesn't really have the ability to backbar the whip without it taking away some significant tools, so they should be able to intelligently stack the buff until having to rotate again.
3a. At the very least don't have the spellpower go away after consuming the whip's buff proc. MagDK's shouldn't punish themselves by NOT using whip in order to keep the spellpower and keeping their DoT's stronger than just activating the spammable. As it is now, firebreath with the whip equipped might do no more than 10% less damage, and it's an AOE. Just like StamDK, it's more rewarding to use that as a spammable than the whip. It's like slotting inner light or bound armor, it's not fun to just play around abilities just for their slotted buff potential.

That's my thoughts on it, what does the community think?

Insco851 · June 2019

It’s not the spammable... it’s the delayed burst skill in this scenario.

datgladiatah · June 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

It’s not the spammable... it’s the delayed burst skill in this scenario.

I mean, it IS a spammable attack. It's been used as such by magDK's before this change. If it WAS designed to just be a delayed burst skill, it fails to do so by things I've already mentioned, but I'll repeat again:

1. It gives flat weapon and spelldamage. No other delayed burst skills give a passive buff that increases dps when you choose not to use it. Even more so for StamDK who has no reason to activate the proc AND to doublebar it.

2. MagDK's don't have any open slots to double bar the ability AND another spammable without cutting other effects abilities like inner light. NB's grim focus, Warden's Shalks, Sorc's frags don't make these same sacrifices.

3. If it was just a delayed burst skill for PvE, why does it still mechanically allow usage unlike the 3 classes I brought up? And why does it punish a MagDK for using it as such when it's even less punishing for overall DPS to just double bar whip, spam other Ardent Flame abilities, yet not use the whip? Why does MagDK lose out of so much when StamDK just gains without consequence?

jcm2606 · June 2019

In my opinion, it's just flat out poorly designed. It's a pseudo spammable and damage proc in the one skill, where one screws the other. Use it as a spammable, you can't take advantage of the proc (unlike Flame Lash, where you can control when you use the proc). Use it as a damage proc, you can't use it as a spammable, forcing you to use other skills as spammables. (Fine on stamDK since they can just slot it to get the 375 weapon damage, but what of magDK? Whip is magDK's spammable, and you now expect us to just stop using the intended spammable for our class?)

For a similar reason, I don't like the fact that you have to use other Ardent Flame abilities to work up the Seething stacks. Your intended spammable rewards you for using another skill as a spammable. How is this good design?

I'd like to see Molten Whip change to have a consistent damage buff, instead of a damage proc. Have Flame Lash be the burst morph, and Molten Whip be the consistent damage morph. To help this, I'd like Seething stacks to be built off of hitting an opponent with Molten Whip while they're under the effects of an Ardent Flame effect, namely Burning Embers. Make me actually use my intended spammable, to buff my intended spammable.

Soundinfinite · June 2019

@datagladiatah and @jcm2606

Both of you are correct and I hope that someone sees, reads, or at least hears about this. Magicka DK needed love, and the team finally came and gave them some. It was OVERPOWERED, when broken, yes, but this will stay that way for Stam players. The broken mechanic won't change as they won't use the skill and will ALWAYS have the buff. Thus, Magicka players are back to the drawing board on how to maximize the build and class. Namely, yes, slot the skill and use a different spammable just so you can take the buff in stats, which does limit skill bar space, and magicka is already limited, as a Dragonknight MUST slot Inner light for the magicka gain since they can not get it elsewhere.

Meanwhile, Stam Dk's just got a passive 375 weapon damage buff to their build to compound Stamina's already monstrous ability to stack Weapon damage from Fighter's Guild and Medium armor skill line. In PVP Heavy is King, but be a Nord (Which already pairs excellent with a DK) and you can run medium armor and carry the same resistances as heavy and take all these advantageous.

I understand what the intent was, to make a bursty magicka skill that helped overall damage output of the Magicka DK since it was sitting pretty bottom of the pack. In order to do this they kinda combined the new Sorc Passive Amplify with the Necro Skulls. Every third skull does 20% more damage plus do more overall damage passively. However, the way it is designed and conceived It ends up ineffective in its intent, and further compounds the issue of Stamina Dominance in both PVE and PVP as it works better for their builds and design.

Why does it give Weapon Damage? Why isn't it simply a timed buff (3 Ardent Flame skills equals 375 Damage for 6 sec for example) Why is the very skill that grant the buff the same skill that uses the buff? Why can't we have strong Magicka Character's outside of a Pet Sorc?

I dunno?

But maybe there will be some changes.

TrinityBreaker · June 2019

How is stamDK overperforming exactly?

Checkmath · June 2019

Just adding here some PvP-perspective.

In PvP this skill actually fills the gap many magdks lacked so far: A strong burst attack, which can finish off enemies right away. Magdks lacked either an execute or such a strong ability, which kind of skips the need on an execute.

The new molten lash, with the seething fury stacks, is one of the hardest hitting single target skills in the game. Up so far nobody used molten whip, since flame/powerlash was much more powerful and granted strong healing. But in Elsweyr magdks got other healing abilities buffed like coagulating blood and with the blackrose restoration staff back in murkmire, their need for additional healing from powerlashes declined. That is why many magdk builds now can include molten whip in their builds, making them more effective in getting some killing blows.

As just said, magdks struggled so far finishing off their targets in PvP. They mostly had to rely on their ultimates to get the kills. Dragon leap was the go to ultimate, for its strong burst damage. But in Elsweyr the reliance on ultimates to kill an enemy got countered by the new molten whip. Now magdks build up to max stack of seething fury by applying their dots of burning ambers and engulfing flames as the usually do. Afterwards they either add another engulfing flames (which now deals pretty strong instant damage) or activate cauterize/flames of oblivion to get the third stack. All that should already wear down an enemy quite a bit. Now it is time to get off that molten whip by getting a guaranteed hit after using fossilize. The burst damage from molten whip is insane and can rip off enemies half health bar (I guess 10 to 15k molten whip hits are nothing special in PvP). Even more destructive is molten whip used right after leap, almost instagibbing people like this.

In conclusion, molten whip is a very powerful tool for magdk builds, which overcome the missing healing from powerlash (as said, permablock builds or builds with strong off healing or blackrose staves have no problems to do so). The killing power of those dks increased a lot, making magdks probably the second strongest magicka class for PvP right after magsorc.

Now last week those stacks were not consumed by molten whip, which in PvP caused very unhealthy situations. Being able to get off several max stacks molten whips was insane amount of damage and it was reported several times, that this needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

Vildebill · June 2019

I did a pretty big and comprehensive write-up on the topic yesterday: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/480535/dragonknight-and-seething-fury

I totally agree with you, this so called buff just doesn't make any sense at all.

Benzux · June 2019

All the MagDK buffs have been good, and my DPS on my main has increased tremendously, where the only change that I've done to my rotation was applying Burning Embers twice in a row when refreshing to get the 3 stacks for the strong whip. With a simple change I went from about 30k average DPS to 36k - which is a huge buff. And while I do really like the new Molten Whip (Never used Flame Lash myself, since proccing off-balance on target dummies on your own is a bit hard without running lightning staff), I do agree with all of you guys' points. The idea? Good. Execution? Bad. Molten Whip - and DKs as a whole - did need a buff, and they got one, but they could have done it in a much better way, and I really hope Molten Whip will be looked at again in a future update - hopefully soon.

Soundinfinite · June 2019

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

juhislihis19 · June 2019

Soundinfinite wrote: »

Meanwhile, Stam Dk's just got a passive 375 weapon damage buff to their build to compound Stamina's already monstrous ability to stack Weapon damage from Fighter's Guild and Medium armor skill line. In PVP Heavy is King, but be a Nord (Which already pairs excellent with a DK) and you can run medium armor and carry the same resistances as heavy and take all these advantageous.

StamDK's did not get a passive 375 weapon damage. In order to get that buff, sDK need to actually slot it AND never, ever use it. And it has absolutely no other use. Slotting skills for sDK, and probably many of the classes, is particularly hard because the DK class skills almost all favor magDK's.

Molten Whip -> MagDK's get a strong spammable in addition of the secondary effect, stamDK only gets the secondary
Fragmented Shield -> StamDK uses it only for the Mending, the damage shield is practically useless
Spiked Armor -> StamDK uses it only for the resistance buff, the damage shield or the magic damage DOT are practically useless
Protective Scale -> other morph suits both but the flame damage dealing morph benefits mDK's a lot more

Not to mention ALL of these skills (exclude Molten, as sDK never activates it) use magicka, and are quite costly as well. And because sDK is supposed to be a DOT class, it means we need to slot several DOT/bleed skills (at least 2-3).

So I agree that the weapon damage increase shouldn't be on otherwise useless skill but possibly in actual passives. "Slotting an Ardent Flame skill increases your Weapon Damage by 150" or similar. Maybe this would actually encourage sDK's to pick Venomous Claw ahead of bleeds and use Inferno.

Overall, I'm baffled why ZOS won't do more stamina morphs for DK. Necro has 5 out of 15 and it seems well enough.

Checkmath · June 2019

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

Especially in PvP I wvalue such an opportunity of massive damage much more than those 375 spelldamage. Also You seem to forget, that many skills do not change its damage output, when you lose the stacks, for example many dot abilities still damages the enemy for the same value, after you used up the stacks with molten whip.

I am not sure, what exactly you want: Just keeping the stacks instead of losing them after a molten whip? So hat molten whip will just need several casts of ardent flame abilities to get its damage amp, meanwhile the stacks remain? I think what the devs want is you to decide, if you want burst or consistent damage increase and in that case molten whip is what they wanted to achieve with the skill. But I also have to agree here, that if stamdks slot molten whip for the flat damage increase, then it somehow does not match the intent and probably is just a lazy implementation.

jcm2606 · June 2019

Checkmath wrote: »

Just adding here some PvP-perspective.

In PvP this skill actually fills the gap many magdks lacked so far: A strong burst attack, which can finish off enemies right away. Magdks lacked either an execute or such a strong ability, which kind of skips the need on an execute.

The new molten lash, with the seething fury stacks, is one of the hardest hitting single target skills in the game. Up so far nobody used molten whip, since flame/powerlash was much more powerful and granted strong healing. But in Elsweyr magdks got other healing abilities buffed like coagulating blood and with the blackrose restoration staff back in murkmire, their need for additional healing from powerlashes declined. That is why many magdk builds now can include molten whip in their builds, making them more effective in getting some killing blows.

As just said, magdks struggled so far finishing off their targets in PvP. They mostly had to rely on their ultimates to get the kills. Dragon leap was the go to ultimate, for its strong burst damage. But in Elsweyr the reliance on ultimates to kill an enemy got countered by the new molten whip. Now magdks build up to max stack of seething fury by applying their dots of burning ambers and engulfing flames as the usually do. Afterwards they either add another engulfing flames (which now deals pretty strong instant damage) or activate cauterize/flames of oblivion to get the third stack. All that should already wear down an enemy quite a bit. Now it is time to get off that molten whip by getting a guaranteed hit after using fossilize. The burst damage from molten whip is insane and can rip off enemies half health bar (I guess 10 to 15k molten whip hits are nothing special in PvP). Even more destructive is molten whip used right after leap, almost instagibbing people like this.

In conclusion, molten whip is a very powerful tool for magdk builds, which overcome the missing healing from powerlash (as said, permablock builds or builds with strong off healing or blackrose staves have no problems to do so). The killing power of those dks increased a lot, making magdks probably the second strongest magicka class for PvP right after magsorc.

Now last week those stacks were not consumed by molten whip, which in PvP caused very unhealthy situations. Being able to get off several max stacks molten whips was insane amount of damage and it was reported several times, that this needs to be fixed as soon as possible.

The problem is, all that comes at the cost of not being able to use Molten Whip as a spammable, while still retaining the burst needed to close a kill. If you use Molten Whip as a spammable, you'll work the stacks up, then immediately waste them since you're just spamming Molten Whip.

That's the problem I have with it, it effectively takes magDK's intended spammable, and turns it into another version of Grim Focus or Crystal Frags. You're better off having it slotted on the side, and using Engulfing or whatever as your spammable, to build the stacks up, then use Molten when you need the burst to kill somebody. Unlike Grim Focus or Frags, which are designed to be slotted on the side, Molten is taking the spot of the spammable in the class kit, meanwhile it punishes spamming it. It makes no sense.

EDIT: And the above comment, your last one, is precisely why I want to see a split between Flame Lash and Molten Whip. As you said, magDK now has the healing capabilities to ignore the hot from Power Lash, so they could rework Power Lash to be a controllable burst proc, while having Molten Whip be a constant damage increase, and you make the choice between them. Want more consistent damage output? Go Molten Whip. Want burst to close a kill when you need to? Go Flame Lash. Both can be used as spammables, without sacrificing the secondary bonus.

Soundinfinite · June 2019

@juhislihis19 For PVP Stam DK your argument is a sound one. There is a loss of having to give a skill slot. And that is the case with ALL classes. This is one of the reasons I favor PVP over PVE, that there is more choice and more reward/punishment in build design. Every one of my Characters, no matter stam or mag in PVP could use more skill slots and there are always skills I have to give up or just can't fit.

However, in PVE the situation becomes far less dire, and for an actual PVE Stam Dk DPS (Not Tank) all the skills you have brought up become moot and are not needed or slotted on most builds and the magicka cost doesn't matter. While giving up a slot is always giving up a slot. The gain of slotting Molten Whip as a passive buff will far out weigh the skill you drop for it.

This again is vs the Magicka DK which as a DPS MUST slot Inner LIght for its Max Magicka Passive which means you are already running at 4 slots out of the gate on at least your main bar. If you then slot Molten Whip as a buff skill (As the Stamina DK Can) Your bar is now down to 3 skills and one of which needs to be a SECOND spammable. Plus you have to also have the Ardent skills to fill the bar to activate the passive and keep up the buff. Which basically relegates your Front bar to Spammable/Engulfing Flames/Burning Embers/Inner Light/and Molten Whip. 2 of which are DOT meaning you will have to double tap one (Wasting magicka) in order to keep the 3rd stack active of the buff. Fine, it is what is it.

Turn to PVP and the Magika DK is in the same spot as your Stamina DK, the exact same spot basically in consideration of bar space and skill cost. DK skills are sky high compared to other classes and Magicka is a precious commodity on a DK.

While all of this CAN be done, and Players are doing this...though most are just taking the loss of the stack and using Molten Whip as their spammable cause they don't have the bar space...and yeah, at least it gets the 33% hit boost whether you're losing the stack or not, it is a poor design choice, again counter-intuitive to actual game play, and punishes the player for using a skill that is supposed to boost their overall performance.

@Checkmath Yes the 33% damage boost to Molten Whip cannot be beaten, by another spammable. But it is not a constant buff, unless you continuously weave it with another Ardent Flame ability. (Burning Embers could accomplish this) However, you would then be losing out on the damage of weaving light attacks and also taking away the DOT pressure of Burning Embers.

In PVP, yes it would make sense for you to save this skill and start using it as an Execute, Pulling it out to deal a massive hit and thus consuming the stack. However, it would still be MORE beneficial to slot 2 spammables and use the other NON Molten Whip during the fight with the higher 375 Stacked Spell Damage Value and then ONLY use the Molten Whip in Execute Range (Esp if wearing Bloodthirsty). But here you still have the problem of needing 2 spammables to be MOST advantageous and if you use Molten Whip before you hit that 25% Bloodthristy Sweetspot you lose both the 33% damage boost AND the 375 Stacked Spell Damage, let alone the skill you have lost slotting Molten Whip on top of another Spammable.

In PVE the 375 Spell Damage buff over the course of a boss and skill rotation will FAR outweighs the occasional 33% extra damage hit. And in Dungeon and Trials the 25% Execute Phase needs more than one strong finishing hit and Molten Whip cannot keep up its extra 33% damage boost. Thus again, using it as a BUFF over an active skill is far better.

375 Extra spell damage is NOTHING to sneeze at. To be able to give that to your Character at all times without an entire 5-Piece set is impossible and even then only manageable with 100% uptime by Rattelcage and if you don't move Mantle of Siroria. (Spell Strat too, but thats single target only).

Is this what they truly intended? Because I think the wanted it to work how you are actually using it. But that doesn't actually keep the skill at its most advantageous.

As to what I want, I think it is the same as you and the devs. To have a skill that boosts the overall performance of a DK DPS. One that finally gives a Magicka DK some Burst and kill potential in PVP while also granting an overall performance boost in PVE. And for it to do it in a way that isn't punishing to the player or counter intuitive to the skills use.

Wuuffyy · June 2019

TrinityBreaker wrote: »

How is stamDK overperforming exactly?

No no. You missed already over performing. It was OP before this you just couldn’t tell because of the non existence of Stan dks in the pve scene and the over abundance of DK tanks... But yeah they were “already over performing”

Ps... the sky is falling?! So nerf the sky!

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

Design is complete garbage and you are forced to double slot whip. It's not fun, it's not clever and it's not good.

Sanguinor2 · June 2019

The Thing I find really sad About molten Whip Right now (and magdk dps for pve in General) is that it took a bug to make pve magdk dps not a meme for 1 week since the last 2 years, had fun finally being able to Play my magdk again without gimping my Group. Guess now I gotta wait another 2 years for the next 7 days where I can Play magdk as dps again.

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

The Thing I find really sad About molten Whip Right now (and magdk dps for pve in General) is that it took a bug to make pve magdk dps not a meme for 1 week since the last 2 years, had fun finally being able to Play my magdk again without gimping my Group. Guess now I gotta wait another 2 years for the next 7 days where I can Play magdk as dps again.

Ye same, I just got false god set and created my first whip build on saturday, not being aware of the bug. I know I should be aware of it, but I wasn't. I saw one forum post about someone complained in pvp that whip did too much dmg but didn't think too much about it. Again every class out there with more stat passives are better, like it have always been.

Ender1310 · June 2019

juhislihis19 wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

Meanwhile, Stam Dk's just got a passive 375 weapon damage buff to their build to compound Stamina's already monstrous ability to stack Weapon damage from Fighter's Guild and Medium armor skill line. In PVP Heavy is King, but be a Nord (Which already pairs excellent with a DK) and you can run medium armor and carry the same resistances as heavy and take all these advantageous.

StamDK's did not get a passive 375 weapon damage. In order to get that buff, sDK need to actually slot it AND never, ever use it. And it has absolutely no other use. Slotting skills for sDK, and probably many of the classes, is particularly hard because the DK class skills almost all favor magDK's.

Molten Whip -> MagDK's get a strong spammable in addition of the secondary effect, stamDK only gets the secondary
Fragmented Shield -> StamDK uses it only for the Mending, the damage shield is practically useless
Spiked Armor -> StamDK uses it only for the resistance buff, the damage shield or the magic damage DOT are practically useless
Protective Scale -> other morph suits both but the flame damage dealing morph benefits mDK's a lot more

Not to mention ALL of these skills (exclude Molten, as sDK never activates it) use magicka, and are quite costly as well. And because sDK is supposed to be a DOT class, it means we need to slot several DOT/bleed skills (at least 2-3).

So I agree that the weapon damage increase shouldn't be on otherwise useless skill but possibly in actual passives. "Slotting an Ardent Flame skill increases your Weapon Damage by 150" or similar. Maybe this would actually encourage sDK's to pick Venomous Claw ahead of bleeds and use Inferno.

Overall, I'm baffled why ZOS won't do more stamina morphs for DK. Necro has 5 out of 15 and it seems well enough.

I just want to ping on the last thing you just said. More Stam morphs. Don’t care about power. Tired of using same skills for every Stam toon. Thanks.

cheemers · June 2019

Flame Lash is the magDK spammable, Molten Whip is their frags/spectral bow. Use whichever morph suits your needs.

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

cheemers wrote: »

Flame Lash is the magDK spammable, Molten Whip is their frags/spectral bow. Use whichever morph suits your needs.

Even without double whip and not fully procced, it's still better than flame lash. Flame lash is like 2k more dmg and the good thing about it is prob the heal and reduced cost, not the dmg.

jaws343 · June 2019

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

WoppaBoem · June 2019

I love the change combined with the increased damage on engulfing flames. I use embers and engulfing to wear down a enemy which are mostly very mobily in Cyrodill (AoE spitting fire is awesome). When I get the enemy pinned down use the whip stack and it hits hard. Best is when you can leap and whip its a win.

You can still use the whip as spammable while you have your dots up same as before. This mostly for tanky slower targets. For the rest the gameplay change made me love my MagDK much more. Before it was a bit brainless. Now you need to time to build up the stacks and line up the burst. The mini game is much appreciated by me a main magdk.

I really think the execution is great of how they brought this into the game. The weapon damage is strange but if my fellow stamdk's get a buff like this you know better for them, its nice

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

jaws343 · June 2019

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

If the stacks remained, DK would be broken even more. As it is, it's too powerful imo. At least with it's current setup, you have to plan an attack. It rewards smart gameplay. PVP needs more of that and less mindless stacking/passive damage mechanics.

TrinityBreaker · June 2019

datgladiatah wrote: »

How does this make any sense? The ability now works 100% better with the StamDK because they have no reason to activate it but can awkwardly slot it for passive damage. If a MagDK uses their spammable as intended, they instantly lose the maximum effect of the buff for a relatively powerful burst hit. I'm not much of a PVP player, but I don't see why anyone would trade for this one additional hard hit compared to the other morph, and from a PvE perspective, it's completely anti-gameplay. Why would I activate 3 abilities to max out the 350 typeless spellpower buff if it just goes away after 1 whip, while in comparison the already overperforming StamDK gets to keep their buff between two bars if they slot whip on both ends?

Right here in the original post @Soundinfinite

MartiniDaniels · June 2019

I don't get it, this ability hits harder then Grim Focus, with guaranteed stacks from cheap aoe spammable. MagDK is in winning position here, not a stamDK. I will be grateful if it scaled with "largest resource", so why OP whines as MagDK idk. L2P?

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

If the stacks remained, DK would be broken even more. As it is, it's too powerful imo. At least with it's current setup, you have to plan an attack. It rewards smart gameplay. PVP needs more of that and less mindless stacking/passive damage mechanics.

every other class has a mindless passive damage exept dk tho. Sorc get spell dmg just from having abilities slotted. Templars have crit dmg passives for example. DK have to be melee and keep up their skills within 5 sec to get some spell dmg, I don't see how this is way too OP. And I also did mention to in this case, take away the bonus dmg from the whip. I agree with your points ofc to reward smart gameplay. But the pve vs pvp balance isn't really good in this game. What about whip lash or what that morph is called. Who using that for example? It's always one dead morph and the other morph being used both in pvp and pve, thats the thing.

WoppaBoem · June 2019

jaws343 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

If the stacks remained, DK would be broken even more. As it is, it's too powerful imo. At least with it's current setup, you have to plan an attack. It rewards smart gameplay. PVP needs more of that and less mindless stacking/passive damage mechanics.

I agree and it sounds very entitled to just get free spell damage as stacks. What class or skill or anything gives spell damage outside of gear and buffs. And important to note that magdk is not the most played or anything best in PVE damage. The devs removed a major part of the PVP toolkit with the reflect of wings but added the mini game with the stacks. This was very well done and I hope proof of good template when they change a huge part of a toolkit and also replace it with something equal. As a main magdk PVP I feel they did that here.

Magdk PVE is in the same spot at Magwarden. For PVE not the best and this is not nice for players who want to play them. However buffing them would create huge imbalance in PVP as both are very good in PVP. And I have seem exceptional players on both classes in PVE. If you are good and not part of Hodor or something similair you will be better than any given class.

WoppaBoem · June 2019

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

If the stacks remained, DK would be broken even more. As it is, it's too powerful imo. At least with it's current setup, you have to plan an attack. It rewards smart gameplay. PVP needs more of that and less mindless stacking/passive damage mechanics.

every other class has a mindless passive damage exept dk tho. Sorc get spell dmg just from having abilities slotted. Templars have crit dmg passives for example. DK have to be melee and keep up their skills within 5 sec to get some spell dmg, I don't see how this is way too OP. And I also did mention to in this case, take away the bonus dmg from the whip. I agree with your points ofc to reward smart gameplay. But the pve vs pvp balance isn't really good in this game. What about whip lash or what that morph is called. Who using that for example? It's always one dead morph and the other morph being used both in pvp and pve, thats the thing.

Both morfs are good in PVP. The extra damage finally filled a huge gap magdk was missing in PVP. It is a buff, it create rotation you don't like so everything has to change for you?

Patch notes:
Developer Comment:
Spoiler
The previous Molten Whip was under budgeted in terms of total power compared to Flame Lash, and rather than reducing that morph, we wanted to bring this one up to par. Additionally, we like how Flame Lash has the potential to disrupt a static rotation in combat, so we wanted to add a diverse bonus that would allow for you to engage in different ways. Now, the caster can decide to simply follow a normal rotation, or attempt to save up for a heavy hitting attack after building up stacks. Please note however, this will operate similarly to the previous Molten Whip where your bonus will only be active on the bar that it is slotted on.

jaws343 · June 2019

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

This skill is straight up OP on a magdk in PVP. My magdk uses claws to chip away at the health of an opponent and build stacks for whip. My whip tooltip is over 20K with 3 stacks. It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players. Not to mention, you can build 3 stacks and use a stronger leap and transition into whip for insane burst damage.

OP or not, it's still bad designed. I haven't thought too much about it, but my personal biggest issue with it, it's the loss of spell damage stacks. They could for example make it so whip didn't remove the spell dmg stacks, but didnt increase the whip dmg either. I'm sure this would balance both pve and pvp. Pvp wouldn't have this ridiculously powerful hit like you mention, and pve'ers would finally get rotation where they keep up the spell dmg stacks and all are happy.

If the stacks remained, DK would be broken even more. As it is, it's too powerful imo. At least with it's current setup, you have to plan an attack. It rewards smart gameplay. PVP needs more of that and less mindless stacking/passive damage mechanics.

every other class has a mindless passive damage exept dk tho. Sorc get spell dmg just from having abilities slotted. Templars have crit dmg passives for example. DK have to be melee and keep up their skills within 5 sec to get some spell dmg, I don't see how this is way too OP. And I also did mention to in this case, take away the bonus dmg from the whip. I agree with your points ofc to reward smart gameplay. But the pve vs pvp balance isn't really good in this game. What about whip lash or what that morph is called. Who using that for example? It's always one dead morph and the other morph being used both in pvp and pve, thats the thing.

Lash is still useful in PVP. It just depends on what you want out of the skill. Do you want more damage and a boost to your other skills, run whip. Do you have issues with sustain and healing, run lash. My setup is straight damage and sustain, so I don't need to run lash on it anymore because I can get away with sacrificing the heal and free cast on off balance for greater damage. And the changes to wings has increased my survivability against multiple targets. I even switched cauterize for flames of oblivion to get more damage and replaced shacklebreaker with Silks of the Sun. magdk kills so fast and has enough defensive skills that you can run full glass cannon in BGs with ease.