Frustrated about Molten Whip

Haquor

jaws343 wrote: »

It is ridiculously powerful. It deletes players.

A few days ago I was on my mage dk and dueling a friend and he went offline. I whispered him and got error that the player could not be found. I txt him on his mobile and got no response. A couple of hours later i got a call from his wife who was worried cause he wasnt home.

It turns out that my last whip hit him that hard that he was unsubbed, account deleted and erased IRL. Now each night we hold a vigil for him. Im trying to think of how i am to explain to his wife and three small children what i have done to thier family.

Insco851

datgladiatah wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

It’s not the spammable... it’s the delayed burst skill in this scenario.

I mean, it IS a spammable attack. It's been used as such by magDK's before this change. If it WAS designed to just be a delayed burst skill, it fails to do so by things I've already mentioned, but I'll repeat again:

1. It gives flat weapon and spelldamage. No other delayed burst skills give a passive buff that increases dps when you choose not to use it. Even more so for StamDK who has no reason to activate the proc AND to doublebar it.

2. MagDK's don't have any open slots to double bar the ability AND another spammable without cutting other effects abilities like inner light. NB's grim focus, Warden's Shalks, Sorc's frags don't make these same sacrifices.

3. If it was just a delayed burst skill for PvE, why does it still mechanically allow usage unlike the 3 classes I brought up? And why does it punish a MagDK for using it as such when it's even less punishing for overall DPS to just double bar whip, spam other Ardent Flame abilities, yet not use the whip? Why does MagDK lose out of so much when StamDK just gains without consequence?

Lemme repeat... it’s not meant as the spammable. It’s the delayed burst.. 10k whip? After a 10k+ Leap?

The broken part of this is you can stack seething fury outside of combat and basically gank with an ulti combo. But hey keep spamming it.

mursie

i would be surprised if a stamdk could fit this on the bar passively with the cramped real estate already, and find a way to keep it up using noxious, cauterize, venom claw (which alot of builds don't even have slotted)... and make it worthwhile.

after the pre-reqs of forward momentum and executioner, you typically see cauterize, noxious, and armor buff.

I guess you could fiddle around to try and make this work but it just seems like it would be very inefficient. have you seen stamdks using this passively in pvp to any great effect?

datgladiatah

And let me repeat: it's bad game design. If you read my post I said I didn't want it to be exactly what it was pre bugfix. But there's no intelligent decision making here for PvE DK players, because while flame lash is controlled burst, Molten Whip overall provides more damage because it gives a free 350 spell damage for just going through a rotation. The only difference is you can't use the whip itself or you'll lose the spelldamage.

Just because it accomplishes a single goal well doesn't mean it wasn't ridiculously poorly executed. MagDK's don't want to throw away their PvE viability by slotting their bars strangely to meet the demands of active buff effects. No other class has to jump through hoops like that.

It's not healthy game design, period.

WoppaBoem

datgladiatah wrote: »

And let me repeat: it's bad game design. If you read my post I said I didn't want it to be exactly what it was pre bugfix. But there's no intelligent decision making here for PvE DK players, because while flame lash is controlled burst, Molten Whip overall provides more damage because it gives a free 350 spell damage for just going through a rotation. The only difference is you can't use the whip itself or you'll lose the spelldamage.

Just because it accomplishes a single goal well doesn't mean it wasn't ridiculously poorly executed. MagDK's don't want to throw away their PvE viability by slotting their bars strangely to meet the demands of active buff effects. No other class has to jump through hoops like that.

It's not healthy game design, period.

Nope don't agree. Have a good day do

Dashmatt

I love the new (and fixed) Molten Whip and I hope it doesn’t change.

jaws343

datgladiatah wrote: »

And let me repeat: it's bad game design. If you read my post I said I didn't want it to be exactly what it was pre bugfix. But there's no intelligent decision making here for PvE DK players, because while flame lash is controlled burst, Molten Whip overall provides more damage because it gives a free 350 spell damage for just going through a rotation. The only difference is you can't use the whip itself or you'll lose the spelldamage.

Just because it accomplishes a single goal well doesn't mean it wasn't ridiculously poorly executed. MagDK's don't want to throw away their PvE viability by slotting their bars strangely to meet the demands of active buff effects. No other class has to jump through hoops like that.

It's not healthy game design, period.

Not every skill or morph of skill needs to be viable in all game modes...

Xvorg

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

md3788

Why isn't seething fury just an Ardent Flame passive and not built into a spammable skill? It requires other ardent flame abilities to build the stacks so wouldn't it make sense for this to be an ardent flame passive? People compare it to the spectral bow, but at least that doesn't have to be double barred.

Lord_Sando

StamDK's did not get a passive 375 weapon damage. In order to get that buff, sDK need to actually slot it AND never, ever use it. And it has absolutely no other use. Slotting skills for sDK, and probably many of the classes, is particularly hard because the DK class skills almost all favor magDK's.

Congratulations you now have a useful bound armor (hobo skill).................


jealous Stam sorc

Onefrkncrzypope

Lord_Sando wrote: »

StamDK's did not get a passive 375 weapon damage. In order to get that buff, sDK need to actually slot it AND never, ever use it. And it has absolutely no other use. Slotting skills for sDK, and probably many of the classes, is particularly hard because the DK class skills almost all favor magDK's.

Congratulations you now have a useful bound armor (hobo skill).................


jealous Stam sorc

Do you need to spam 3 dots to keep bound armor up?

PvE sDK its a nice buff. I just removed the double barred hunter. I honestly would be fine with the aspect of a burst skill. If and only if, there was a spammable to replace it on the mDK(PvE) speaking. With quicker TTKs in PvP, as opposed to trials bosses, molten whip is very nice. PvE wise its a nonsensical skill with no real alternative.

JumpmanLane

Simply put, if you’re fighting outnumbered or very dangerous players you’ll want to run flame lash.

There are way better ways to build for damage than molten whip on a MagDk.

IxskullzxI

Xvorg wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

Your last sentence really hits home for me. I just came back after a year break from the game, and tedious really sums up how I feel about the mDK right now. The class is definitely in a better place than it was a couple years ago, but it's just not as enjoyable to play anymore. The amount of micromanagement it takes to be somewhat competitive almost outweighs the enjoyment I get out of it.

Insco851

IxskullzxI wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

Your last sentence really hits home for me. I just came back after a year break from the game, and tedious really sums up how I feel about the mDK right now. The class is definitely in a better place than it was a couple years ago, but it's just not as enjoyable to play anymore. The amount of micromanagement it takes to be somewhat competitive almost outweighs the enjoyment I get out of it.

Sounds like you should try magblade next for the ultimate mini game experience. I hear necro also has some cool mini games to learn!

datgladiatah

Xvorg wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

I'm not against "minigames" (mechanics) but this one ability is just layered in *** and potential punishment that it does exactly as you say, make the character tedious and frustrating. Nothing about "cast three DOT effects on top of each other and over their duration to buff an ability meant to be used consistently" screams fun. Flat benefits aren't really fun either but, at the same time, have an ability that works how you want it to is satisfying. There are many simple ways to handle molten whip (maybe it could do extra damage to a burning target or when an Ardent Flame DoT is active on it) but the ability as it stands is just not fun and puts way more slotting pressure in the mDK than most other classes have to deal with (special note on this, I think Sorc is antifun for the same reason)

Insco851

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

jcm2606

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

Savos_Saren

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

Three abilities that cost magic and are limited to melee range (even chains are below the PVP "reach" threshold)

-versus-

Five light attacks that cost nothing and that can be weaved in between ranged skills and fires a ranged ability that can hit a player beyond 40 meters while simultaneously reducing your damage received. Cry me a river.

My Magblade has a tooltip of 21,456 for my Spectral Bow (Innate, War Maiden, Slimecraw)
My MagDK has a tooltip of 19,545 for my whip (Innate, Silks, procced Domihaus with the x3 abilities buffed)

As for your bolded part- Leap doesn't buff whip. It would have to be the 250 ultimate Standard.

Insco851

Lol you gonna use that magic regardless. Moot point.

And I WISH I could somehow find the deaf afk kids to hit 40m bow procs on without them dodging. That *** makes the loudest tell in the game. They could be changing their kids diaper and still have time to grab the controller and roll.

Insco851

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

Derra

Just let it procc on itself.

Checkmath

Derra wrote: »

Just let it procc on itself.

Hmm so spamming molten whip will guarantee a 33% damage increase on every whip....Still the problem of many here is, that the first whip will consume all three stacks and would only give back one stack. The dots are running anyway scaled on the stacks you had when casting tough, its just reapplying the dots after the whip does not profit from 3 stacks, but only one, when the whip itself procs stacks. The people in here want to get the stacks continously tough.

Insco851

Derra wrote: »

Just let it procc on itself.

Nah. No easy mode sorc bs please.

Ps. They buffed AOE damage... might wanna spam one of those while you build whip stacks...

Xvorg

datgladiatah wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

Checkmath wrote: »

Soundinfinite wrote: »

@TrinityBreaker I quickly perused back through what is written, and I don't believe anyone said a Stamina DK was OVERPERFORMING. That wasn't a statement made at all. What was made is, that a skill that uses magicka, and deals flame damage provides better use for a Stamina built player as a buff slot that makes ALL their skills hit much harder without a loss. Thus the intent of giving a Magicka Dk a skill to create DPS power and work in-place of a burst damage skill or execute and a powerful spammable, ends up ineffective and better suited for a Stamina build. Though, Stamina DPS overall in the game is stronger than Magicka DPS on ALL BUILDS save for Stam Sorc vs a Mag Pet Sorc (But Not Mag No-Pet Sorc) in BOTH PVP AND PVE, the Stamina DK itself is NOT OVERPERFORMING compared to other stamina builds...it just leaves the Magicka DK in the dust.

Also @Checkmath as I said before I understand the intent in the skill design, and why they tried to give it to the class, which you reiterated, and as someone who prefers PVP over PVE (I do both but have much more fun PVPing) I get how it can be useful. But again you have missed the point. The ONLY reason Molten Whip becomes the MOST powerful spammable skill in the game is because of the stack. Again, if you simply slotted the skill as a buff (EVEN ON A MAGICKA DK) and used another spammable (Crushing/Force, Imbue, and even a MASTER STAVE Reach) you would get the same bonus damage effect and deal the same massive power hit (At range even). BUT, after throwing the hit, instead of consuming the stack and having to rebuild, you could simply keep the stack and have ALL your skills hit for a much higher amount or throw out multiple hits of the other spammable at the massive damage point. Because the rules are simply that it is on your bar and you activate any 3 Arden Flame abilities...yet the only one that CONSUMES the stack is the Molten Whip itself. Thus, keeping it as buff spot instead of an active ability makes more sense. And thus it is ineffective and counter-intuitive and punishes the user for actually using the skill as a spammable or attack skill.

Well this is not quite right tough. Surely you can keep all the stacks by using another spammable and just slot molten whip as a buff. In that case molten whip serves only one purpose of buffing your damage a bit. But molten whip has an additional purpose of aq very hard hitting burst similar to crystal frag or spectral bow. With elemental weapon or crushing shock you will never reach those high numbers as you can reach with a molten whip (molten whip can reach around double amount of damage of the ones you mentioned thanks to the stacks). It is some kind of minigame, where you give something up for a situational incredible skill. The same happened to the nightbladdes grim focus, where you build up mitigation with its stacks, but whe you release it, you lose the mitigation for huge burst damage. same kind of minigame and I guess the devs like those minigames in some way.

You know? I'm tired of minigames regarding DK playing style. There's a minigame just to land a power lash. There's another minigame related to Battle Roar and resource recovery, anoter on Helping Hands and stam recovery, another while using stone giant on a target without CC immunity, and another on using Inhale and another on Inferno. Not to mention the permablocking minigame related to stam recovery on S/B. Now ZoS added 3 other minigames for DKs: Root immunity, new wings and seething fury. And I really believe it is too much.

Could ZoS just simplify some aspects of the class, or they are really too concerned with the trees that they cannot see the forest? The class has gone from fun and entertaining to really tedious and frustrating.

I'm not against "minigames" (mechanics) but this one ability is just layered in *** and potential punishment that it does exactly as you say, make the character tedious and frustrating. Nothing about "cast three DOT effects on top of each other and over their duration to buff an ability meant to be used consistently" screams fun. Flat benefits aren't really fun either but, at the same time, have an ability that works how you want it to is satisfying. There are many simple ways to handle molten whip (maybe it could do extra damage to a burning target or when an Ardent Flame DoT is active on it) but the ability as it stands is just not fun and puts way more slotting pressure in the mDK than most other classes have to deal with (special note on this, I think Sorc is antifun for the same reason)

Sure, certain minigames are OK, for example spectral bow, or shadow image on NB. Even I consider that seething fury is not a bad move. The problem is that DK is full of minigames and as I said, it makes the class tedious. Not only I have to worry about my Ulti while keeping an eye on resources and tryying to set off balance the guy I'm fighting, but also I must be sure I used 3 AF skill in a row before landing my combo. On top of that I must pay attention to weaving, blocking and dodge rolling if necessary.

Sure, when everything is set up and the combo goes as planned, it is rewarding, but if the guy I'm fighting is semi competitive, he will know when to put a bash to set me "off balance".

Xvorg

Insco851 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

then explain me how do I put pressure with a mDK?

The class that has no othe spammable
the class that has no range oriented passives
the class that must rely on S/B or (ironically) frost staff to take advantage of blocking
The class that has a 2 extra mts on melee range.

Sure, you can put presure with swallow sould/elemental weapon/force shock from 28 mts away, but as a DK I CAN'T do that. I must go melee. Because the max reach any skill i the AF line has is 22mts and that's DKs gap closer/pull. So explain me, do I use pucture as my main spammable? }

I suggest you to try a mDK before making any uninformed comment, comparing NB to DK, because your cmment just reveal you know nothing about what you are talking about.

(By the way, I also play mageblade, and I have ZERO problems weaving and setting spectral bow while using strife)

Xvorg

Checkmath wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Just let it procc on itself.

Hmm so spamming molten whip will guarantee a 33% damage increase on every whip....Still the problem of many here is, that the first whip will consume all three stacks and would only give back one stack. The dots are running anyway scaled on the stacks you had when casting tough, its just reapplying the dots after the whip does not profit from 3 stacks, but only one, when the whip itself procs stacks. The people in here want to get the stacks continously tough.

The other way around, keep seething fury but instead making it proc on whip, make any other dmg DK skill proc it except whip.

That could make interesting the combo chains + inhale + leap and the playing style itself much less tedious.

Also it would buff nicely ranged/healer mDK by using stone giant/obsidian shard or Cinder storm.

A proc on itself could be too strong, while a proc only on AF skills makes it border line pointless

ccmedaddy

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

then explain me how do I put pressure with a mDK?

The class that has no othe spammable
the class that has no range oriented passives
the class that must rely on S/B or (ironically) frost staff to take advantage of blocking
The class that has a 2 extra mts on melee range.

Sure, you can put presure with swallow sould/elemental weapon/force shock from 28 mts away, but as a DK I CAN'T do that. I must go melee. Because the max reach any skill i the AF line has is 22mts and that's DKs gap closer/pull. So explain me, do I use pucture as my main spammable? }

I suggest you to try a mDK before making any uninformed comment, comparing NB to DK, because your cmment just reveal you know nothing about what you are talking about.

(By the way, I also play mageblade, and I have ZERO problems weaving and setting spectral bow while using strife)

Engulfing basically works as a pseudo spammable this patch. I think the new molton whip is fantastic for PvP--it's the PvE application that's problematic.

Insco851

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

then explain me how do I put pressure with a mDK?

The class that has no othe spammable
the class that has no range oriented passives
the class that must rely on S/B or (ironically) frost staff to take advantage of blocking
The class that has a 2 extra mts on melee range.

Sure, you can put presure with swallow sould/elemental weapon/force shock from 28 mts away, but as a DK I CAN'T do that. I must go melee. Because the max reach any skill i the AF line has is 22mts and that's DKs gap closer/pull. So explain me, do I use pucture as my main spammable? }

I suggest you to try a mDK before making any uninformed comment, comparing NB to DK, because your cmment just reveal you know nothing about what you are talking about.

(By the way, I also play mageblade, and I have ZERO problems weaving and setting spectral bow while using strife)

Try the newly buffed aoe’s like I already mentioned.

jaws343

Xvorg wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

jcm2606 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

Lol y’all really think hitting 3 abilities to get a near spec bow sized whip is tough huh.... can magblade get this treatment???

Mind you it’s really only two cuz the ulti counts as one...

You do realise that one is a dedicated damage proc, while the other is a spammable?

You realize you are killing NO ONE by just spamming whip right? It’s also now a dedicated damage proc/burst. It’s a hellova buff. And a needed one. If you want to spam it that’s cool and all but if you want to work on that DK burst... here’s your chance.

then explain me how do I put pressure with a mDK?

The class that has no othe spammable
the class that has no range oriented passives
the class that must rely on S/B or (ironically) frost staff to take advantage of blocking
The class that has a 2 extra mts on melee range.

Sure, you can put presure with swallow sould/elemental weapon/force shock from 28 mts away, but as a DK I CAN'T do that. I must go melee. Because the max reach any skill i the AF line has is 22mts and that's DKs gap closer/pull. So explain me, do I use pucture as my main spammable? }

I suggest you to try a mDK before making any uninformed comment, comparing NB to DK, because your cmment just reveal you know nothing about what you are talking about.

(By the way, I also play mageblade, and I have ZERO problems weaving and setting spectral bow while using strife)

You do realize that every one of those spammables you listed work in melee range. There isn't a minimum distance requirement for them. So yes, as a DK, you can use ele weapon or force shock. Or you can slot the other version of whip that increases damage and is free on off balance.

Insco851

Or don’t worry about max stacks until it’s time to go for the burst. Engulfing/embers are both typical skills slotted.

Engulfing>embers>cc>engulfing>leap>whip

That’s not even much of a change from past combos. 1 extra engulfing? Which could be flames of oblivion also.