POLL: Would you like a global AH as in other games?

navystylz_ESO · June 2019

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

I posted this in the other thread about auction houses. Thought it was apt here as well.

“A global auction house makes everything you fear exponentially worse and easier to exploit.

Using XBox prices “resin” costs just under 7000 gold. There may be too many available to corner the market but let’s, for fun, say that in Mournhold, Elden Root and Rwalka there are a total of 300 resins available for purchase. For 2.1 million gold 1 person could buy all of them and relist them for any price they want. This isn’t happening though because everyone knows that there are other places where 7000 cost resins can be found.

Conversely let’s say that there is a global auction house with 1500 resins available for purchase. That’s 10.5 million in gold which, sad to say, is a sum that hundreds of people have available today.

Let’s even be silly and say that there are 10,000 resins available across the platform. That’s 70 million in gold it would cost. A ridiculous sum that only a handful could muster but those people do exist. A GAH would allow those folks to buy 100% of those resins at cost and then they would control the entire market. You think things are bad now? How about when that person decides that the “fair” price for resins is now 20,000 each? Because THAT is what would happen to every valuable resource in the game.

Anything not deemed worthy of being hoarded would then plummet in price essentially making the vendor cost the likely return on your time. That impen curiass you were selling for 3000, congrats, it’s now worth 58 gold.

Right now the insane leg work required to truly corner a market is what keeps prices stable. Allowing an ESO billionaire to buyout the entire supply of a vital item in the click of one button would have disastrous implications on the “little guy”, not help them.”

There are more than just a handful with the capital to do just this ^

Most assuredly. It appears that some people think there is some sort of honor system that would keep people from doing this, and it’s just simply not the case.

It’s also not even a pipe dream because it is EXACTLY what happens in every sports game’s Ultimate Team mode.

In PS4’s The Show their diamond dynasty mode makes cards diamond level at 85 overall. The price difference between a gold 84 and a diamond 85 is usually a ridiculously wide sum. The best cards - the “endgame gear” if you will - are hoarded by the rich and relisted for an astronomical profit. Same thing happens in all the EA and 2K games.

And those games are ones where more than 90% of the player base accrues all their “gold” in one year. In ESO people have had about 5 years to save up.

Plain and simple ... GAHs drive down the price of good gear to trivial vendor levels and drive up the price of great gear to levels which casual players have no chance of actually affording reasonably.

Honestly, I think the only reason things aren't worse in ESO is because the side grade system. There is no simple BiS bind-on-equip gear which leaves things mostly up to the player to juggle how they want to spread their stats, gear stats and CP. And then the items that do matter, get high prices anyway because it's easy for those guild to manipulate the market.

navystylz_ESO · June 2019

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

It sounds great that Joe Dragon Knight could potentially be able to make 1000 gold on his level 14 hammer. I do not begrudge him at all. The problem is that if he wanted to keep that hammer and make it purple, it would end up costing him magnitudes more gold to do so because some billionaire would have bought up the whole supply of purple upgrade mats. THAT is the problem and what always happens.

Demand will not stop. Supply can be stopped. In a GAH economy that supply can be stopped with 1 push of a button. In today’s environment it requires hours of load screens, coordination and the persistence to do that grind every day. That little bit of pain is what will allow Joe Dragon Knight to upgrade his level 50 hammer to gold for under 100k.

So I ask you, what would you prefer?

Scenario 1 - get 1000 gold for a hammer that would normally only get 58 gold from a vendor but have to pay 10-20 million gold at end game for your real gear or ...

Scenario 2 - get 58 gold from the vendor today and only have to pay 500k gold for your end game gear?

It’s not even close. Scenario 2 is better and what we have today.

Why are people selling all their mats just to buy they back later to upgrade an items they know will need upgrading in this scenario?

With no real BiS gear it's not hard to get something that woks just as good. And for the most part the best can't be sold on the trader anyway. Purple mats are extremely easy to get and gold is where it started getting limited. Purple gear is perfectly fine to do anything you need to collect yellow mats to upgrade your favorite gear.

Also want to know where all the lovely people are who are keeping the market fine and thwarting would-be monopolies? Te moment those prices increase, they are going to try selling at the same huge prices too. I've never actually met someone in game who hasn't gotten price check before selling something. So if you tell them "well they're going 500k now" they aren't going to go, "oh they were 10k last week. I'm going to sell for 10k".

jainiadral · June 2019

tahol10069 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

For sheer convenience -- SWTOR has a really decent model actually with a UI that helps you find what you want.

I was a pretty dedicated trader in SWTOR. I made millions (and spent it all too lol) by crafting and selling materials. After that, ESO's system has been a shock for me, and not a pleasant one. I refused to join a trading guild for a long time, now I'm a member of one (1) with a trader in Wrothgar.

It is pure horse crap. Guild is good, and doesn't put any pressure on you, but it is STILL pure horse crap. I hate this system with passion.

I hate buying anything because it is pure pain in the backside if you try to find something specific. I hate selling because lets face it, THIS market RIGHT NOW is monopolized by big trading guilds that practically own the best traders. Flippers run around collecting cheaper stuff from less popular traders and selling it higher in their popular traders. And at the same time, people defending this system claim that this is exactly what isn't going on but would happen if we would have an Auction House.

Sometimes I feel like I'm in some alternative reality where facts are suddenly turned upside down. Then I remember that many of these people aren't actually acting in good faith, they are just twisting the facts because they are the ones benefitting from this messed up system we have right now.

One global Auction House is a fair system. Everyone can sell, and everyone can buy. It is egual. But there are people who don't want "egual" because unequal benefits them. They have learned how to game the system.

I could go on and on about this but I feel it is futile. It is like people have never played anything else than ESO, and make up some insane theories of rising prices and monopolies just to justify this insane system we have right now.

And socialization...oh please. Being in a trading guild has nothing to do with socialization. It is a forced situation, and I feel like a prisoner even if my jailer is not the worst out there.

Believe me, you're not alone. I've played a number of MMOs with auction houses, and have had pretty much the same experiences you have in all of them. I had the same experience you did in SWTOR, even though I wasn't dedicated. You could do pretty decently if you priced things correctly with a fairly minimal time investment. I never bothered with crafting, just dumping my junk armor, the occasional companion gift, and lots of crafting mats. Making a million might take me a couple of days of gathering as I quested, but it wasn't hard at all.

I did join one of those free trading guilds in ESO. We were constantly losing our trader to bigger guilds. I sold my stuff here, chipped in 5-10K a week, no raffle entry, but it still felt like it was never enough. I'm not a guildie by nature. I'm a lone wolf. I like playing with no actual commitments, including psychological or social obligations. Boy, did that guild ever turn into on obligation! It started out super chill, but as competition intensified, I'd log in to face a, "YOU'D BETTER CONTRIBUTE OR YOU'LL BE KICKED" message of the day. They wanted donations to make a guild hall with crafting stations on top of it all-- why, when we couldn't even keep a trader?

After a while, I stopped wanting to log in. I'd have to force myself, especially if I didn't feel like listing things when we actually DID get a trader. Sometimes, I just want to be able to chillax for a day or two and quest. Put the crap in the bank for a bit, then sell when I was in the mood.

Guildies started deserting in droves. I held on because... reasons

Inertia being the biggest. And I did feel for our GM. He was busting his butt trying to keep us tradered-up and he was a genuinely nice and helpful person. He'd constantly end up apologizing in guild chat after we lost our trader. I can't blame him for raising the stakes a little.

It felt great to quit and opt out of the system entirely. I buy minor stuff from time to time like those repair kits you get from writs. Maybe a pet if I can find the runebox or component parts. That takes enormous force of will. The thought, for example, of finding nine more Alfiq mummified parts for the Elsweyr pet among all of Tamriel's traders makes me want to hurl. After chasing missing pieces on TTC for a while, then finding out they're not even located in the zone at any other trader, I want to log out. This stuff is not fun. It's stressful and it's a needlessly annoying waste of time.

navystylz_ESO · June 2019

Then why aren't those players doing it then? Could it be because what you say is not true?

I'd be willing to bet is because it's not smart to do, rather than the inability to do. Someone has more gold than they need, why are they going to destroy the economy for fun? I guarantee you when something new and shinny shows up in the market they will control that to make a massive profit, before letting the market do what it will again.

The ONLY time you will ever see whale intention destroy the economy so no one participates is in a hardcore pvp game, where destroying the market will destroy the competition. If you have billions of gold why on earth would you break the game for no reason?

navystylz_ESO · June 2019

jainiadral wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

For sheer convenience -- SWTOR has a really decent model actually with a UI that helps you find what you want.

I was a pretty dedicated trader in SWTOR. I made millions (and spent it all too lol) by crafting and selling materials. After that, ESO's system has been a shock for me, and not a pleasant one. I refused to join a trading guild for a long time, now I'm a member of one (1) with a trader in Wrothgar.

It is pure horse crap. Guild is good, and doesn't put any pressure on you, but it is STILL pure horse crap. I hate this system with passion.

I hate buying anything because it is pure pain in the backside if you try to find something specific. I hate selling because lets face it, THIS market RIGHT NOW is monopolized by big trading guilds that practically own the best traders. Flippers run around collecting cheaper stuff from less popular traders and selling it higher in their popular traders. And at the same time, people defending this system claim that this is exactly what isn't going on but would happen if we would have an Auction House.

Sometimes I feel like I'm in some alternative reality where facts are suddenly turned upside down. Then I remember that many of these people aren't actually acting in good faith, they are just twisting the facts because they are the ones benefitting from this messed up system we have right now.

One global Auction House is a fair system. Everyone can sell, and everyone can buy. It is egual. But there are people who don't want "egual" because unequal benefits them. They have learned how to game the system.

I could go on and on about this but I feel it is futile. It is like people have never played anything else than ESO, and make up some insane theories of rising prices and monopolies just to justify this insane system we have right now.

And socialization...oh please. Being in a trading guild has nothing to do with socialization. It is a forced situation, and I feel like a prisoner even if my jailer is not the worst out there.

Believe me, you're not alone. I've played a number of MMOs with auction houses, and have had pretty much the same experiences you have in all of them. I had the same experience you did in SWTOR, even though I wasn't dedicated. You could do pretty decently if you priced things correctly with a fairly minimal time investment. I never bothered with crafting, just dumping my junk armor, the occasional companion gift, and lots of crafting mats. Making a million might take me a couple of days of gathering as I quested, but it wasn't hard at all.

I did join one of those free trading guilds in ESO. We were constantly losing our trader to bigger guilds. I sold my stuff here, chipped in 5-10K a week, no raffle entry, but it still felt like it was never enough. I'm not a guildie by nature. I'm a lone wolf. I like playing with no actual commitments, including psychological or social obligations. Boy, did that guild ever turn into on obligation! It started out super chill, but as competition intensified, I'd log in to face a, "YOU'D BETTER CONTRIBUTE OR YOU'LL BE KICKED" message of the day. They wanted donations to make a guild hall with crafting stations on top of it all-- why, when we couldn't even keep a trader?

After a while, I stopped wanting to log in. I'd have to force myself, especially if I didn't feel like listing things when we actually DID get a trader. Sometimes, I just want to be able to chillax for a day or two and quest. Put the crap in the bank for a bit, then sell when I was in the mood.

Guildies started deserting in droves. I held on because... reasons Inertia being the biggest. And I did feel for our GM. He was busting his butt trying to keep us tradered-up and he was a genuinely nice and helpful person. He'd constantly end up apologizing in guild chat after we lost our trader. I can't blame him for raising the stakes a little.

It felt great to quit and opt out of the system entirely. I buy minor stuff from time to time like those repair kits you get from writs. Maybe a pet if I can find the runebox or component parts. That takes enormous force of will. The thought, for example, of finding nine more Alfiq mummified parts for the Elsweyr pet among all of Tamriel's traders makes me want to hurl. After chasing missing pieces on TTC for a while, then finding out they're not even located in the zone at any other trader, I want to log out. This stuff is not fun. It's stressful and it's a needlessly annoying waste of time.

I've seen this myself. No game should force this kind of crap on the players trying to enjoy the game. And all the excuses except for it takes a lot of gold out of the economy is ludicrous, are already happening anyway, or is bypassed by addons.

Like several people have already stated. Most MMOs I've played had a central AH and I've never experienced any issues buying what I wanted, or selling things. The most overpriced things were the most rare, non-essential fluff items that were nice to have but not required to play the game.

Like in GW2. I don't care what Chak infusion prices are, because no cosmetic is worth that price to me. More power to those they are, but it's not required for my gameplay. Nightfury skin, also expensive, I worked on and farmed and created myself and felt good having it and accomplished. Things I actually NEEDED to play the game, were always a price I was easily willing to pay.

Massacre_Wurm · June 2019

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

jainiadral wrote: »

tahol10069 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

For sheer convenience -- SWTOR has a really decent model actually with a UI that helps you find what you want.

I was a pretty dedicated trader in SWTOR. I made millions (and spent it all too lol) by crafting and selling materials. After that, ESO's system has been a shock for me, and not a pleasant one. I refused to join a trading guild for a long time, now I'm a member of one (1) with a trader in Wrothgar.

It is pure horse crap. Guild is good, and doesn't put any pressure on you, but it is STILL pure horse crap. I hate this system with passion.

I hate buying anything because it is pure pain in the backside if you try to find something specific. I hate selling because lets face it, THIS market RIGHT NOW is monopolized by big trading guilds that practically own the best traders. Flippers run around collecting cheaper stuff from less popular traders and selling it higher in their popular traders. And at the same time, people defending this system claim that this is exactly what isn't going on but would happen if we would have an Auction House.

Sometimes I feel like I'm in some alternative reality where facts are suddenly turned upside down. Then I remember that many of these people aren't actually acting in good faith, they are just twisting the facts because they are the ones benefitting from this messed up system we have right now.

One global Auction House is a fair system. Everyone can sell, and everyone can buy. It is egual. But there are people who don't want "egual" because unequal benefits them. They have learned how to game the system.

I could go on and on about this but I feel it is futile. It is like people have never played anything else than ESO, and make up some insane theories of rising prices and monopolies just to justify this insane system we have right now.

And socialization...oh please. Being in a trading guild has nothing to do with socialization. It is a forced situation, and I feel like a prisoner even if my jailer is not the worst out there.

Believe me, you're not alone. I've played a number of MMOs with auction houses, and have had pretty much the same experiences you have in all of them. I had the same experience you did in SWTOR, even though I wasn't dedicated. You could do pretty decently if you priced things correctly with a fairly minimal time investment. I never bothered with crafting, just dumping my junk armor, the occasional companion gift, and lots of crafting mats. Making a million might take me a couple of days of gathering as I quested, but it wasn't hard at all.

I did join one of those free trading guilds in ESO. We were constantly losing our trader to bigger guilds. I sold my stuff here, chipped in 5-10K a week, no raffle entry, but it still felt like it was never enough. I'm not a guildie by nature. I'm a lone wolf. I like playing with no actual commitments, including psychological or social obligations. Boy, did that guild ever turn into on obligation! It started out super chill, but as competition intensified, I'd log in to face a, "YOU'D BETTER CONTRIBUTE OR YOU'LL BE KICKED" message of the day. They wanted donations to make a guild hall with crafting stations on top of it all-- why, when we couldn't even keep a trader?

After a while, I stopped wanting to log in. I'd have to force myself, especially if I didn't feel like listing things when we actually DID get a trader. Sometimes, I just want to be able to chillax for a day or two and quest. Put the crap in the bank for a bit, then sell when I was in the mood.

Guildies started deserting in droves. I held on because... reasons Inertia being the biggest. And I did feel for our GM. He was busting his butt trying to keep us tradered-up and he was a genuinely nice and helpful person. He'd constantly end up apologizing in guild chat after we lost our trader. I can't blame him for raising the stakes a little.

It felt great to quit and opt out of the system entirely. I buy minor stuff from time to time like those repair kits you get from writs. Maybe a pet if I can find the runebox or component parts. That takes enormous force of will. The thought, for example, of finding nine more Alfiq mummified parts for the Elsweyr pet among all of Tamriel's traders makes me want to hurl. After chasing missing pieces on TTC for a while, then finding out they're not even located in the zone at any other trader, I want to log out. This stuff is not fun. It's stressful and it's a needlessly annoying waste of time.

I've seen this myself. No game should force this kind of crap on the players trying to enjoy the game. And all the excuses except for it takes a lot of gold out of the economy is ludicrous, are already happening anyway, or is bypassed by addons.

So who exaclty forcing you to joing trading guild ? Personally i enoying riding and searching for item i want or lower prices.
But this is not an argument.

OmniDo · June 2019

navystylz_ESO wrote: »

If you have billions of gold why on earth would you break the game for no reason?

For the same reason anyone does anything: "Because they can."

Uryel · June 2019

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

Jayman1000 · June 2019

Uryel wrote: »

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

No one in their right mind uses TTC to check average pricing. You use MM and base on actual sales in the guilds you are a member of. And no, a single huge listing wont skew average prices in MM because you can enable an "ignore outliers" option so it will be ignored. It is still possible to do some price manipulation, but you have to keep the price low enough for the function not to ignore it, which drastically decreases the effectiveness. Meanwhile you are losing ~8% in fees of the price to achieve it. And a clever seller will still see through this manipulation and set price accordingly. Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand.

The large guilds don't "cut off" other from getting a trader. Obviously the good traders will get huge bids from the largest and most successful guilds, but what is wrong with that exactly? The other guilds that you talk of, I guess smaller and much less successful guilds, can just buy traders somewhere else. And yes it wont be in a prime central location, but hey, beggars cant be choosers.

Eiagra · June 2019

I like the decentralized system we currently have, but it would be nice if I didn't have to rely on third-party apps like Master Merchant and Tamriel Trade Centre in order to search them for what I need, only to get to the shop and find it's gone. I get little enough time to play the game as it is, replicating "Tamriel at The Mall" is not exactly the experience I go in for.

I mean, not unless they're going to install an Orange Julius and a Panera Bread in Daggerfall.

And no, "just pay an arm and a leg at Rawl'kha" isn't a solution -- see "I get little enough time to play" -- since that means I'm not building resources as quickly and thus need to be frugal.

OrphanHelgen · June 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

This again?

No.

My reasons behind spoiler for length.
There's lots of reasons why not.

For one, ZOS designed ESO for a more decentralized market. One of their concerns at launch was that in an Auction House situation, it becomes very easy to acquire the beat gear very cheaply. They also wanted to encourage the different pricing at different guilds, specifically citing that you could go to different guilds to find cheaper prices.

Second, the spread out nature of ESO's guild traders makes it harder to manipulate prices over the whole market for a long time. Not impossible, but harder. When I see market manipulation happen, and I've got examples of it in mind if I need to explain further, it's typically for a few, rare items and only for a relatively short span of time. That's because most people simply can't put the effort in to stay on top of ESO's spread out market for more than short-term profit. Auction houses and centralized listings make that much easier to find items and control pricing, and that's actually something we see with TTC and even MM with price manipulation and TTC allowing players to quickly buy up bargains for resale.

Third, the current guild centric system benefits the social system of the game, which is primarily focused around Guilds. One of the strongest suggestions in favor of a central auction house is that then players don't have to join guilds or use zone chat to trade. The counter argument is that ZOS desires players to be in guilds for many reasons, and just made it easier for you to find a trading guild that fits your needs with Guild Finder.
A. guilds, even trading guilds, are a place where players can form strong social bonds and do a variety of content together. My first trading guild did PVE and PVP and offered help with crafting, and is a large part of why I PVP for the Pact now. As many group dungeon players can attest, runs done with guildies are usually better than random PUGs. I've never been in a trading guild that didnt have some social interaction, whether dungeon runs, trivia contests, or just an Auction, so I can see where even serious trading guilds help players engage in the social aspects of an MMO RPG.
B. Trading guilds are a huge gold sink for the economy because of the weekly trader bid. Gold sinks are essential if ESO's economy is to avoid extreme inflation, and the individual sale taxes dont account for near as much gold as those weekly trader bids. Players wanting an Auction House need to consider what alternate gold sinks they want to introduce to combat inflation.

So I think there's a strong argument to be made that the status quo serves ZOS' needs and desires for ESO better than an Auction House or centralized listing system.

My challenge for anyone arguing in favor of the Auction House or globalized system is to answer there points?
A. How is your desired system better at maintaining ZOS'original desire to prevent powerful items from becoming very cheap and easy to get?

B. How is your desired system better at preventing large scale, long term market manipulation?

C. How is your desired system better at providing the social and economic benefits that guilds bring to ESO?

Tamriel trade centre is kind of like auction house tho. People search there then go to the guild trader. And tbh, running around checking guild traders and endless loading screens and bugged addons and what not is not fun.
Also the argument about trading guilds are a reason u got group and friends, is kind of same argument as why smoking is good because it make people go out and talk to each other. If you have social problems, don't blame that on the AH. In fact in my point of view, trading guilds are the reason why I'm not in more group and social guilds in the first place because everyone needs a trading guild. If I didnt need a trading guild, I would have joined a guild that do raid and group content, but now I have to say no because I dont have guild spot for example.

stritzi · June 2019

Maybe a regional searchmode

Arrodisia · June 2019

[

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

No one in their right mind uses TTC to check average pricing. You use MM and base on actual sales in the guilds you are a member of. And no, a single huge listing wont skew average prices in MM because you can enable an "ignore outliers" option so it will be ignored. It is still possible to do some price manipulation, but you have to keep the price low enough for the function not to ignore it, which drastically decreases the effectiveness. Meanwhile you are losing ~8% in fees of the price to achieve it. And a clever seller will still see through this manipulation and set price accordingly. Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand.

The large guilds don't "cut off" other from getting a trader. Obviously the good traders will get huge bids from the largest and most successful guilds, but what is wrong with that exactly? The other guilds that you talk of, I guess smaller and much less successful guilds, can just buy traders somewhere else. And yes it wont be in a prime central location, but hey, beggars cant be choosers.

Actually, larger guilds do take vendors from other trade guilds, with their freshly created sister guilds. MM is no better than TTC, when you still have people buying their own overpriced items to set the prices for all of their later sales. The system has already been manipulated, and it's been getting worse, because ZOS didn't change anything for the better. GM's are pretty open about it in the game. The only people in this thread pretending there is nothing wrong with the current system, or pretending it's a minor issue are the people who benefit directly from the spread of the corruption.

It will take a lot of fixing or another system (adjusted of course) to replace the current vendor system. Being a money sink is not a valid reason to keep the old system in place. ZOS should be creating more items (mounts, pets, variety of cosmetics, ........) to put into the game economy, instead of into the crown market anyway.

THEDKEXPERIENCE · June 2019

We really need to separate this entire forum into PC and console answers, but since that’s never going to happen let me scream like a child to get everyone’s attention ...

THE PC AND CONSOLE ECONOMIES ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE THINGS THAT HAVE ALMOST NOTHING IN COMMON!!!!

CONSOLES DO NOT HAVE ADD-ONS! CONSOLE PLAYERS HAVE VERY FEW MMOS AVAILABLE SO MANY OF THEM COME FROM SPORTS GAMES OR OTHER GENRES THAT YOU WOULD NOT NORMALLY ASSOCIATE WITH MMOS!!

WHAT YOU MAY HAVE SEEN IN AN ECONOMY FOR SOME “HARDCORE” MMO HAS LESS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE ECONOMIES THEN WHAT HAPPENS ON CURRENT CONSOLE GAMES!!

IF A GAH WAS INSTALLED THE MARKET WOULD BE DESTROYED FOR ALL UPGRADE MATS AND NO, A VAST MAJORITY OF CONSOLE PLAYERS AREN’T FARMING ENOUGH TO SUPPORT IGNORING THE MARKET!!!

Sorry for yelling. I know many of you are coming at this from a good point but I’ve been battling this for years and across a half dozen console GAH economies. All they do is trivialize good gear and make great gear insanely expensive.

Kalik_Gold · June 2019

Put a "Assistant in Crown Store" - Stibbons

Stibbons can see all items in all current traders (guilds without traders of course will not be seen). This is a non-needed assistant for the people that cry pay-to-win, as they can still travel to all of the Guild Traders if they do not purchase him.

Having this in your Guild Hall would be great, IMO.

@Zos - You're welcome, I take commission at 3% in crowns.

barney2525 · June 2019

Sylvermynx wrote: »

Yes, I want one. This current system is totally inaccessible without messing with guilds, and I don't DO guilds. Especially for something that should be available to every player. This is the most whacked system I've ever run across....

Fortunately you don't have to use the system here to make gold. If that was the case, I wouldn't still be playing.

Well, I think this is the key for me, right here. It's not an issue for me, either way because you can just do things and produce gold. I've played both types. Global AH can easily skrugee a character who has been depending on prices to remain at a general level. There is no looking for bargains in a GAH. On the other hand, a GAH Will have whatever item you are looking for. In our current Guild System the player has no idea which guild store even Has what they want. So you go store to store to store just hoping to find your item.

So there's give and take.

FlopsyPrince · June 2019

Juju_beans wrote: »

No thanks. A single AH leads to item monopolies and price fixing.

I hear this charge made, but I don't see it. Have many of you who claim that ever played under a central AH system?

Cornering the market is harder than you would think. And so what even if they do? Doing so now is not as hard, especially if they hit all the "main" cities on a regular basis. Who is going to travel to a remote guild vendor to see if they might possibly have something for sale at a better price? A few may, but I would rather do other things in the game than just run around in a largely fruitless effort.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · June 2019

the reason why eso is special is cuz its not copy/paste other games...so no.

majulook · June 2019

I am on NA PC and I see no reason that to change from what it is. Any type of Global Auction House even just a ability to lookup every item for sale from one location would IMHO a horrible mistake.

Global Auction Houses cause more manipulative pricing, and would remove the biggest gold sink from the game. This would cause a vast melt down of the economy, leading to higher prices for the most wanted items and lead to more bot farming, and price fixing.

FlopsyPrince · June 2019

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

the reason why eso is special is cuz its not copy/paste other games...so no.

Wow, such logic.

That argument could be made against almost any part of ESO.

Jayman1000 · June 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

[

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

No one in their right mind uses TTC to check average pricing. You use MM and base on actual sales in the guilds you are a member of. And no, a single huge listing wont skew average prices in MM because you can enable an "ignore outliers" option so it will be ignored. It is still possible to do some price manipulation, but you have to keep the price low enough for the function not to ignore it, which drastically decreases the effectiveness. Meanwhile you are losing ~8% in fees of the price to achieve it. And a clever seller will still see through this manipulation and set price accordingly. Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand.

The large guilds don't "cut off" other from getting a trader. Obviously the good traders will get huge bids from the largest and most successful guilds, but what is wrong with that exactly? The other guilds that you talk of, I guess smaller and much less successful guilds, can just buy traders somewhere else. And yes it wont be in a prime central location, but hey, beggars cant be choosers.

Actually, larger guilds do take vendors from other trade guilds, with their freshly created sister guilds. MM is no better than TTC, when you still have people buying their own overpriced items to set the prices for all of their later sales.

But they are not preventing those other guilds from getting a trader, which was the the argument that Uryel was making when she said "cut others from traders ". I don't follow your point. Are you criticizing that it's possible to win a bid on a trader? Because naturally when one guild wins another guild loses...

Of course MM is better than TTC to get average pricing, what are you talking about. TTC is just listings, while MM is actual sales. As I said you cant just buy up your own hugely overpriced items because MM can ignore outliers, so the effect wont be so much, you'll have to choose a price within the limit. And additionally, as I also said before, a clever seller can see through this anyway. MM even includes a function for blacklisting players if you spot them often selling overpriced items. And as I also said: Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand. that doesn't mean manipulation can't or don't happen, but the current system does limit it a lot, especially when you compare it to basically any other system suggested.

Arrodisia · June 2019

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

We really need to separate this entire forum into PC and console answers, but since that’s never going to happen let me scream like a child to get everyone’s attention ...

THE PC AND CONSOLE ECONOMIES ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE THINGS THAT HAVE ALMOST NOTHING IN COMMON!!!!

CONSOLES DO NOT HAVE ADD-ONS! CONSOLE PLAYERS HAVE VERY FEW MMOS AVAILABLE SO MANY OF THEM COME FROM SPORTS GAMES OR OTHER GENRES THAT YOU WOULD NOT NORMALLY ASSOCIATE WITH MMOS!!

WHAT YOU MAY HAVE SEEN IN AN ECONOMY FOR SOME “HARDCORE” MMO HAS LESS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE ECONOMIES THEN WHAT HAPPENS ON CURRENT CONSOLE GAMES!!

IF A GAH WAS INSTALLED THE MARKET WOULD BE DESTROYED FOR ALL UPGRADE MATS AND NO, A VAST MAJORITY OF CONSOLE PLAYERS AREN’T FARMING ENOUGH TO SUPPORT IGNORING THE MARKET!!!

Sorry for yelling. I know many of you are coming at this from a good point but I’ve been battling this for years and across a half dozen console GAH economies. All they do is trivialize good gear and make great gear insanely expensive.

The economy would not be destroyed by an adjusted AH. More players would be selling their items at more competitive prices. An adjusted AH would be better than the current system imo. An adjusted auction house would limit ridiculous amounts from being bought up at any one time. It would be more profitable and beneficial for a larger amount of players buying and selling rather than just large guilds only. a large enough portion of system is flawed and players take advantage of it. So what, if you don't have addons? Addons certainly aren't the only source of corruption in the system by far. There is zero reason to yell into this thread to falsely advertise something most players already know isn't true.

Jayman1000 · June 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

We really need to separate this entire forum into PC and console answers, but since that’s never going to happen let me scream like a child to get everyone’s attention ...

THE PC AND CONSOLE ECONOMIES ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE THINGS THAT HAVE ALMOST NOTHING IN COMMON!!!!

CONSOLES DO NOT HAVE ADD-ONS! CONSOLE PLAYERS HAVE VERY FEW MMOS AVAILABLE SO MANY OF THEM COME FROM SPORTS GAMES OR OTHER GENRES THAT YOU WOULD NOT NORMALLY ASSOCIATE WITH MMOS!!

WHAT YOU MAY HAVE SEEN IN AN ECONOMY FOR SOME “HARDCORE” MMO HAS LESS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE ECONOMIES THEN WHAT HAPPENS ON CURRENT CONSOLE GAMES!!

IF A GAH WAS INSTALLED THE MARKET WOULD BE DESTROYED FOR ALL UPGRADE MATS AND NO, A VAST MAJORITY OF CONSOLE PLAYERS AREN’T FARMING ENOUGH TO SUPPORT IGNORING THE MARKET!!!

Sorry for yelling. I know many of you are coming at this from a good point but I’ve been battling this for years and across a half dozen console GAH economies. All they do is trivialize good gear and make great gear insanely expensive.

The economy would not be destroyed by an adjusted AH. More players would be selling their items at more competitive prices. An adjusted AH would be better than the current system imo. An adjusted auction house would limit ridiculous amounts from being bought up at any one time. It would be more profitable and beneficial for a larger amount of players buying and selling rather than just large guilds only. a large enough portion of system is flawed and players take advantage of it. So what, if you don't have addons? Addons certainly aren't the only source of corruption in the system by far. There is zero reason to yell into this thread to falsely advertise something most players already know isn't true.

What the deuce is an "adjusted" auction house?

majulook · June 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

What the deuce is an "adjusted" auction house?

This is just a term that allows for the creator of it to modify the way the "Auction house" would work to what they need to be able to argue their point of view.

Jayman1000 · June 2019

majulook wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

What the deuce is an "adjusted" auction house?

This is just a term that allows for the creator of it to modify the way the "Auction house" would work to what they need to be able to argue their point of view.

So, kinda like a plot device for forum debaters?

Arrodisia · June 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

[

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

No one in their right mind uses TTC to check average pricing. You use MM and base on actual sales in the guilds you are a member of. And no, a single huge listing wont skew average prices in MM because you can enable an "ignore outliers" option so it will be ignored. It is still possible to do some price manipulation, but you have to keep the price low enough for the function not to ignore it, which drastically decreases the effectiveness. Meanwhile you are losing ~8% in fees of the price to achieve it. And a clever seller will still see through this manipulation and set price accordingly. Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand.

The large guilds don't "cut off" other from getting a trader. Obviously the good traders will get huge bids from the largest and most successful guilds, but what is wrong with that exactly? The other guilds that you talk of, I guess smaller and much less successful guilds, can just buy traders somewhere else. And yes it wont be in a prime central location, but hey, beggars cant be choosers.

Actually, larger guilds do take vendors from other trade guilds, with their freshly created sister guilds. MM is no better than TTC, when you still have people buying their own overpriced items to set the prices for all of their later sales.

But they are not preventing those other guilds from getting a trader, which was the the argument that Uryel was making when she said "cut others from traders ". I don't follow your point. Are you criticizing that it's possible to win a bid on a trader? Because naturally when one guild wins another guild loses...

Of course MM is better than TTC to get average pricing, what are you talking about. TTC is just listings, while MM is actual sales. As I said you cant just buy up your own hugely overpriced items because MM can ignore outliers, so the effect wont be so much, you'll have to choose a price within the limit. And additionally, as I also said before, a clever seller can see through this anyway. MM even includes a function for blacklisting players if you spot them often selling overpriced items. And as I also said: Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand. that doesn't mean manipulation can't or don't happen, but the current system does limit it a lot, especially when you compare it to basically any other system suggested.

Maybe you didn't read the entire thread, or the other related threads on all of these topics. They can buy an entire area up just to let you know you are screwed, and it's been done already. So my point is pretty clear.

MM doesn't ignore the highest sales unless enough time has passed that it is left out, and that won't happen because they just sell another one to themselves at that price and boom the price is backup. They make so much more on the next sales of that item. So much that it more than compensates for the pitance they put out to buy it from themselves. Thanks to the pts people know exactly what is going to sell each quarter and they figure out how to corner and/or manipulate it before it is even live. Anyone can see that. Black listing which rarely ever happens in mm since they want the prices to remain high. Shady dealings behind the scenes, price manipulation, mass buy outs......... are huge factors in the current system. That wouldn't happen if the system weren't so easy to manipulate and if limits were set in place.

Arrodisia · June 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

We really need to separate this entire forum into PC and console answers, but since that’s never going to happen let me scream like a child to get everyone’s attention ...

THE PC AND CONSOLE ECONOMIES ARE COMPLETELY SEPARATE THINGS THAT HAVE ALMOST NOTHING IN COMMON!!!!

CONSOLES DO NOT HAVE ADD-ONS! CONSOLE PLAYERS HAVE VERY FEW MMOS AVAILABLE SO MANY OF THEM COME FROM SPORTS GAMES OR OTHER GENRES THAT YOU WOULD NOT NORMALLY ASSOCIATE WITH MMOS!!

WHAT YOU MAY HAVE SEEN IN AN ECONOMY FOR SOME “HARDCORE” MMO HAS LESS TO DO WITH WHAT HAPPENS TO ALL GLOBAL AUCTION HOUSE ECONOMIES THEN WHAT HAPPENS ON CURRENT CONSOLE GAMES!!

IF A GAH WAS INSTALLED THE MARKET WOULD BE DESTROYED FOR ALL UPGRADE MATS AND NO, A VAST MAJORITY OF CONSOLE PLAYERS AREN’T FARMING ENOUGH TO SUPPORT IGNORING THE MARKET!!!

Sorry for yelling. I know many of you are coming at this from a good point but I’ve been battling this for years and across a half dozen console GAH economies. All they do is trivialize good gear and make great gear insanely expensive.

The economy would not be destroyed by an adjusted AH. More players would be selling their items at more competitive prices. An adjusted AH would be better than the current system imo. An adjusted auction house would limit ridiculous amounts from being bought up at any one time. It would be more profitable and beneficial for a larger amount of players buying and selling rather than just large guilds only. a large enough portion of system is flawed and players take advantage of it. So what, if you don't have addons? Addons certainly aren't the only source of corruption in the system by far. There is zero reason to yell into this thread to falsely advertise something most players already know isn't true.

What the deuce is an "adjusted" auction house?

If you read the entire thread, it had already been suggested. It is an auction house with limits in place to safeguard the vast majority of the economy itself.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · June 2019

Wow! 7 pages and no meme yet?? Well, here we go!!!

Just my 2 Drakes on a few things.~
1. Many, many guilds do not charge dues, even big ones. I am PCNA and member of a couple big trade guilds and zero fees.
2. Who remembers BEFORE we had guild kiosks how buying and selling was like!!!
3. Other MMO's like WoW run with shards. A AH in ESO would be like taking all 100+ shards and putting them in one. Meaning you would have hundreds of thousands of listings that the server must process, think of the lag then, plus the time looking.
4. AH makes cornering the market on a item possible. It is literally impossible to do this in ESO. If I wanted to corner the Resin market I would have to travel to 200+ kiosks and then only be able to sell them in 5 kiosks. Not happening.
5. This is ESO. Not WoW. Not SWOTR. ZoS did not want another copy/paste game and Im glad for that.
6. And I guess the most important point is.... ZoS has said, time and time again, the current system is here to stay, so wanting it other wise is a moot point.

Huzzah!!!

Arrodisia · June 2019

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Wow! 7 pages and no meme yet?? Well, here we go!!!

Just my 2 Drakes on a few things.~
1. Many, many guilds do not charge dues, even big ones. I am PCNA and member of a couple big trade guilds and zero fees.
2. Who remembers BEFORE we had guild kiosks how buying and selling was like!!!
3. Other MMO's like WoW run with shards. A AH in ESO would be like taking all 100+ shards and putting them in one. Meaning you would have hundreds of thousands of listings that the server must process, think of the lag then, plus the time looking.
4. AH makes cornering the market on a item possible. It is literally impossible to do this in ESO. If I wanted to corner the Resin market I would have to travel to 200+ kiosks and then only be able to sell them in 5 kiosks. Not happening.
5. This is ESO. Not WoW. Not SWOTR. ZoS did not want another copy/paste game and Im glad for that.
6. And I guess the most important point is.... ZoS has said, time and time again, the current system is here to stay, so wanting it other wise is a moot point.

Huzzah!!!

and yet so far off since

1. Trading wouldn't go back to buying and selling in the chat
2. Some guilds don't charge fees and most of those don't stay around long or end up charging fees / asking for many donations a bit later
3. Being you wouldn't have a bunch of unnnecessary addons as compensation, the lag/performance would pretty much be the same. Not to mention, if other games can do it with minimum lag. So can ZOS.
4. Adjusting an auction house with limits would make it nearly impossible to corner the market on any one item
5. Yes this is ESO and ZOS can create a better version of an AH than ever existed if they put their minds to it. There doesn't need to be a copy paste at all
6. ZOS has said a lot of things and changed their minds, because it would be better for the player base and this could end up being one of those topics.

You're absolutely welcome !

I'll give you one thing the meme was cute, just a bit out of place in this thread. Just off the top of my head, these memes popped up during the whole sorc shield debate, and look. The sorc shield ended up fixed to not be a cast.

Jayman1000 · June 2019

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

[

Jayman1000 wrote: »

Uryel wrote: »

Current system is inconvenient.

Sure, the game needs a money sink, I get that. But all arguments on how it's better to avoid price manipulation are moot.

There are large guilds, or congregation of guilds, that can muster so much money they actually cut others from traders by simply placing enormous bids just to have a trader to sell next week. There are addons that let you know the listed prices pretty much anywhere, meaning that price manipulmation IS easy as ever : just list at overpriced value, and TTC will return a slightly too high average. Don't believe me ? Simple experience.

999 people earn 1000 bucks a month. 1 person earns 1 000 000 a month. What is the average income for those 1000 people ? Instinctlively you'd think it's a lil' bit over 1000, but it's actually 1999.

It only takes ONE stupidly high listing to inflate the average. Or a few not-so-stupidly-high listings, if you want it to be less obvious. Now, transfer that to less listed items. Done, you've manipulated the market. Congo rats. People now believe that the average price is right, and that your listing is a bargain, even though you're selling at twice the proper rate.

Won't work with people who know their sh*t, but works for the vast majority.

No one in their right mind uses TTC to check average pricing. You use MM and base on actual sales in the guilds you are a member of. And no, a single huge listing wont skew average prices in MM because you can enable an "ignore outliers" option so it will be ignored. It is still possible to do some price manipulation, but you have to keep the price low enough for the function not to ignore it, which drastically decreases the effectiveness. Meanwhile you are losing ~8% in fees of the price to achieve it. And a clever seller will still see through this manipulation and set price accordingly. Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand.

The large guilds don't "cut off" other from getting a trader. Obviously the good traders will get huge bids from the largest and most successful guilds, but what is wrong with that exactly? The other guilds that you talk of, I guess smaller and much less successful guilds, can just buy traders somewhere else. And yes it wont be in a prime central location, but hey, beggars cant be choosers.

Actually, larger guilds do take vendors from other trade guilds, with their freshly created sister guilds. MM is no better than TTC, when you still have people buying their own overpriced items to set the prices for all of their later sales.

But they are not preventing those other guilds from getting a trader, which was the the argument that Uryel was making when she said "cut others from traders ". I don't follow your point. Are you criticizing that it's possible to win a bid on a trader? Because naturally when one guild wins another guild loses...

Of course MM is better than TTC to get average pricing, what are you talking about. TTC is just listings, while MM is actual sales. As I said you cant just buy up your own hugely overpriced items because MM can ignore outliers, so the effect wont be so much, you'll have to choose a price within the limit. And additionally, as I also said before, a clever seller can see through this anyway. MM even includes a function for blacklisting players if you spot them often selling overpriced items. And as I also said: Price manipulation CANNOT change the fundamentals of supply and demand. that doesn't mean manipulation can't or don't happen, but the current system does limit it a lot, especially when you compare it to basically any other system suggested.

Maybe you didn't read the entire thread, or the other related threads on all of these topics. They can buy an entire area up just to let you know you are screwed, and it's been done already. So my point is pretty clear.

Not really? I trade every day in the largest guilds in PC NA. I really dont see these huge buy outs and resells that you are talking about. I do see a lot of players selling goods for cheaps, and those goods do get bought up quickly, but that is hardly surprising, in any market underpriced goods get bought by anyone super fast. But compared to the listings with same goods that stay up to a day or more in the store due to being higher priced, there is no profit gain there, or only very tiny profit gain (like 1-2% which is not worth it, especially not if it is resellers that also have to spend 8% on manipulation), so it can't be the same ones reselling, that is unlikely.

juttaa77b16_ESO wrote: »

MM doesn't ignore the highest sales unless enough time has passed that it is left out,

Sounds like you are using a different MM than me, my MM do filter out any higher bid, time is not a prerequisite. There are few odd exceptions where a crazy outlier isn't filtered away for whatever reason, but they are really rare. Again, I also repeat that a clever seller can quite easily spot manipulative sales and then adjust his price accordingly or even choose to blacklist that seller.

There's a further dimension here. You can setup three different time ranges, and change the price graph one the fly with hotkeys. That way it is pretty easy to quickly get an idea of the correct average price even if there is manipulative artificial sales in there. You are making this issue much much larger than it is. Comparing the problems of price manipulations and buyouts in the current system with the problems in a global AH is ridiculously skewed.