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This might be a big mistake, but I really want to say respect to ZOS for representation in this game
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
You have no idea what I did in the quest, nor if I read through it or not.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.
Wow... you really didnt read the quest text one bit...
Your explanation for the quest clearly tells me one thing: It is a quest that revolves around that dude. Any way you cut it, it is very much a quest that has him in the forefront.
By the way, I feel relieved that no one has tried to dox me yet because I am "Misgendering" a digital character. At least people can be credited for some normality....
Actually, I think you don't know the difference between Illusion magic and Alteration...
And I hope that how you'd treat actual people is different than how you suggest you want to treat a NPC (whether thats the House of Revelries NPCs who hide their identities for the sake of their art OR the particular individual whohas used magic to change their gender)
And whatever you think about gender in reality, I find it hilarious to think about "misgendering" someone when MAGIC is in use. Like, its MAGIC. A Wizard Did It.
Are you really so tied to "people are born an immutable gender" that you can't roll with MAGIC? I mean, I wouldnt dox you because that's wrong on its own, but I do think that's a little ridiculous of a stance. Because MAGIC. Its a totally reasonable application of the Alteration magic we know about in Summerset, in one of the most magical areas in the game.Edited by VaranisArano on June 10, 2019 12:56AM4 -
mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »
You have no idea what I did in the quest, nor if I read through it or not.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.
Wow... you really didnt read the quest text one bit...
Your explanation for the quest clearly tells me one thing: It is a quest that revolves around that dude. Any way you cut it, it is very much a quest that has him in the forefront.
By the way, I feel relieved that no one has tried to dox me yet because I am "Misgendering" a digital character. At least people can be credited for some normality....
Actually, I think you don't know the difference between Illusion magic and Alteration...
And I hope that how you'd treat actual people is different than how you suggest you want to treat a NPC (whether thats the House of Revelries NPCs who hide their identities for the sake of their art OR the particular individual whohas used magic to change their gender)
And whatever you think about gender in reality, I find it hilarious to think about "misgendering" someone when MAGIC is in use. Like, its MAGIC. A Wizard Did It.
Are you really so tied to "people are born an immutable gender" that you can't roll with MAGIC? I mean, I wouldnt dox you because that's wrong on its own, but I do think that's a little ridiculous of a stance. Because MAGIC. Its a totally reasonable application of the Alteration magic we know about in Summerset, in one of the most magical areas in the game.
Dont get baited pls.
Look at his comments, he is using all the trigger attempts found in most bait posts to this topic.6 -
Cadbury✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭jainiadral wrote: »Funny how that Andromeda thing worked its way into everyone's consciousness--and not in a good way. It especially bugged me because it showed how completely and utterly hopeless we humans are. Three hundred or so years in the future, we've built galaxy-spanning ships. We've taken up a leading role in Milky Way affairs and integrated ourselves into a multi-species civilization. Many of our people have entered cross-species relationships. But we still can't figure out how to deal with someone changing their physical body to match their fundamental being.
Depressing as hell
If it makes you feel any better, the human race will most likely wipe itself out long before we reach that point in the distant future.
"If a person is truly desirous of something, perhaps being set on fire does not seem so bad."4 -
mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭And we just had an awesome example for forced representation in the BE3 Stream xD2
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Shaie✭✭✭Caligamy_ESO wrote: »
You do realize that the bards sing the songs that you find in the books in the various zones, right? She's not singing about HER bride and in fact, there is a male character that ALSO sings part of that song in the crafting area. So no, you're not having anything shoved in your face with regards to same-gender relationships.
I also feel that relationships are presented very nicely in this game. Borderlands is another where relationships just are - no fuss is made if the two involved are the same gender or not, it's about the RELATIONSHIP not the genitalia. As it should be in the real world...4 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭
This sounds like bait to me.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »
You have no idea what I did in the quest, nor if I read through it or not.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.
Wow... you really didnt read the quest text one bit...
Your explanation for the quest clearly tells me one thing: It is a quest that revolves around that dude. Any way you cut it, it is very much a quest that has him in the forefront.
By the way, I feel relieved that no one has tried to dox me yet because I am "Misgendering" a digital character. At least people can be credited for some normality....
Actually, I think you don't know the difference between Illusion magic and Alteration...
And I hope that how you'd treat actual people is different than how you suggest you want to treat a NPC (whether thats the House of Revelries NPCs who hide their identities for the sake of their art OR the particular individual whohas used magic to change their gender)
And whatever you think about gender in reality, I find it hilarious to think about "misgendering" someone when MAGIC is in use. Like, its MAGIC. A Wizard Did It.
Are you really so tied to "people are born an immutable gender" that you can't roll with MAGIC? I mean, I wouldnt dox you because that's wrong on its own, but I do think that's a little ridiculous of a stance. Because MAGIC. Its a totally reasonable application of the Alteration magic we know about in Summerset, in one of the most magical areas in the game.
Dont get baited pls.
Look at his comments, he is using all the trigger attempts found in most bait posts to this topic.
I passed out during that time, what was presented exactly?mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »And we just had an awesome example for forced representation in the BE3 Stream xD1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with OP. I am absolutley fine with trans ,*** etc. Ppl.
The thing is many of those ppl sems to have problem with it... when they point it out (the key word being "point out").
By doing so the make themselfs "different" on their own demand.
If I would point out every single time that I am "straight person" that would be wierd right ? Nobody cares about it. Nobody is interested by that.
The thing is, if you manifest "something", it does not matter what it is. It might be literly "anything". By doing so, you make yourself looking abnormally on your own demand.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'm glad they won the GLAAD media award last year.
Assassin's Creed Odyssey was the front runner before they decided to make everyone's character straight in the DLC (after promising they would never do that at the game's launch). They made it so your character's homosexuality in the base game (if you chose to go that route) was "just a phase".
ZOS gets it. Ubisoft, not so much.Edited by MLGProPlayer on June 10, 2019 7:09AM1 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Now if only they didn't force that Racum dar on you, it would be even better.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭I feel like expanding my thoughts a bit, after having some well-needed sleep, as to why I am so contesting towards this "Muh representation" fad.
The main thing that bothers me, is if people want it to be seen as a "Pretty normal thing in life", then these same people shouldn't be going around making a big deal out of it. It kinda loses the whole "Normal meaningless thing" facade, if you start making threads and trying to give praise to a developer for it, at that moment it is very much the only selling point to the characters in question, about what orientation they are or what their bodily identity is.
And you know what? It's a good thing to have a contesting opinion or thoughts on the matter, or to see the whole thing as pointless. People consider heterosexuality to be mundane and normal so they don't celebrate it, why should homosexuality or being a transexual be a celebrated thing?
Also, to address a comment made in reply to me...
Okay, fine, ALTERATION magic... I mean, it's still technically an illusion that alters things, but let's not get bent over the semantics in schools of magic for the Elder Scrolls series.VaranisArano wrote: »Actually, I think you don't know the difference between Illusion magic and Alteration...
And I hope that how you'd treat actual people is different than how you suggest you want to treat a NPC (whether thats the House of Revelries NPCs who hide their identities for the sake of their art OR the particular individual whohas used magic to change their gender)
And no, I don't care enough about actual people's identities to want to assault them or whatever, I am not an uncivilized savage (Even though the country I live in is pretty lax when it comes to these social politics). I just sit or move away from them, stark difference between the two.
Besides, why not have an option in the quest to dispell all the illusions (Oh wait, ALTERATIONS) in that one quest? If our characters are already murderhobos who steal and kill, then being a jerk towards some masquerading entertainers wouldn't be beneath them (At least, that would be a thing for one of my Necromancer characters).
Yeah, it's funny when someone says it, but make no mistake, there are plenty of insane people out in the world who are so wrapped up in this identity culture war, that I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to send hitmen after someone just because they have a differing opinion.VaranisArano wrote: »And whatever you think about gender in reality, I find it hilarious to think about "misgendering" someone when MAGIC is in use. Like, its MAGIC. A Wizard Did It.
Honestly, I'm just relieved that it wasn't the case that the dude mutilated himself and get hopped up on some crazy alchemy in order to get his desired result.VaranisArano wrote: »Are you really so tied to "people are born an immutable gender" that you can't roll with MAGIC? I mean, I wouldnt dox you because that's wrong on its own, but I do think that's a little ridiculous of a stance. Because MAGIC. Its a totally reasonable application of the Alteration magic we know about in Summerset, in one of the most magical areas in the game.
That being said, I accept it as a reasonable application of Alteration magic. Doesn't mean that I am sitting there thinking "I wonder what would happen if a wily wizard decided to undo his illusion." because... Well, to be honest, it'd be interesting to see if he'd be like "Oh shucks, now I'll have to get a new application of Alteration magic put on me", or go "You fiend, you monster, how dare you do this to me!?"
In B-Four someone says that I am "Baiting" again... Because you know, opinions that aren't favorable towards being progressive are bad.2 -
Caligamy_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Caligamy_ESO wrote: »
You do realize that the bards sing the songs that you find in the books in the various zones, right? She's not singing about HER bride and in fact, there is a male character that ALSO sings part of that song in the crafting area. So no, you're not having anything shoved in your face with regards to same-gender relationships.
I also feel that relationships are presented very nicely in this game. Borderlands is another where relationships just are - no fuss is made if the two involved are the same gender or not, it's about the RELATIONSHIP not the genitalia. As it should be in the real world...
Really? That's what you took away from a post without words? FYI I have been in the LGBT community and actively volunteering at events for well over 20 years, so maybe don't immediately jump to narrow minded assumptions next time. Hows that for shoving it in your face?Edited by Caligamy_ESO on June 10, 2019 10:42AMlove is love0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I feel like expanding my thoughts a bit, after having some well-needed sleep, as to why I am so contesting towards this "Muh representation" fad.
The main thing that bothers me, is if people want it to be seen as a "Pretty normal thing in life", then these same people shouldn't be going around making a big deal out of it. It kinda loses the whole "Normal meaningless thing" facade, if you start making threads and trying to give praise to a developer for it, at that moment it is very much the only selling point to the characters in question, about what orientation they are or what their bodily identity is.
And you know what? It's a good thing to have a contesting opinion or thoughts on the matter, or to see the whole thing as pointless. People consider heterosexuality to be mundane and normal so they don't celebrate it, why should homosexuality or being a transexual be a celebrated thing?
Also, to address a comment made in reply to me...
Okay, fine, ALTERATION magic... I mean, it's still technically an illusion that alters things, but let's not get bent over the semantics in schools of magic for the Elder Scrolls series.VaranisArano wrote: »Actually, I think you don't know the difference between Illusion magic and Alteration...
And I hope that how you'd treat actual people is different than how you suggest you want to treat a NPC (whether thats the House of Revelries NPCs who hide their identities for the sake of their art OR the particular individual whohas used magic to change their gender)
And no, I don't care enough about actual people's identities to want to assault them or whatever, I am not an uncivilized savage (Even though the country I live in is pretty lax when it comes to these social politics). I just sit or move away from them, stark difference between the two.
Besides, why not have an option in the quest to dispell all the illusions (Oh wait, ALTERATIONS) in that one quest? If our characters are already murderhobos who steal and kill, then being a jerk towards some masquerading entertainers wouldn't be beneath them (At least, that would be a thing for one of my Necromancer characters).
Yeah, it's funny when someone says it, but make no mistake, there are plenty of insane people out in the world who are so wrapped up in this identity culture war, that I wouldn't be surprised if they decided to send hitmen after someone just because they have a differing opinion.VaranisArano wrote: »And whatever you think about gender in reality, I find it hilarious to think about "misgendering" someone when MAGIC is in use. Like, its MAGIC. A Wizard Did It.
Honestly, I'm just relieved that it wasn't the case that the dude mutilated himself and get hopped up on some crazy alchemy in order to get his desired result.VaranisArano wrote: »Are you really so tied to "people are born an immutable gender" that you can't roll with MAGIC? I mean, I wouldnt dox you because that's wrong on its own, but I do think that's a little ridiculous of a stance. Because MAGIC. Its a totally reasonable application of the Alteration magic we know about in Summerset, in one of the most magical areas in the game.
That being said, I accept it as a reasonable application of Alteration magic. Doesn't mean that I am sitting there thinking "I wonder what would happen if a wily wizard decided to undo his illusion." because... Well, to be honest, it'd be interesting to see if he'd be like "Oh shucks, now I'll have to get a new application of Alteration magic put on me", or go "You fiend, you monster, how dare you do this to me!?"
In B-Four someone says that I am "Baiting" again... Because you know, opinions that aren't favorable towards being progressive are bad.
I'm sympathetic to your argument, and under normal circumstances I would agree with you. But considering the discriminatory past of the people involved here I do believe it serves a worthy purpose to give homosexuals "representation" in our media as it helps society grow more accustomed to them - which is a good thing and helps to alleviate bigotry and hatred. Though I'll admit that's less of an issue today than it used to be.1 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭jainiadral wrote: »Funny how that Andromeda thing worked its way into everyone's consciousness--and not in a good way. It especially bugged me because it showed how completely and utterly hopeless we humans are. Three hundred or so years in the future, we've built galaxy-spanning ships. We've taken up a leading role in Milky Way affairs and integrated ourselves into a multi-species civilization. Many of our people have entered cross-species relationships. But we still can't figure out how to deal with someone changing their physical body to match their fundamental being.
Depressing as hell
If it makes you feel any better, the human race will most likely wipe itself out long before we reach that point in the distant future.
I hate to agree, but... yeah 1 -
FierceSam✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I'll never understand the reason to compliment this game on this. Yeah, they have a few minor homosexual characters during questing - random NPCs who names I can't remember and who were generally generic in my opinion and quite forgettable. So it's a catch 22 really. Because the only thing that seems to make these characters memorable to people in the first place is the fact they were homosexuals - thus defeating their own logic. Because they weren't cool characters in their own right - at least not in my opinion.
When ZoS introduces a gay character of substance that is actually interesting and cool then I'll give them some praise on this topic. Otherwise, I find their efforts at "representation" lacking.
To me, the whole point of this thread, the reason we are praising ZOS, is that they introduce characters of varying sexuality who absolutely AREN’T ‘cool’ or ‘heroic’ or ‘interesting’. They are just ‘normal’. They aren’t essential to the main questline, they don’t help you save the alliance, you could quite happily go through the entire game and never meet them, they’re just there in Tamriel doing their thing, living the NPC life.
So when you do meet them you’re not immediately defining them or their actions or behaviour based on their sexuality. It’s just one part of their NPCness. It’s just normal for Tamriel. And that is down to skilful writing and content creation. It’s not about ‘representing’ or ‘making a statement’, they’re just nice little vignettes. And I really enjoy it when I happen upon these moments.
3 -
AbysmalGhul✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dinokstrun wrote: »Absolutely dead right. It's not forced in your face like you see in tv shows and movies these days. Too much forced agenda makes it feel unbearable.
Exactly. Letting things flow naturally seems to be a lost art with writing and implementation these days. I hate how most TV shows have become a "Twitter social awareness warrior hashtag theme". I like my fantasy immersion to be free from real life topics etc etc etcEdited by AbysmalGhul on June 10, 2019 9:11AM0 -
eklhaftb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
It just seems to me like this whole "forcing their sexuality" thing on you is reserved for homosexuality in particular - while heterosexual characters are free to be as overtly sexual as they want without having to deal with this criticism.
James Bond is a character built to entertain and entice the mainstream audience. Women imagine being manhandled by James Bond, and men imagine being James Bond. Now, if James Bond was homosexual, who would he be enticing to - the male half of the homosexual community? I don't think that's enough people to justify making a global blockbuster. So instead of a homosexual James Bond, we would likely have no James Bond at all.
Yes, having non-mainstream tastes can sometimes suck. For example, I love eating fried pork brains on a rye toast. And yet, there's a huge ton of steakhouses everywhere, and not a single pork-brains-house. Do I complain about steaknormativity? Do I go to steakhouses and campaign for equal representation? No, I just visit my butcher, buy a bag of pork brains and make my own at home. After all, people go to a steakhouse to eat their juicy mainstream steaks, not to listen as I preach about the delicate oily yeasty bittersweetness of a freshly fried brain; If I tried to, they would probably tell me to stop forcing my pork brains onto them - and hey, they would be totally right.
That said, I really appreciate how subtle the "forcing" is in ESO. It is barely noticeable, and more often than not, it feels like someone just made a typo when writing the quest dialogue. In fact, back when the game launched, I almost bug-reported one of the quests in Grahtwood when a woman started rambling about her "lost wife" (to my excuse, those were much simpler times, before the Left went bonkers all over the field, so I didn't know what "virtue signal" is
). 1 -
ZOS_JesCadminGreetings, we've closed this thread as the conversation has now wondered into inappropriate territory.The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited - ZeniMax Online Studios
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