This might be a big mistake, but I really want to say respect to ZOS for representation in this game
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mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.5 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.
Womanizing isn't the same as the charge of "forcing someone's sexuality" on you though. That's an entirely different criticism. I've never heard anyone suggest films that depict an abundance of heterosexual relationships being guilty of trying to "force" their sexuality onto someone else.Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 8:45PM1 -
mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.
Womanizing isn't the same as the charge of "forcing someone's sexuality" on you though. That's an entirely different criticism.
Fine, lets just say I agree with you, because I am not looking for a fight here.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.
Womanizing isn't the same as the charge of "forcing someone's sexuality" on you though. That's an entirely different criticism.
Fine, lets just say I agree with you, because I am not looking for a fight here.
You don't have to agree with me to end this. We can simply agree to disagree. ^^Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 8:46PM0 -
Dinokstrun✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.
I get why people say this but it's part of his shtick and revolves around his flirtatious characteristics. If Bond lost this it would lose the flamboyant relationship between Bond and the Bond girl of the movie resulting in a less fun film to watch. One of the many reasons why I fear Bond 25 will subtract this and potentially ruin the character of James Bond.3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Dinokstrun wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
IF you do a little google search, you will find that James Bond womanizing is one of the main critic point about the character, especially in modern days. And yes, his treatment of women is problematic.
I get why people say this but it's part of his shtick and revolves around his flirtatious characteristics. If Bond lost this it would lose the flamboyant relationship between Bond and the Bond girl of the movie resulting in a less fun film to watch. One of the many reasons why I fear Bond 25 will subtract this and potentially ruin the character of James Bond.
I agree. Many people (I would say most in fact) consider this one of Bond's most lovable traits and is a big reason for the character's appeal. It's like romantic fantasy I guess you could call it - where the character goes around seducing every beautiful woman he meets in a way men only wish they could.
Yet something tells me if there was a homosexual version of a James Bond film you would have millions of people criticizing the movie for "forcing his sexuality" onto the rest of us (in fact I know they would). That's why I say there is a double standard here. Heterosexual characters are allowed to be gratuitously sexual in games and film - yet when homosexual characters are it's considered "forcing their sexuality" onto the rest of us.
Just imagine a gay version of Darien from this game for a more local example. Would people consider such a character to be the developers trying to force his sexuality onto them? I bet they would. Yet you never hear that same criticism hurled at the heterosexual version.Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 9:32PM5 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. Then they did that a second time in an early DLC (Thieves Guild). They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I don't actually recall a lot of gay couples from more ordinary quests. There's the guy who wants you to rescue his husband in Northern Bangorkai, and the woman -- First Mate? -- who wants you to rescue her wife (girlfriend?) near the western end of the northern coast of one of the AD zones. And there's the complicated one in Rivenspire I won't spell out for reason of possible spoilers ... and what else?
Edited by FrancisCrawford on June 9, 2019 9:36PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I'll never understand the reason to compliment this game on this. Yeah, they have a few minor homosexual characters during questing - random NPCs who names I can't remember and who were generally generic in my opinion and quite forgettable. So it's a catch 22 really. Because the only thing that seems to make these characters memorable to people in the first place is the fact they were homosexuals - thus defeating their own logic. Because they weren't cool characters in their own right - at least not in my opinion.
When ZoS introduces a gay character of substance that is actually interesting and cool then I'll give them some praise on this topic. Otherwise, I find their efforts at "representation" lacking.Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 9:41PM4 -
Sgtmeg✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Dinokstrun wrote: »Absolutely dead right. It's not forced in your face like you see in tv shows and movies these days. Too much forced agenda makes it feel unbearable.
I may not be understanding you correctly. But why is it considered "forcing" someone's sexuality when it's presented in an overt way only when it comes to homosexuality?
I don't recall this same argument being made during the thousands (perhaps millions) of shows and movies that have heterosexual relationships thrust on the screen in graphic detail. So I've never understood the logic behind this argument that in order to represent homosexuals you have to be subtle with how you present it - otherwise you are "forcing" it.
The main problem about this, and why it feels really force, is that most times the sexuality is the main character trait, and its also often paired with over the top virtue signaling.
The point isnt that you have to be subtle, the point is that you should present these characters naturally. A Character that reminds you every 5 minutes how homosexual or transexual he is really defeats the purpose here. And before you ask, yes, heterosexual characters whos main characteristic is their sexuality are just as bad.
Well as you suggest, that's true of a lot of characters. James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
It just seems to me like this whole "forcing their sexuality" thing on you is reserved for homosexuality in particular - while heterosexual characters are free to be as overtly sexual as they want without having to deal with this criticism.
I think the biggest disconnect here is that there's a big difference between flirting and being a flirtatious person and what people perceive as being forceful with a character trait. As posted above, two women talking about how they've been fail flirting with each other is entirely natural. However, having a character introduce themselves then go on to list their sexuality, kinks and gender identity in bulletpoint format is forceful. The whole "forcing their sexuality into their character" isn't about their sexuality itself or even its importance to their character, but how it's handled. Straight characters have their sexuality handled naturally and they flow easily like Bond's does, but a gay character is given choppy dialogue and an unsettling need to remind you that yes, he is available to *** thanks for asking o you didn't well he really likes *** just reminding you. We just want people to write LGBT characters as naturally as straight ones and I don't think that's a bad thing to expect from writers. Just my two cents on the subject tho.5 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭About three years or so ago, I'd probably agree and be on board with this.
But after having LGBAlphabet beat heterosexuality down to the point where it feels like you're in the wrong for being heterosexual (I mean Hell, look at all the bigotted comments made towards the Straight Pride Parade idea recently revealed), I started to consider it all to be nothing more than pandering.
Also, fortunately you can dispell that dude's gender illusion spell and make him be a natural guy once more. Wish you'd have the ability to do that in retrospect...Edited by Kalgert on June 9, 2019 9:47PM4 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭
I feel like this is an underrated line of thinking, for how true it is.FrancisCrawford wrote: »AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I'll never understand the reason to compliment this game on this. Yeah, they have a few minor homosexual characters during questing - random NPCs who names I can't remember and who were generally generic in my opinion and quite forgettable. So it's a catch 22 really. Because the only thing that seems to make these characters memorable to people in the first place is the fact they were homosexuals - thus defeating their own logic. Because they weren't cool characters in their own right - at least not in my opinion.
When ZoS introduces a gay character of substance that is actually interesting and cool then I'll give them some praise on this topic. Otherwise, I find their efforts at "representation" lacking.
In fact, this is probably why I hate this "Muh representation" culture that is found in entertainment. It is pretty much the same song and dance:
Game happens to include homosexuals, people go crazy over it and shower praise on the game for having gays, and inflate their significance, and in turn try to play mental gymnastics and mindgames on people who aren't playing ball, in order to discredit them or try to make them look like the bad guy.
Big deal if someone is gay. At the very least ESO isn't preachy about it. Also I haven't seen any pandering in Elsweyr yet. Hopefully it stays that way.3 -
me_ming✭✭✭✭✭OMG! Is there a transgender quest in ESO? Please tell me where I could find it. And OP, I totally agree with you, ESO's story-telling really is superb. No matter what race, gender or religion you are (in the context of ESO universe, that is). I like how smooth and natural their stories are expressed without it being overbearing. I think it was already mentioned, but my favorite is definitely the Greenshade one. Makes me cry everytime. If there is a trans quest, I would loooove to do that. I have yet to experience a trans-anything in game. The closest I have experienced is in the Sims 4, when they had a "gender" update. Maxis (TS4 developers) said that they did the research especially for the transgender part, but boy was it all wrong. While you can wear any outfit in game, regardless of gender, you are still called a "he" or "she" in in-game text. Which technically means you're a cross-dresser not a transgender. So yeah, stopped playing that game. lol."We're heroes, my boon companion, and heroes always win! Let that be a lesson to you."
-Caldwell, "The Final Assault"
"There is always a choice. But you don't get to choose what is true, you only get to choose what you will do about it..."
-Abnur Tharn, "God of Schemes"]0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Dinokstrun wrote: »Absolutely dead right. It's not forced in your face like you see in tv shows and movies these days. Too much forced agenda makes it feel unbearable.
I may not be understanding you correctly. But why is it considered "forcing" someone's sexuality when it's presented in an overt way only when it comes to homosexuality?
I don't recall this same argument being made during the thousands (perhaps millions) of shows and movies that have heterosexual relationships thrust on the screen in graphic detail. So I've never understood the logic behind this argument that in order to represent homosexuals you have to be subtle with how you present it - otherwise you are "forcing" it.
The main problem about this, and why it feels really force, is that most times the sexuality is the main character trait, and its also often paired with over the top virtue signaling.
The point isnt that you have to be subtle, the point is that you should present these characters naturally. A Character that reminds you every 5 minutes how homosexual or transexual he is really defeats the purpose here. And before you ask, yes, heterosexual characters whos main characteristic is their sexuality are just as bad.
Well as you suggest, that's true of a lot of characters. James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
It just seems to me like this whole "forcing their sexuality" thing on you is reserved for homosexuality in particular - while heterosexual characters are free to be as overtly sexual as they want without having to deal with this criticism.
I think the biggest disconnect here is that there's a big difference between flirting and being a flirtatious person and what people perceive as being forceful with a character trait. As posted above, two women talking about how they've been fail flirting with each other is entirely natural. However, having a character introduce themselves then go on to list their sexuality, kinks and gender identity in bulletpoint format is forceful. The whole "forcing their sexuality into their character" isn't about their sexuality itself or even its importance to their character, but how it's handled. Straight characters have their sexuality handled naturally and they flow easily like Bond's does, but a gay character is given choppy dialogue and an unsettling need to remind you that yes, he is available to *** thanks for asking o you didn't well he really likes *** just reminding you. We just want people to write LGBT characters as naturally as straight ones and I don't think that's a bad thing to expect from writers. Just my two cents on the subject tho.
I'm not sure what gay character you are referring to. So it's difficult for me to respond in detail since I don't know what you are referencing.
But I would argue the Bond character for example is not handled "naturally" - but is often given dialogue drenched in over-the-top sexual innuendo whose sole purpose is to remind you he is a god of sex. I can't imagine a real conversation between two normal human beings ever resembling something like a Bond interaction.
it seems to me what you are really talking about here is just boring writing and dialogue - where as much of Bond's writing is witty and clever.Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 10:00PM0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Just imagine a gay version of Darien from this game for a more local example. Would people consider such a character to be the developers trying to force his sexuality onto society? I bet they would. Yet you never hear that same criticism hurled at the heterosexual version.
You're probably right.
On the other hand, I've seen little criticism of the characters who obviouslyFrancisCrawford wrote: »AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I'll never understand the reason to compliment this game on this. Yeah, they have a few minor homosexual characters during questing - random NPCs who names I can't remember and who were generally generic in my opinion and quite forgettable. So it's a catch 22 really. Because the only thing that seems to make these characters memorable to people in the first place is the fact they were homosexuals - thus defeating their own logic. Because they weren't cool characters in their own right - at least not in my opinion.
When ZoS introduces a gay character of substance that is actually interesting and cool then I'll give them some praise on this topic. Otherwise, I find their efforts at "representation" lacking.
I don't understand your complaint. I cited two examples where the gay/lesbian couple was memorable apart from sexual identity. A third one was of course in Thieves Guild.
I'd understand the opposite criticism better, in which somebody would complain about what a large fraction of characters are straight, with a few memorable exceptions creating a false impression as to how prevalent LGBQT folks are overall.
Similarly, I only recall four clearly bi characters, and a couple of those are among the flashiest in the game -- Jakarn, who seems mainly straight, and the DLC pledge-giver, who doesn't. In fairness, however, all the cases except one are of characters who flirt aggressively with everybody, so the flashiness is sort of essential to the character concept.Edited by FrancisCrawford on June 9, 2019 10:00PM1 -
Ditronus✭✭✭There was one bad example of this representation in the realm of "mixed" marriages/relationships. There's a quest far west of Davon's Watch where the Lord at the castle there is a nord and his wife a dark elf. Your player has several options to dig into their history on how they met.
Except it's odd and would be very rude in actuality to pose such questions you think. You say something like, "A Nord with a dark elf, how did you two meet?" It's akin to saying, "A mexican with an asian? Please, tell me how this happened?"
Of course, things are very much racially motivated in ESO's world so perhaps it was so shocking that to pose such a seemingly rude question was justified. It did just feel out of the blue and unnecessary much like the ME:A woman's arbitrary mention of her gender identity/sexual preference.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
Just imagine a gay version of Darien from this game for a more local example. Would people consider such a character to be the developers trying to force his sexuality onto society? I bet they would. Yet you never hear that same criticism hurled at the heterosexual version.
You're probably right.
On the other hand, I've seen little criticism of the characters who obviouslyFrancisCrawford wrote: »AlboMalefica wrote: »Yeah I agree OP, as a "gaymer" I do like how it's just a part of the world & not thrown down everyone's throat. We are not special, we're people just like everyone else.
The quest that really warms my heart is the elder gay elves in green shade, gets me everytime
Yeah. They don't really have that many gay couples, but they took one of their best ideas for a serious romantic side quest and gave it to gays. They also took one of their best ideas for a funny flirtation and gave it to two female merchants in the Hollow City. Much respect for those choices.
I'll never understand the reason to compliment this game on this. Yeah, they have a few minor homosexual characters during questing - random NPCs who names I can't remember and who were generally generic in my opinion and quite forgettable. So it's a catch 22 really. Because the only thing that seems to make these characters memorable to people in the first place is the fact they were homosexuals - thus defeating their own logic. Because they weren't cool characters in their own right - at least not in my opinion.
When ZoS introduces a gay character of substance that is actually interesting and cool then I'll give them some praise on this topic. Otherwise, I find their efforts at "representation" lacking.
I don't understand your complaint. I cited two examples where the gay/lesbian couple was memorable apart from sexual identity. A third one was of course in Thieves Guild.
I'd understand the opposite criticism better, in which somebody would complain about what a large fraction of characters are straight, with a few memorable exceptions creating a false impression as to how prevalent LGBQT folks are overall.
Similarly, I only recall four clearly bi characters, and a couple of those are among the flashiest in the game -- Jakarn, who seems mainly straight, and the DLC pledge-giver, who doesn't. In fairness, however, all the cases except one are of characters who flirt aggressively with everybody, so the flashiness is sort of essential to the character concept.
It's not really a "complaint". I don't have a problem with how the game presented those characters. I just didn't find anything particularly interesting about them either or worthy of praise. I just didn't find them very memorable.
If ZoS wants my praise for "gay representation" then they are going to have to introduce a more significant character who is actually cool and interesting with some actual character development.Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 10:10PM1 -
LordTareq✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Rain_Greyraven wrote: »
I am in Summerset right now, I didnt see anything that felt forced here... actually, a quest in Summerset gave me the final push to make this Thread
Yeah, I don't recall anything being forced there either. Forced is Andromeda's "Nice to meet you I'm gay. Did I mention I'm gay? I came to this other galaxy because I'm gay and my home galaxy where half the population was gay not including an entire race of gay people hated gay people and I'm gay so I came here to be gay. Did I tell you I was gay yet?" Sad to say that's not the only or even the worst SJW sin that game committed.
It was the same in Mass Effect 3. I ended up giving one of the soldiers a compliment (which wasn't at all meant in a sexual way), I may have clicked through the conversation a bit too hasty, and next thing I knew my character and the soldier were kissing and declaring eternal love. Not at all what I intended. Though to be fair the same was the case for the heterosexual relationships. I mean you could barely talk to anyone without half the conversation options being hitting on them hard. I honestly think the extremely high number of gay characters on the Normandy was just a defense mechanism by the female crewmembers to prevent straight Sheppard from sexually harassing them all (and a shrewd plan by the male crewmembers to advance their careers in case of a gay/bisexual Sheppard.
) 0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Rain_Greyraven wrote: »
I am in Summerset right now, I didnt see anything that felt forced here... actually, a quest in Summerset gave me the final push to make this Thread
Yeah, I don't recall anything being forced there either. Forced is Andromeda's "Nice to meet you I'm gay. Did I mention I'm gay? I came to this other galaxy because I'm gay and my home galaxy where half the population was gay not including an entire race of gay people hated gay people and I'm gay so I came here to be gay. Did I tell you I was gay yet?" Sad to say that's not the only or even the worst SJW sin that game committed.
It was the same in Mass Effect 3. I ended up giving one of the soldiers a compliment (which wasn't at all meant in a sexual way), I may have clicked through the conversation a bit too hasty, and next thing I knew my character and the soldier were kissing and declaring eternal love. Not at all what I intended. Though to be fair the same was the case for the heterosexual relationships. I mean you could barely talk to anyone without half the conversation options being hitting on them hard. I honestly think the extremely high number of gay characters on the Normandy was just a defense mechanism by the female crewmembers to prevent straight Sheppard from sexually harassing them all (and a shrewd plan by the male crewmembers to advance their careers in case of a gay/bisexual Sheppard. )
I did something similar in SWTOR. I got a little too friendly with Theron Shan and next thing I knew we were a couple. lolEdited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 10:27PM0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭
The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »
I'm still disappointed that you don't have an option to unmask the dude by also making him back to his regular normal self. But I imagine it would make people go ballistic and make a lot of angry Twitter posts against Zenimax, so I can see why it's not a possibility...2 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Funny how that Andromeda thing worked its way into everyone's consciousness--and not in a good way. It especially bugged me because it showed how completely and utterly hopeless we humans are. Three hundred or so years in the future, we've built galaxy-spanning ships. We've taken up a leading role in Milky Way affairs and integrated ourselves into a multi-species civilization. Many of our people have entered cross-species relationships. But we still can't figure out how to deal with someone changing their physical body to match their fundamental being.
Depressing as hell 0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Dinokstrun wrote: »Absolutely dead right. It's not forced in your face like you see in tv shows and movies these days. Too much forced agenda makes it feel unbearable.
I may not be understanding you correctly. But why is it considered "forcing" someone's sexuality when it's presented in an overt way only when it comes to homosexuality?
I don't recall this same argument being made during the thousands (perhaps millions) of shows and movies that have heterosexual relationships thrust on the screen in graphic detail. So I've never understood the logic behind this argument that in order to represent homosexuals you have to be subtle with how you present it - otherwise you are "forcing" it.
The main problem about this, and why it feels really force, is that most times the sexuality is the main character trait, and its also often paired with over the top virtue signaling.
The point isnt that you have to be subtle, the point is that you should present these characters naturally. A Character that reminds you every 5 minutes how homosexual or transexual he is really defeats the purpose here. And before you ask, yes, heterosexual characters whos main characteristic is their sexuality are just as bad.
Well as you suggest, that's true of a lot of characters. James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
It just seems to me like this whole "forcing their sexuality" thing on you is reserved for homosexuality in particular - while heterosexual characters are free to be as overtly sexual as they want without having to deal with this criticism.
I don’t know about you but “playboy is my personality” characters, randomly inserted and unnecessary romances, and weird unasked for love triangles have been getting criticized all over in recent years.
I can promise it’s just as cringe either way watching forced romances of any sort show up in mediaEdited by Jhalin on June 9, 2019 10:46PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Dinokstrun wrote: »Absolutely dead right. It's not forced in your face like you see in tv shows and movies these days. Too much forced agenda makes it feel unbearable.
I may not be understanding you correctly. But why is it considered "forcing" someone's sexuality when it's presented in an overt way only when it comes to homosexuality?
I don't recall this same argument being made during the thousands (perhaps millions) of shows and movies that have heterosexual relationships thrust on the screen in graphic detail. So I've never understood the logic behind this argument that in order to represent homosexuals you have to be subtle with how you present it - otherwise you are "forcing" it.
The main problem about this, and why it feels really force, is that most times the sexuality is the main character trait, and its also often paired with over the top virtue signaling.
The point isnt that you have to be subtle, the point is that you should present these characters naturally. A Character that reminds you every 5 minutes how homosexual or transexual he is really defeats the purpose here. And before you ask, yes, heterosexual characters whos main characteristic is their sexuality are just as bad.
Well as you suggest, that's true of a lot of characters. James Bond for example: his sexuality is certainly one of his main character traits. Yet I never remember anyone making the argument that the Bond Movies are "forcing" his heterosexuality on everyone else because those films like to remind you ever 5 minutes he likes to have sex with woman. Nor are his relationships with woman presented in a "natural" way.
It just seems to me like this whole "forcing their sexuality" thing on you is reserved for homosexuality in particular - while heterosexual characters are free to be as overtly sexual as they want without having to deal with this criticism.
I don’t know about you but “playboy is my personality” characters, randomly inserted and unnecessary romances, and weird unasked for love triangles have been getting criticized all over in recent years.
I can promise it’s just as cringe when eithe rway watching forced romances of any sort show up in media
James Bond is one of the most popular characters in film history and has survived for generations. You may not like it - but clearly a lot of people do . But my point was that I've never heard anyone suggest James Bond was forcing his sexuality onto the rest of us. I wasn't really trying to praise James Bond in my post. I was providing evidence as to the double standard I believe exist around this notion of "forcing sexuality".Edited by Jeremy on June 9, 2019 10:47PM1 -
mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
Edited by mann9753b16_ESO on June 9, 2019 10:47PM2 -
Monte_Cristo✭✭✭✭✭
✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
I don't actually recall a lot of gay couples from more ordinary quests. There's the guy who wants you to rescue his husband in Northern Bangorkai, and the woman -- First Mate? -- who wants you to rescue her wife (girlfriend?) near the western end of the northern coast of one of the AD zones. And there's the complicated one in Rivenspire I won't spell out for reason of possible spoilers ... and what else?
There's a merchant in Craiglorn. Her wife has one of my favourite npc lines in the game.
Got a screenshot of it, but I don't know how to add it here.0 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »Rain_Greyraven wrote: »
I am in Summerset right now, I didnt see anything that felt forced here... actually, a quest in Summerset gave me the final push to make this Thread
Yeah, I don't recall anything being forced there either. Forced is Andromeda's "Nice to meet you I'm gay. Did I mention I'm gay? I came to this other galaxy because I'm gay and my home galaxy where half the population was gay not including an entire race of gay people hated gay people and I'm gay so I came here to be gay. Did I tell you I was gay yet?" Sad to say that's not the only or even the worst SJW sin that game committed.
It was the same in Mass Effect 3. I ended up giving one of the soldiers a compliment (which wasn't at all meant in a sexual way), I may have clicked through the conversation a bit too hasty, and next thing I knew my character and the soldier were kissing and declaring eternal love. Not at all what I intended. Though to be fair the same was the case for the heterosexual relationships. I mean you could barely talk to anyone without half the conversation options being hitting on them hard. I honestly think the extremely high number of gay characters on the Normandy was just a defense mechanism by the female crewmembers to prevent straight Sheppard from sexually harassing them all (and a shrewd plan by the male crewmembers to advance their careers in case of a gay/bisexual Sheppard. )
I'm just remembering FemShep and Jacob
Second hello, and she's purring like she isn't only 24 hours out of the vat. Or trying to dodge Tali on my ManShep. He tried to let her down easy and ended up in a triangle with Miranda. 0 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.Edited by Kalgert on June 9, 2019 11:01PM0 -
mann9753b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.
Wow... you really didnt read the quest text one bit...3 -
Kalgert✭✭✭✭✭
You have no idea what I did in the quest, nor if I read through it or not.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »
I am not using the spoiler tag because I don't care.mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »mann9753b16_ESO wrote: »The quest revolves around you trying to find a lady's brother, who then turns out to be using an illusion spell to make himself look like a woman. How is that NOT what the quest/character is about?
Since we clearly have someone here who didnt do the quest yet, how about using spoilers when you talk about the details of the quest?
And to your question:The Quest is about helping a sister to find her brother, who she belives is falling in with the wrong crowd and wants to have back so they can become apprentices for some mage institution. During the quest, we learn that her brother (now sister, yet I will call her "he" just to better seperate the two) was never keen to the idea of being a mage and wanted to be a performer, because of his love for the crowd, the cheers, the exitement. Yet he is afraid to tell that to his sister, because he is afraid that if she knew that he never wanted to become an apprentice, she would give up on her dream, just to stay with him. The Quest ends (At least the way I played it) with both of them talking about it and agreeing that both should go after their own dreams, even if that means going seperate ways. THe story of this quest has nothing to do with the brother deciding that he wants to be a female performer. You could totaly delete this part from the quest and it would change nothing for the quests context. If you really think this quest was about the brother being transgender just because he happened to be transgender, you either didnt pay attention, or just the fact that the quest involved a transgender character made it about that in your eyes for whatever reason.
And yeah, the story of the quest essentially revolves around that one dude who needs his illusion spell to be negated.
Wow... you really didnt read the quest text one bit...
Your explanation for the quest clearly tells me one thing: It is a quest that revolves around that dude. Any way you cut it, it is very much a quest that has him in the forefront.
By the way, I feel relieved that no one has tried to dox me yet because I am "Misgendering" a digital character. At least people can be credited for some normality....3
This discussion has been closed.