stpdmonkey wrote: »

The talons a was calling claws. And having enough magika and stamina to pull in 20 different adds is not possible. With such a short taunt time you will loose taunt before you got thru half the adds.

You arent supposed to be pulling and taunting all the adds. ESO is designed for the DDs and healers to have to take some of the aggro, while the tank focuses on taunting the heavy-hitting miniboss adds or the boss.

Now, ideally the tank can taunt the minibosses while crowd controlling the rest of the adds...but let's be honest, messing with the tank's ability to crowd control adds is an easy way to increase difficulty in a game where plenty of players prefer to rely on self-heals+high DPS instead of a dedicated healer. If you want a PVE reason for the change, that's probably it.

Also losing the slow down on Caltrops sucks. you could drop talons along with caltrops then Talons and the mobs were pretty stuck. Now you can't do either.

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm sure it was easy to make this immunity work only on players, we have ton of sets and CP that work only on players.

Agreed, which should evidence that this is not a side effect of PvP balancing but something intentionally added for PvE as well.

Really imo this is a non-issue.

stpdmonkey wrote: »

jypcy wrote: »

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

I'm sure it was easy to make this immunity work only on players, we have ton of sets and CP that work only on players.

Agreed, which should evidence that this is not a side effect of PvP balancing but something intentionally added for PvE as well.

Really imo this is a non-issue.

Then zos changed their view on a tanks job over the last couple years. They used the claim that a tanks job is to taunt and hold the boss and crowd control the adds which is the reason we had stuns and immobilize skills. Now the apparently only want a tank to hold bosses. It does reduce the number of truly useful skills for a tank and makes a tanks job harder. Which in turn makes dps and healer jobs harder. Dps and healers now have to rely on self heals and shields more. Which shields have recently been nerfed to a almost useless point also. There are now too many fights that are going to be all about lucky rng to complete achievements instead of skill.

I really think you’re exaggerating the effects of this change. Tanks can still crowd control with plenty, and the aoe minor maim is imo the main reason a dk should run talons, and that effect hasn’t changed as far as I’m aware. Maybe we disagree, but I don’t think spamming a single skill to by and large lock down small melee adds is indicative of “skill.” And if we agree that it’s not, I don’t follow how this change lessens the payoff of being skilled enough to complete an achievement.

stpdmonkey wrote: »

There needs to be some fix for the fact that crowd control ability just got completely screwed. The dragonknight has been the tanking class for years. I'm all for making it easier to use other classes but quit making it harder to tank on the most used tank class. Making a delay between claws has completely screwed any ability to crowd control. The slows dont do enough at all and group mates get hit by alot more now. Which makes it harder on the healer who is usually trying very hard already. And add on the fact that earthgore was made almost useless that increases the difficulty. A tank is now only helpful when it comes to bosses. This needs to be fixed. Give us some sort of taunt for trash adds at the very least. There needs to be

oh common you have more than enough basic cc on a dk tank to combine into a useful scenario for any situation. Use your brain a bit. It's not exactly like you're some stupid monkey right ?

I personally enjoy being able to make non-DK tanks viable. And while I do think DK tanks are losing ground, it's not near enough to make them bad tanks. If a player has a problem using something when it's not overpowered, the problem is with the player, not the class being taken down to reasonable levels.

My personal crowd control has been cinder ash cloud. Talons and blockade. It holds the adds still for the most part. Haleavy attacks between and then repeat with talons. Now with the same method I cannot keep them grouped at all. So now it's to taunting each add individually in order to keep them off the dps or healer. It is not a complete tank kill no. But it does hurt alot. If you are in a vet dungeon trying to get a no death then that task just got that much worse. It was already difficult and now barely feasible

It definately has made other tanks more viable as now there is no benefit to use dk tanks over any other. They still do have the best self heal and shield abilities in my opinion but in the end I feel like they are trying to make all classes completely equal which will take away any reason to create different toons with different classes for anything. At this point in time it is becoming 100% viable to make one toon that switches gear and cp and skills around and do any job. For instance my magplar can be turned into a healer with mainly just gear changes and replacing skills already unlocked. If I go thru and get all the skill points for making it a tank i can easily use only one toon for all 3 roles and switch faster by staying logged in then swapping toons. The reason I loved tanking was because of how you had to tank in this game versus others I have played. That has since been changed over and over and become well less fun. Every aspect of this game and the way any toon runs that I love about it is slowly being taken away until well there is almost nothing worth it. I have to keep searching for new things to enjoy for a month until they remove it. But to answer your question yes any class of tank will now be equally as viable as a dk tank which used to be the best. No longer is there a benefit of being a dk tank. With silverleash and no more truly viable crowd control anything works. A nightblade tank is about as useful as any other class (except the fact there isnt a good self heal)

John_Falstaff wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

I personally enjoy being able to make non-DK tanks viable. And while I do think DK tanks are losing ground, it's not near enough to make them bad tanks. If a player has a problem using something when it's not overpowered, the problem is with the player, not the class being taken down to reasonable levels.

So you think the change makes non-DK tanks more viable? ^^ Give any thought to the fact that it's not DK talons that were nerfed, but all immobilization now gives immunity, regardless of the class? In fact, DKs will take the smallest hit because talons are relatively cheap, and non-DK tanks commonly used Time Stop... and guess what other change came in recently? Right, Time Stop cost increase. So non-DK tanks got screwed most royally in last two patches.

The tank meta is changing. It seems fair to ask that players try to change with it and hopefully create a more balanced combat environment as a result. It's rough changing from a meta that one is used to, but, at least ideally, the meta is changed to achieve better balance or to accommodate new additions to the game, so getting used to the new meta is better in the long run.

Tanks who, for example, didn't rely as heavily on CC, might be better now. Maybe DPSes will have to incorporate tactics they hadn't before because of the tank not being able to just CC everyone constantly. Maybe ZOS was just making this change for the sake of PVPers and this is an unintended effect for PVEers. Who knows - but the point is that there are plenty of fair and reasonable reasons why ZOS may have made this change.

My opinion is simply that it's 1. not that big of a deal and 2. not really a bad change in the first place, once you look at the meta as a whole and not just at Dragonknights.

I get your point. I cannot argue that. The multi res ulti of necro will honestly be best placed in a necro tank. And probably my biggest issue here is they screwed my favorite thing in the game. So yeah this is probably mainly personal. It's completely possible to add content and no destroy old staples of the game. There are many of us who have been here from the start and are getting tired of seeing the parts we love and enjoy in the game get removed. Tired of spending hours upon hours making toons and when we finally get it complete they change things and make us basically restart. This game has become a far different game then 3 to 4 years ago. Some improvements and alot of destruction of the way it was created and what it was created as. I have seen very little of zos keeping to their word of what the game is supposed to be like. Every year that changes. If they do this to hide what they are coming up with then fine. Just stop lying to us or telling us what its supposed to be like. Go ahead and read the description from zos from 2 years ago about what a tank does. Then look at the current abilities across the board and you will see that they did not stick with it at all

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

profundidob16_ESO wrote: »

stpdmonkey wrote: »

There needs to be some fix for the fact that crowd control ability just got completely screwed. The dragonknight has been the tanking class for years. I'm all for making it easier to use other classes but quit making it harder to tank on the most used tank class. Making a delay between claws has completely screwed any ability to crowd control. The slows dont do enough at all and group mates get hit by alot more now. Which makes it harder on the healer who is usually trying very hard already. And add on the fact that earthgore was made almost useless that increases the difficulty. A tank is now only helpful when it comes to bosses. This needs to be fixed. Give us some sort of taunt for trash adds at the very least. There needs to be

oh common you have more than enough basic cc on a dk tank to combine into a useful scenario for any situation. Use your brain a bit. It's not exactly like you're some stupid monkey right ?

There were ton of situations where through experience you can keep ton of exploding etc mobs rooted long enough to get them burned without fuss... but now obviously in vet content even very good dps can't burn 400k mobs in 4 seconds so they start crawling around and you need to personally taunt everybody to prevent this. This is not difficult it's just tiresome and boring.

Marginis wrote: »

I personally enjoy being able to make non-DK tanks viable. And while I do think DK tanks are losing ground, it's not near enough to make them bad tanks. If a player has a problem using something when it's not overpowered, the problem is with the player, not the class being taken down to reasonable levels.

I really don't get it why this impacts only DK? It impacts any tank. I have sorc, NB and DK tanks, my mobs were always in check even on NB (due to bombard) now they run amok on any class. I don't see anything good in it. it just turns tank into 1 woodpecker.

I do agree. I only have a dk tank. Although I am starting to create a tank of every class to be knowledgable on it.i still personally feel like this was a direct attack on tanks. If they want to go this way then they should give us some kind of aoe taunt. Doesnt have to work on adds that we cant talon anyways which is ok. For instance if the ice staff blockade gave a aoe taunt that grabbed any ad that you can talon that would resolve the issue. It's a general area aoe taunt. Not useable for adds you would directly taunt now but does resolve the cc issue they created. Gives some sort of control back to a tank. But as zos said in the beginning they will NEVER give us an aoe taunt.