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Cast Timed Ability 200MS Post GCD Reduction not working right

susmitds
susmitds
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I tested Uppercut, Snipe on PTS by light weaving these attacks on a Stamplar.

Uppercut DPS on Live - 17152

Uppercut DPS on PTS same build - 15978

Snipe DPS on Live - 16310

Snipe DPS on PTS same build - 14525


What is going on? GCD changes specifically mentioned DPS increase of 6% for Uppercut and same DPS for Snipe. Instead, it looks like a significant nerf for both. Also, weaving does not feel any better on the PTS.

Also, I did see a significant improvement in DPS for channeled abilities, specifically Jabs, resulting in around 15% higher DPS and weaving in generally felt better for Jabs.

Is GCD reduction bugged for Cast timed abilities?
  • Bladerunner1
    Bladerunner1
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    susmitds wrote: »
    Is GCD reduction bugged for Cast timed abilities?

    We've been asking the same question for weeks but haven't heard anything. Though I technically haven't added a ZOS employee to a post yet.

    @ZOS_GinaBruno
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    There seems to be a host of issues going on here.

    Problem #1 is that cast times which meet or exceed the global cooldown are respecting the global cooldown. They should not respect the global cooldown and be completely unregulated by it since there are already internal measures which prevent the use of channeled skills from being mixed with other skills smoothly - primarily the fact that it has a cast time. Sound redundant? It should, because it is.

    I.E. Flurry -> Dark Flare. There is a significant delay in being able to cast Dark Flare straight after Flurry due to Flurry's animation being so short. This should not be the case - this leads to a scenario where cast time skills can not be properly chained and cast together with instant cast skills. It introduces excessive and unnecessary cast time delays which have a detrimental impact to their performance.

    Problem #2 is that there also seems to be animation checks in place. E.G. your character literally will not start the cast time until you character model reaches a position upon which the animation/cast time is determined to start. This can easily be verified by timing the amount of frames uppercut holds in the primed/charging position, and how many frames it takes to get to said position. The primed position is always within a very tight margin (unless lag) which is acceptable, but the actual character modeling can vary and can range from non-existent to taking upwards of a second to reach said position.

    Problem #3 is that we have no internal testing capabilities that will tell us with certainty that the internal post-global cooldown was infact removed. When channeled skills had their API data hidden (courtesy of the legendary @Dorrino ) we lost all available metrics to actually verify this change.

    TL;DR: ZOS has robbed us of the necessary tools to verify this change is working, much less as intended. Other factors in play which are making it impossible to identify what the actual problem is.
    Edited by usmcjdking on May 15, 2019 10:58PM
    0331
    0602
  • Minno
    Minno
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    There seems to be a host of issues going on here.

    Problem #1 is that cast times which meet or exceed the global cooldown are respecting the global cooldown. They should not respect the global cooldown and be completely unregulated by it since there are already internal measures which prevent the use of channeled skills from being mixed with other skills smoothly - primarily the fact that it has a cast time. Sound redundant? It should, because it is.

    I.E. Flurry -> Dark Flare. There is a significant delay in being able to cast Dark Flare straight after Flurry due to Flurry's animation being so short. This should not be the case - this leads to a scenario where cast time skills can not be properly chained and cast together with instant cast skills. It introduces excessive and unnecessary cast time delays which have a detrimental impact to their performance.

    Problem #2 is that there also seems to be animation checks in place. E.G. your character literally will not start the cast time until you character model reaches a position upon which the animation/cast time is determined to start. This can easily be verified by timing the amount of frames uppercut holds in the primed/charging position, and how many frames it takes to get to said position. The primed position is always within a very tight margin (unless lag) which is acceptable, but the actual character modeling can vary and can range from non-existent to taking upwards of a second to reach said position.

    Problem #3 is that we have no internal testing capabilities that will tell us with certainty that the internal post-global cooldown was infact removed. When channeled skills had their API data hidden (courtesy of the legendary @Dorrino ) we lost all available metrics to actually verify this change.

    TL;DR: ZOS has robbed us of the necessary tools to verify this change is working, much less as intended. Other factors in play which are making it impossible to identify what the actual problem is.

    Secondary TL;DR: Cast times/Channels suck and it would be easier to just turn them all into instant casts lol.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Savos_Saren
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    It’s even for non-channeled/cast time abilities as well.

    I’ve noticed that instant cast ground-based AOEs (ie: Eruption) doesn’t always cast in time. You’ll see the animated ring start to land on the ground- but then the effect doesn’t occur after you move.
    Want to enjoy the game more? Try both PvP (crybabies) and PvE (carebears). You'll get a better perspective on everyone's opinion.

    PC NA AD
    Savos Saren
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    So yeah, many threads on the topic often titled directly to specific skills. But nothing addressing it, NOS got some pretty good parses with Warden and Necro using Snipe. No conclusive tests to prove the outcome.

    I noticed a slight decrease in time between successive Snipe casts when spam weaving Snipe+Light attack, from 1.3-1.4 to 1.25-1.35. This was impossible to test in a full rotation. My old rotation lost 2k or so, I switched up the rotation and got back around 500-700 of the lost dps. Still behind live though and expect to stay behind.

    More importantly it does not address the inherent risk of cast time skills versus instant cast skills and its kind of disgusting.
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • Vapirko
    Vapirko
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    Does this also affect jabs? I was testing a basic jabs/LA weave on PTS and expected it to be higher than live but in fact it was 2-3k lower and I was wondering if that was just my inconsistency or what?
  • Toc de Malsvi
    Toc de Malsvi
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    Acid Spray was not showing the tool tip changes that it was supposed to have gotten in week one of the PTS. Since then I have tested and the Tool tips are buffed. On my DK Acid Spray is outperforming Snipe in my melee rotation and Acid Spray is a instant AOE skill. Snipe is only worth using if I'm at range and if I mix it with Acid Spray, just because I don't have enough ranged dots to make a real rotation.

    Speaking of ranged dots, Light Weight trap is worthless, its a single target DOT that barely outdamages Acid Spray now. I gained no dps using it and just lost sustain(DK cheap Acid Spray).
    Legendary Archer of Valenwood
    Bosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)
    Templar's are evil..
  • TheYKcid
    TheYKcid
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    Another nail in the coffin for dizzying swing.
    PC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
    Kalazar ChalhoubRedguard Nord Stamplar
    Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
    Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    It’s even for non-channeled/cast time abilities as well.

    I’ve noticed that instant cast ground-based AOEs (ie: Eruption) doesn’t always cast in time. You’ll see the animated ring start to land on the ground- but then the effect doesn’t occur after you move.

    This is a function of the skill being queue'd whilst the global cooldown is still in effect.
    0331
    0602
  • Minno
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    usmcjdking wrote: »
    It’s even for non-channeled/cast time abilities as well.

    I’ve noticed that instant cast ground-based AOEs (ie: Eruption) doesn’t always cast in time. You’ll see the animated ring start to land on the ground- but then the effect doesn’t occur after you move.

    This is a function of the skill being queue'd whilst the global cooldown is still in effect.

    Isn't this the same problem with eclipse too? Where players try to cc break before the gcd is ready?
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Minno
    Minno
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    TheYKcid wrote: »
    Another nail in the coffin for dizzying swing.

    Better than dark flare. I'm still getting 16k tooltip ;)
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
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    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • TumlinTheJolly
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    Still no word on this. Not reassuring at all. 😕
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    Still no word on this. Not reassuring at all. 😕

    I see you bumped the relevant threads xD They will eventually see it, maybe...
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • Stibbons
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    Dark Flare suffered even more damage loss!
  • ilcavallo
    ilcavallo
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    susmitds wrote: »
    I tested Uppercut, Snipe on PTS by light weaving these attacks on a Stamplar.

    Uppercut DPS on Live - 17152

    Uppercut DPS on PTS same build - 15978

    Snipe DPS on Live - 16310

    Snipe DPS on PTS same build - 14525


    What is going on? GCD changes specifically mentioned DPS increase of 6% for Uppercut and same DPS for Snipe. Instead, it looks like a significant nerf for both. Also, weaving does not feel any better on the PTS.

    Also, I did see a significant improvement in DPS for channeled abilities, specifically Jabs, resulting in around 15% higher DPS and weaving in generally felt better for Jabs.

    Is GCD reduction bugged for Cast timed abilities?

    Color me shocked
  • TumlinTheJolly
    TumlinTheJolly
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    RIP.
  • Firstmep
    Firstmep
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    @ZOS_Gilliam @ZOS_BrianWheeler
    Can you guys please look into this?
    This was reported the first week of pts, wth numbers n all.
    These skills had their damage reduced based on the fact that they would be faster to weave/spam, which is not the case.
    Same goes for dark flare btw.
  • TumlinTheJolly
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    How did they botch this? Maybe the animations had 200ms finishing time but that could be canceled already? Very confused as to what is going on here. Skills feel no different. Skills test weaker now.
  • VaxtinTheWolf
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    It's not very well worded. But basically, if you spam the same ability, Like puncturing sweeps as an example, it will be faster when used in succession.

    I haven't tested it that much myself, but I also believe that means queuing another ability after using those skills will activate quicker as well.
    Edited by VaxtinTheWolf on May 21, 2019 9:24AM
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  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    It's well worded, it just didn't work on some iterations of the PTS ;) We did test it.
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • Minno
    Minno
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    It's not very well worded. But basically, if you spam the same ability, Like puncturing sweeps as an example, it will be faster when used in succession.

    I haven't tested it that much myself, but I also believe that means queuing another ability after using those skills will activate quicker as well.

    if they said "light attacks will be easier to fit in rotations" i would believe it. Because some channels/cast times before this were annoying to find that window in which to use them (like jabs had a very small window). But now its harder to fail a light attack after jabs.

    The only issue is there is a delay during the transition from the LA to the next skill. This is the issue of concern, and I dont think the devs understand that yet.
    Minno - DC - Forum-plar Extraordinaire
    - Guild-lead for MV
    - Filthy Casual
  • Elwendryll
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    I feel like this is working on live. I did some dungeoning tonight, including vMHK, vICP vFH, and weaving Wrecking Blow felt very good, and smooth. On the flesh Atronach of vICP, I did 46k dps (The highest I've ever done on a full vet boss fight), I didn't change anything from my build or my rotation, but everything felt smoother. I'll take a look at my combat logs to see if it is indeed working properly. Anyway, everything felt smooth and enjoyable.
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • TumlinTheJolly
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    Please check logs, as this was apparently not working as intended on PTS. I've benched my BG DK due to this change 😕 Decent change for PvE if it's working though.
  • Elwendryll
    Elwendryll
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    Please check logs, as this was apparently not working as intended on PTS. I've benched my BG DK due to this change 😕 Decent change for PvE if it's working though.

    I checked the log in game. There is [1.05-1.15] seconds between each cast, I suppose it's just the delay between the end of the ability and my button press, as I can't manually send a continuous input :p
    PC - EU - France - AD
    Main character: Qojikrin - Khajiit Sorcerer Tank/Stamina DD - since March 25, 2015.
    Guildmaster of Oriflamme: Focus on 4 player endgame content.
    Member of Brave Cat Trade, Panda Division and Toadhuggers.

    All 4-man trifectas - TTT, IR, GH
  • usmcjdking
    usmcjdking
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    I still contend that the postal GCD removal is, in fact, working as intended. Every single channeled skill is exceptionally smoother and more responsive with noticeably less lag/delay when casted singularily and independently. The issues I see are that there are simply animation hang times that prevent us from exploiting the GCD removal much akin to attack weaving exploiting the animation priority system.
    Edited by usmcjdking on May 30, 2019 3:27AM
    0331
    0602
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