Give it a few weeks and you'll have op magcro's about

Haashhtaag wrote: »

Can’t form an opinion because stamina morph of blastbones is bugged.

The baseline skill and both morphs are bugged.

Rhaegar75 wrote: »

am I right to think that StaCro is stronger than MagCRo?

I'm due to level one and I really can't be bothered to roll one and the discover that I need to change it all around and learn a different playstyle when I get to Lv50

Yes, Stamina Necromancer is better in an offensive role than Magicka Necromancer is. There are two class abilities that are worthwhile for offense in PvP, and Stamina gets a morph for each (and in the case of Blastbones, they get the hands-down superior morph). Stamina also has access to multiple other really good damaging abilities and passives from weapon skill lines, while Magicka does not.

Waffennacht wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

So far here’s my take from what I’ve seen leveling up in BGs:
- Abilities are all really powerful, as I’m coming from other classes they look OP. However, ability costs are crazy high
- To those who say the class lacks certain key abilities. You can find them all in weapon skill lines. What class doesn’t suck in pvp without weapon skill lines?
- survivability is amazing

From the Necros I’ve seen at 50, they ground out their levels and have no idea how to play their class. It’ll take maybe a month for people to get a handle on the class.

Weakness of the class is sustain. So OP abilities that cost a lot but you can’t spam without running out of resources. Sustain races will probably do well with the class. I went Khajit and am doing okay though.

Sounds like you're talking about stamina, because you don't get much outta destro line

Because many destro builds infact do not run any destro abilities, maybe 1.

But Stamina gets a WHOLE LOT outta weapon lines.

Again, like Warden, the mag version blows comparing to just about anything else

Hopefully ZOS has actually been taking in some of the feedback, and will eventually make some changes. Given how things have been with Magicka Warden over the past 2 years, though, I'm not holding my breath.

I've griped until I'm blue in the face about how bad Blastbones' pathing/AI is, about how easy it can be to shut down (and block if you can't shut it down), and how lacking the rest of the class offense is. And since the Destruction Staff skill line, Psijic skill line, Mage's Guild skill line, etc...aren't capable of filling in the gaps in offense, it leaves the class in a bad spot right now.

MassiveFumes wrote: »

Give it a few weeks and you'll have op magcro's about

I feel really confident in saying that this is absolutely not true, at least if we're talking about playing solo and/or in an offensive role. Would love to be wrong and for there to be something that I've missed, but I really don't think that'll end up being the case.

Datolite wrote: »

What's the consensus on Scythe in PvP?

Is it comparable to Sweeps? Are both morphs viable? Can you make a melee magcro with it? Or is it mostly for tanks?

Id say the scythe is mostly for tanks. It seems pretty expensive. Only tried the stam version of the scythe though.

I want to enjoy magcro, but finding it hard to, despite BB being bugged. I just feel like a weaker magden. I may just have to play stamcro instead if i want to enjoy necromancer.

Iskiab wrote: »

Datolite wrote: »

What's the consensus on Scythe in PvP?

Is it comparable to Sweeps? Are both morphs viable? Can you make a melee magcro with it? Or is it mostly for tanks?

Love Scythe as a Stamnecro. Strength of the class is tankiness and self healing from what I’ve seen so far, but I’m sub-50. A lot of times things work great and once you hit 50 you get wrecked so I’m not sure how it will hold up.

So far for stamnecro here’s what I’d say:

Strengths:
- self healing on scythe
- mitigation
- bonus dot damage

Weaknesses:
- sustain
- blastbones burst ineffective at range

I’m going for a tanky dot build and think the tool kit will work well. Still not sure about which weapons I’m going to use, leveled with S&B plus 2 hander, but can see 2h plus bow or S&B plus bow working well. Blastbones work best in melee range and I don’t think casting them on targets far away works well, outside the range of say shalks it doesn’t work well.

For magnecros who don’t like the class, think the issue is a lot of people are trying to play a necro like a sorc. Sorc are the ranged burst class and Necro can’t compete with sorc at their forte.

I haven’t leveled my magnecro yet to tell myself, but most comparisons are to sorcs so that’s the impression I’m getting.

Issue with magcro is BB is really their only hard hitting ability not counting ult. Skull is pretty bad for a spammable, shock in destro honestly does better and is faster and can be canceled easier. Boneyard isn't too great for pvp. Siphon is to damn small and only good for pve. The mag morph for skeletal mage is pretty bad and hits for almost nothing. No execute, and dont say the crit passive makes up for that since stam has that to along with weapon line executes.

Only thing magcro is kind of good at is staying alive. Other then that they really have nothing going on for them. BB is really just a worse version of shulks. But at least stam will usually be in melee range and has a chance of theirs going off.

Magcro is just not in a good spot right now.

Just play it like a magplar. Its the same, but much better.

Better ults, more sustain, better cleanse (both morphs outclass magplar cleanse by a ton), better spammables (both aoe and ranged), also Blastbones op af if played right, free BoL each 2 seconds from a pet (lol). Better self heal (since you can cleanse it and get free resources and/or use the other morph and cleanse everyone around u+heal for a ton+place an AoE HoT).

Ok, no gapcloser. Oh wait, Beckoning Armor.

AoE slow and root + minor maim.

Free on demand 15k+ aoe damage from a self synergy (+ a ton of resources via Undaunted passive). It also works wonders while sieging to leech AP, or put nbs out of stealth. Almost forgot, it also heals.

Do I need to say more?

.

Iskiab wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Just play it like a magplar. Its the same, but much better.

That’s a little harsh but somewhat true. Play it like a magplar part, but magplars also have huge effects which are in their favour and better sustain.

Think people coming from sorc will be disappointed with the burst, but for ranged burst Sorcs are easy and strong so it’s not a fair comparison.

I think it’ll be like magwardens. Some say magwardens are weak in pvp right now, and at the same time there are MagWarden 1vX videos taking on 10 people at once.

In the class summary it said the class was meant to be deep. I think that will hold up and those who master it will do well, and those that just spam the skulls will say the class sucks. Give it a month and you’ll see ‘Nerf Necros’ and ‘Necros suck and need a buff!’ threads.

There's a Nerf thread for everything. That's no barometer.

There's 1vX videos for like every class; that's no barometer.

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Just play it like a magplar. Its the same, but much better.

Better ults, more sustain, better cleanse (both morphs outclass magplar cleanse by a ton), better spammables (both aoe and ranged), also Blastbones op af if played right, free BoL each 2 seconds from a pet (lol). Better self heal (since you can cleanse it and get free resources and/or use the other morph and cleanse everyone around u+heal for a ton+place an AoE HoT).

Ok, no gapcloser. Oh wait, Beckoning Armor.

AoE slow and root + minor maim.

Free on demand 15k+ aoe damage from a self synergy (+ a ton of resources via Undaunted passive). It also works wonders while sieging to leech AP, or put nbs out of stealth. Almost forgot, it also heals.

Do I need to say more?

Have you actually played the class very much, or are you making snap judgements after reading the skill list on a website?

First off, the Intensive Mender morph of the Spirit Mender has a tooltip that's roughly half that of Render Flesh, which is what's about equal to Breath of Life in healing value. The other morph's heal is substantially lower, and in no way comparable to Breath of Life (though it provides 10% mitigation while active).

Secondly, Renewing Undeath needs a corpse within its area of effect in order to activate the Cleanse + HOT portions of the skill, which often makes it quite janky and difficult to utilize properly (outside of duels, anyway). If Blastbones was more reliable, the issue might be mitigated somewhat, but I still think it should be able to use corpses near the caster, and not only those at the target location. If you're looking to cleanse teammates, especially those that are under heavy fire, there's still nothing that compares to a Ritual synergy.

Also, it sounds like you think that Renewing Undeath and Expunge and two different morphs of the same ability, while they're actually two separate skills. Expunge is exclusively a self cleanse, and will remove either 2 or 4 negative effects, depending on the morph chosen. The morph that returns resources is the one that removes only 2 debuffs (vs 5 for a Templar's Ritual), and costs 1,940 health for each use.

Furthermore, it's incorrect to claim that Necromancers have a better "AOE Spammable" than Magicka Templars do. I'd consider Shards to be very much superior to Boneyard for PvP, even if it didn't have a useful synergy for teammates attached. The up-front damage + passives are very good for Shards, and put it well ahead of Boneyard (Blastbones isn't a spammable, and has some pretty big problems against decent players).

While it's true that you can use Avid Boneyard and get a self-usable synergy, it requires you to be in the very center of the AOE to use it, and in practice is extremely hard to land outside of AOE grinding in PvE (and even then it's sometimes easy to get pushed around and not be able to find the activation point). It's another skill that might look nice on paper, but in reality isn't particularly useful in PvP.

When it comes to the single target spammable...that's actually the only offensive Necromancer skill that I don't have a problem with. That said, it's nothing super special; the tooltip damage is 100% identical to Elemental Weapon, which Magicka Templar can utilize, with the differences coming down to a 20% damage bonus + up to 2 bounces on every third cast, vs the application of a status effect on every cast and the passive to gain a shield while blocking. I suppose the skull will also get a damage bonus vs Vampires, since it deals fire damage...still, it's not like there's some massive world of difference between the two skills.

Beckoning Armor is also not really comparable to a gap closer, or even to Silver Leash and Chains. It isn't controllable, and will only pull people that attack you - gap closers are vastly superior for chasing someone down. The pull on Beckoning Armor, like all pulls, will also provide CC immunity to the target, and will therefore sometimes be counterproductive (and who wants to let their armor buff run out just to be able to CC someone?) This skill is absurdly annoying to fight against, but the primary use for PvP is zerging or trolling, and even then Silver Leash and Chains are going to be more potent. Also, have you tried the new Templar gap closer yet? It's not bad at all.

He's a templar main whos thinking grass is greener on the other side.

I powerleveled magnecro and did lots of pvp past 2 days with it, solo & smallscale cyro + bgs - heres my short summary:

- Squishy: playing magnecro in a normal dps caster setup (light armor) feels like running around naked, no proactive class dmg mitigation, no escape tool - shield ulti helps a bit but incoming damage in general is still huge so you are forced into excessive use of mega costly flash heals or ward spamming even when using the double heal mender.

- Gimmicky: I felt forced to ban all tethers and skills which have corpse consumption mechanics as their main function from my bars, despite being soooo interesting in theory, they fail in pvp. Tethers get canceled as soon as you kite/hunt (which is all the time in smallscale pvp), cannibalize each other (can only be used once and sometimes use more than once corpse per ability usage) or have issues finding their corpse in time to be usable. This patches meta is so far dominated by people being very fast, everyone has major expedition - everyone has snare/immovability removal and immunity. In such a fast paced meta with so much incoming damage some skills fail to do there job reliably.

Whoever designed those skills has NO IDEA how pvp in this game works. Period.

A soul harvest mechanic (similar to psijic orbs) that just absorbs and saves 1 soul per corpse, floating around the player like a ressource that can be used like corpses now would have been so much more user friendly, reliable and actually fun to use. Opposed to the highly frustrating, unresponsive and unreliable mechanic that is now in place.

I'll add Blastbones here too, that skill going off like intended is just pure luck when not used in melee. It is far too hard to combo (or simply time) the ability's dmg reliably while moving fast or while your target is moving fast. We move fast this patch ALL THE TIME in pvp thanks to the balance changes. And terrain alone will be your biggest enemy, uneven terrain just freaks your blastbone out.

Again, conceptually a total fail. How can we have in 2019 (5 years after release) still have skills that have so many issues, that fail to launch simply due to terrain or target player streaking once into opposite direction - all of those things are out of control of the user. The quality of skills scale with the ability to control them, please adjust blastbones accordingly.

- Situational:
The above mentioned issues certainly contribute to the playstyle being situational, occasional awesome moments when everything combos well, but lots of frustrating periods of time inbetween where you perfectly rotate your skills but the good combos just wont happen due to class mechanics failing or being too unreliable timing wise.

The biggest issue here is the inherent design of ultimates, they all sound strong on paper - but compared to ususal suspects like Dawnbreaker, Permafrost or Leap they are all insanely expensive, very niche and easy to counter. I don't get why all 3 ultimates must be in category of being mega-expensive attached with multiple downsides (no ult-regen while in goliath, low radius + uptime on dmg ult, or being ult-blocked while waiting for that awesome rez ult moment that will never happen anyways). At least one ult being simple, targeted and allowing for high frequency usage would have made the kit so much richer.

So far my take on it, the one big question that has been forming in my head was:
Why did neither the developers nor the class reps (self-claimed PvP players) been having the same thoughts in DESIGN stage, the NDA testing and such. It is so obvious that many of those skills were solely thought about in stationary PvE Boss or trash pull fights and therefore have huge issues now in PvP.

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Mr_Nobody wrote: »

Just play it like a magplar. Its the same, but much better.

Better ults, more sustain, better cleanse (both morphs outclass magplar cleanse by a ton), better spammables (both aoe and ranged), also Blastbones op af if played right, free BoL each 2 seconds from a pet (lol). Better self heal (since you can cleanse it and get free resources and/or use the other morph and cleanse everyone around u+heal for a ton+place an AoE HoT).

Ok, no gapcloser. Oh wait, Beckoning Armor.

AoE slow and root + minor maim.

Free on demand 15k+ aoe damage from a self synergy (+ a ton of resources via Undaunted passive). It also works wonders while sieging to leech AP, or put nbs out of stealth. Almost forgot, it also heals.

Do I need to say more?

Have you actually played the class very much, or are you making snap judgements after reading the skill list on a website?

First off, the Intensive Mender morph of the Spirit Mender has a tooltip that's roughly half that of Render Flesh, which is what's about equal to Breath of Life in healing value. The other morph's heal is substantially lower, and in no way comparable to Breath of Life (though it provides 10% mitigation while active).

Secondly, Renewing Undeath needs a corpse within its area of effect in order to activate the Cleanse + HOT portions of the skill, which often makes it quite janky and difficult to utilize properly (outside of duels, anyway). If Blastbones was more reliable, the issue might be mitigated somewhat, but I still think it should be able to use corpses near the caster, and not only those at the target location. If you're looking to cleanse teammates, especially those that are under heavy fire, there's still nothing that compares to a Ritual synergy.

Also, it sounds like you think that Renewing Undeath and Expunge and two different morphs of the same ability, while they're actually two separate skills. Expunge is exclusively a self cleanse, and will remove either 2 or 4 negative effects, depending on the morph chosen. The morph that returns resources is the one that removes only 2 debuffs (vs 5 for a Templar's Ritual), and costs 1,940 health for each use.

Furthermore, it's incorrect to claim that Necromancers have a better "AOE Spammable" than Magicka Templars do. I'd consider Shards to be very much superior to Boneyard for PvP, even if it didn't have a useful synergy for teammates attached. The up-front damage + passives are very good for Shards, and put it well ahead of Boneyard (Blastbones isn't a spammable, and has some pretty big problems against decent players).

While it's true that you can use Avid Boneyard and get a self-usable synergy, it requires you to be in the very center of the AOE to use it, and in practice is extremely hard to land outside of AOE grinding in PvE (and even then it's sometimes easy to get pushed around and not be able to find the activation point). It's another skill that might look nice on paper, but in reality isn't particularly useful in PvP.

When it comes to the single target spammable...that's actually the only offensive Necromancer skill that I don't have a problem with. That said, it's nothing super special; the tooltip damage is 100% identical to Elemental Weapon, which Magicka Templar can utilize, with the differences coming down to a 20% damage bonus + up to 2 bounces on every third cast, vs the application of a status effect on every cast and the passive to gain a shield while blocking. I suppose the skull will also get a damage bonus vs Vampires, since it deals fire damage...still, it's not like there's some massive world of difference between the two skills.

Beckoning Armor is also not really comparable to a gap closer, or even to Silver Leash and Chains. It isn't controllable, and will only pull people that attack you - gap closers are vastly superior for chasing someone down. The pull on Beckoning Armor, like all pulls, will also provide CC immunity to the target, and will therefore sometimes be counterproductive (and who wants to let their armor buff run out just to be able to CC someone?) This skill is absurdly annoying to fight against, but the primary use for PvP is zerging or trolling, and even then Silver Leash and Chains are going to be more potent. Also, have you tried the new Templar gap closer yet? It's not bad at all.

He's a templar main whos thinking grass is greener on the other side.

I powerleveled magnecro and did lots of pvp past 2 days with it, solo & smallscale cyro + bgs - heres my short summary:

- Squishy: playing magnecro in a normal dps caster setup (light armor) feels like running around naked, no proactive class dmg mitigation, no escape tool - shield ulti helps a bit but incoming damage in general is still huge so you are forced into excessive use of mega costly flash heals or ward spamming even when using the double heal mender.

- Gimmicky: I felt forced to ban all tethers and skills which have corpse consumption mechanics as their main function from my bars, despite being soooo interesting in theory, they fail in pvp. Tethers get canceled as soon as you kite/hunt (which is all the time in smallscale pvp), cannibalize each other (can only be used once and sometimes use more than once corpse per ability usage) or have issues finding their corpse in time to be usable. This patches meta is so far dominated by people being very fast, everyone has major expedition - everyone has snare/immovability removal and immunity. In such a fast paced meta with so much incoming damage some skills fail to do there job reliably.

Whoever designed those skills has NO IDEA how pvp in this game works. Period.

A soul harvest mechanic (similar to psijic orbs) that just absorbs and saves 1 soul per corpse, floating around the player like a ressource that can be used like corpses now would have been so much more user friendly, reliable and actually fun to use. Opposed to the highly frustrating, unresponsive and unreliable mechanic that is now in place.

I'll add Blastbones here too, that skill going off like intended is just pure luck when not used in melee. It is far too hard to combo (or simply time) the ability's dmg reliably while moving fast or while your target is moving fast. We move fast this patch ALL THE TIME in pvp thanks to the balance changes. And terrain alone will be your biggest enemy, uneven terrain just freaks your blastbone out.

Again, conceptually a total fail. How can we have in 2019 (5 years after release) still have skills that have so many issues, that fail to launch simply due to terrain or target player streaking once into opposite direction - all of those things are out of control of the user. The quality of skills scale with the ability to control them, please adjust blastbones accordingly.

- Situational:
The above mentioned issues certainly contribute to the playstyle being situational, occasional awesome moments when everything combos well, but lots of frustrating periods of time inbetween where you perfectly rotate your skills but the good combos just wont happen due to class mechanics failing or being too unreliable timing wise.

The biggest issue here is the inherent design of ultimates, they all sound strong on paper - but compared to ususal suspects like Dawnbreaker, Permafrost or Leap they are all insanely expensive, very niche and easy to counter. I don't get why all 3 ultimates must be in category of being mega-expensive attached with multiple downsides (no ult-regen while in goliath, low radius + uptime on dmg ult, or being ult-blocked while waiting for that awesome rez ult moment that will never happen anyways). At least one ult being simple, targeted and allowing for high frequency usage would have made the kit so much richer.

So far my take on it, the one big question that has been forming in my head was:
Why did neither the developers nor the class reps (self-claimed PvP players) been having the same thoughts in DESIGN stage, the NDA testing and such. It is so obvious that many of those skills were solely thought about in stationary PvE Boss or trash pull fights and therefore have huge issues now in PvP.

Thank you very much, this was very informative. Sadly These are exactly my thougts too though. Because of that I actually only Run "reliable" skills and try to benefit from the 10%dot chance:

5x necro
5x backbar of ur choice
2x Monster of ur choice
1x brp destro

Bar1:
Pulsar, scythe, skeleton mage/Graveyard, Wall, x - Dawnbreaker

Bar2:
Hexproof, Ghost healer, harness, Rat, armorbuff- undo

This is from pure 1vX (kiting/fighting min. 3 Players). I honestly dont plan to kill good players Outside of ulti burst, but I do play a lot warden solo and its basically the same - waiting for ulti and then so dmg, repeat. So im used to that playstyle.

Planning on using frost staff.

All the other abilities Look nice on Paper, but I cant See them being useful in actual outnumbered combat Situations.

susmitds wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

Datolite wrote: »

What's the consensus on Scythe in PvP?

Is it comparable to Sweeps? Are both morphs viable? Can you make a melee magcro with it? Or is it mostly for tanks?

Love Scythe as a Stamnecro. Strength of the class is tankiness and self healing from what I’ve seen so far, but I’m sub-50. A lot of times things work great and once you hit 50 you get wrecked so I’m not sure how it will hold up.

So far for stamnecro here’s what I’d say:

Strengths:
- self healing on scythe
- mitigation
- bonus dot damage

Weaknesses:
- sustain
- blastbones burst ineffective at range

I’m going for a tanky dot build and think the tool kit will work well. Still not sure about which weapons I’m going to use, leveled with S&B plus 2 hander, but can see 2h plus bow or S&B plus bow working well. Blastbones work best in melee range and I don’t think casting them on targets far away works well, outside the range of say shalks it doesn’t work well.

For magnecros who don’t like the class, think the issue is a lot of people are trying to play a necro like a sorc. Sorc are the ranged burst class and Necro can’t compete with sorc at their forte.

I haven’t leveled my magnecro yet to tell myself, but most comparisons are to sorcs so that’s the impression I’m getting.

If Tankyness is the thing, doesn't stamNBs do it better?

-Best mitigation
-Better self heals with Cloak+Minor Protection
-Better burst skill
-Better fear
-Power extraction hits harder than Scythe with more range and angle
-Better mobility
-Better execute
-Bonus crit damage
-Better sustain
-In class gap closer
-Pet with Minor Maim and teleportation
-Better magicka utility

Only thing Stamcro has over Stamblade is access to Purge

Not really. A stamblade can mitigate more damage in theory but has to sacrifice damage to do it (no relentless proc fires). I also don’t agree about the execute.

I much prefer stamnecro to stamblade because of better aoe and better self healing.

Have you guys considered wearing Chudan as a monster set? If you’re not interested in a pull.. and no one’s talking about the other morph for some weird reason... Chudan will let you add another ability.

@DokThor90 I like all the abilities you listed in your loadout but think you’re missing some key necro ones. Try playing with the ones with the 3% flat damage, damage reduction and cost reduction. I think those three are the core skills that you should try to fit into every Necro build if you can.

Imperial_Voice wrote: »

SpiderCultist wrote: »

necro is designed badly, being that said, have any of you tried to go more tanky? Like chudan or bone pirate + another defensive set maybe (for magmancer)

come on, we cannot let the nec die soon after being born

Its not our responbility to try and fix Necro's bad design, its Zenimax's.

Yep, personally speaking I came back after a 3 months break, looks like I'll take another 3 this summer, was hyped over the new class, not anymore after playing it and other feedback. It's a pity.